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Author Topic:   Christianity is Morally Bankrupt
Phat
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Posts: 18248
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


(1)
Message 33 of 652 (694198)
03-22-2013 11:08 PM
Reply to: Message 29 by GrimSqueaker
03-22-2013 7:25 AM


Re: Depends on the bylaws of the Chapter of Club Christian
grim writes:
I'm not an anti theist due to my own intellectual integrity BUT I would lean very heavily in that direction, as such I am 99.999999% that all the goodness and kindness (which is the vibe I'm getting from u) in you, begins and ends in u - the existence of a higher power would lessens that, and believe in one does yourself a disservice. Whatever you achieve in life you do so by the Grace of Jar and you should be damn proud of that. Any obstacle you over come or problem you squash, Grace of Jar again.
You and I are diametrically opposites. I am 99.9999% sure that God exists, and I would never dare to be proud of my own intellect and integrity. Additionally, your denial of Jesus in the flesh as Gods Son is an antichrist spirit, and dare I say that this is the entire reason for your topic. Humans are bankrupt insofar as our ability to do anything good within us...apart from God. Indeed, we owe our very lives to Him. I have seen evidence of a supernatural reality, and I can only warn you of your inner humanistic pride regarding your own efforts. This belief will fail.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 29 by GrimSqueaker, posted 03-22-2013 7:25 AM GrimSqueaker has replied

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Phat
Member
Posts: 18248
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 36 of 652 (694211)
03-23-2013 3:54 AM
Reply to: Message 35 by GrimSqueaker
03-23-2013 1:22 AM


Confirmation Bias works both ways
1) I have heard extraordinary evidence of demonic possession/oppression in that I clearly heard several differnet voices at once come out of a guy...in my own living room. There was quite simply no other valid explanations as to why this occurred and two others also witnessed this event.
why would we ever expect a supernatural explanation to win out?
You wouldn't, because your bias leans the other way to begin with. You have said yourself you don't want any sort of supernatural entity to trump your human reasoning anyway. You are, in fact, proud of your ability to rationalize and explain without resorting to any need to surrender. Thus, I never would expect you to accept any claim...valid or otherwise
In fact, I would assert that human understanding by majority tries to disprove rather than prove God. We simply by nature would prefer to be our own gods.
Answer me this, though. Is it logical for the sum of intelligence located on a virtual dust speck among one of many hundreds of billions of galaxies to defiantly limit its collective belief on human wisdom alone? Sounds a bit pompous and defiant to me.
Edited by Phat, : No reason given.
Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

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Phat
Member
Posts: 18248
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 37 of 652 (694214)
03-23-2013 4:13 AM
Reply to: Message 23 by Coyote
03-21-2013 8:17 PM


Re: On original sin
Chuck Colson writes:
Christians can not support Rand’s philosophy and Christ’s teachings. The choice is simple: Ayn Rand or Jesus Christ. We must choose one and forsake the other.

My Take: Christianity and Ayn Rand's philosophy are 2 distinct religions

Rand's philosophy is far from "proven" except in the singlularly philosphical point that people are self-centered and that erality is independent of consciousness. Her precept that the greatest moral good is your own selfish happiness is childish and reflects the maturity level of a teenager and we see how this idea has become the moral center of American society already and look at the disasterous results. We have hundreds of millions of people seeking nothing but their own happiness and hurting others in the process. We have a society of happy people (happiness is temporary and fleeting) who are miserable and "in need" of drugs to keep them from violence, depression and suicide. Moral objectivism is a failure and we all see it.
AMEN to that!
Edited by Phat, : No reason given.
Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

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Phat
Member
Posts: 18248
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 48 of 652 (694236)
03-23-2013 11:14 AM
Reply to: Message 41 by Omnivorous
03-23-2013 8:31 AM


Re: Confirmation Bias works both ways
Omni writes:
I conclude that only our own intelligence can explore and explain the universe; you conclude our intelligence should be supplanted by beliefs derived from ancient texts that recommend blood sacrifice, slavery and infanticide.
To support your conclusion, you essentially make the creationist argument that science is a faith like any other faith, its adherents and practitioners blinded by a prior i beliefs.
MY beliefs are not derived only from ancient texts. My beliefs are derived from a God who lives today and is as relevant as today's news. Obviously, one who does not believe in such a God has, in my estimation, never encountered such a God...so I can understand the reluctance to accept my beliefs. As for Science, I realize that it is not a faith and is a method and a discipline, to be sure. I also recognize that for those who have no internal(nevermind external) evidence of a living God, it is much more sensible to accept human intellect and discovery as the only way to go.
For me, there is ample evidence that humans are flawed, and in fact even selfish and manipulative creatures. We do have altruistic traits as well, and I will admit to a bias towards original sin...the Bible speaks of such behaviors as being very typical of people. I certainly don't limit my belief in the Bible to the attitudes and beliefs that it shows were done in the past...I take my feelings and actions at today's face value much as I take any of yours. I firmly believe, however, in a living and interactive God that is well aware of human wisdom, progress,potential, and limitation.

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Phat
Member
Posts: 18248
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 103 of 652 (694836)
03-29-2013 11:48 AM
Reply to: Message 102 by Jazzns
03-29-2013 11:27 AM


Re: Still missing the point
The belief that a guy on a throne has the ability to ETERNALLY torture you for the choices you made in an 80 year lifespan is an immoral belief.
The way I look at it, we essentially torture ourselves. It is our choice...the actor merely set the parameters. Our question is why the actor chose to allow for such parameters. Perhaps the question should be "why we cant have our cake and eat it too?"
Or perhaps the question should be "why such drastic parameters"?

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Phat
Member
Posts: 18248
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 143 of 652 (694940)
03-31-2013 8:07 AM
Reply to: Message 142 by Tangle
03-31-2013 5:01 AM


A Tangled Web
Tangle writes:
Biblically or otherwise, it's wicked to punish people who lead good lives just because they find that the evidence for a creator is inadequate to support a belief or because they were born in the wrong country to the wrong parents.
Provided they were never given an option to reconsider, I might agree....
The question is, if you died or were near death and Jesus suddenly appeared to you either literally or strong metaphorically and asked you to accept Him, would you defiantly continue rejecting Him based on your own "precious" yet worthless free will? Or would you reconsider..... The issue is not what a God could or would hypothetically do to you....the issue is how you would respond to Him....assuming you became aware of an undeniable possibility...at least...of His existence.

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Phat
Member
Posts: 18248
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 145 of 652 (694943)
03-31-2013 8:33 AM
Reply to: Message 144 by Larni
03-31-2013 8:15 AM


Re: It's all about the heart
A lot depends on which destinations are available in reality.
Assuming that God exists...and further assuming relationship/acknowledgement is found only through Jesus...it would be silly to reject God and/or Jesus based on personal or societal interpretation of the Bible. The issue would involve a relationship with an active living entity.
Too many people reject God based only on Biblical interpretation.
Of course, for many, that's all they have to go on is the characters in a book.
Assuming the ultimate decision would be made on meeting the character(of Jesus Christ) I could see no reason anyone would reject Him...unless they held their free will in higher regard....and simply chose rejecting.
Edited by Phat, :

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Phat
Member
Posts: 18248
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 161 of 652 (694963)
03-31-2013 3:30 PM
Reply to: Message 88 by GrimSqueaker
03-25-2013 1:35 PM


An Interesting Topic On Easter
Grim writes:
..."A God is a construct of the people within a certain belief system...
Or...God exists regardless of what people do or don't believe regarding His existence.
Of course, critics would then ask me why I expected said God to be the Christian One...in which case I would only be able to say that I met Jesus...which then leads to my belief that all people on earth will meet Jesus some day. But again, how do I explain and/or defend my belief further?

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Phat
Member
Posts: 18248
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 162 of 652 (694965)
03-31-2013 3:43 PM
Reply to: Message 156 by jar
03-31-2013 12:05 PM


Re: it's all about knowledge and honesty.
No, the Bible is a collection, an anthology, of what the authors of the particular passage believed at a given time in history and within a given mythos.
So you don't think its possible that authors could be inspired from a source apart from themselves?

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Phat
Member
Posts: 18248
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 265 of 652 (715034)
12-31-2013 4:42 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by jar
03-21-2013 4:15 PM


Re: Depends on the bylaws of the Chapter of Club Christian
jar writes:
I believe I will be judged after I die, judged based on what I personally did with my life. I believe all of us, Jew and Muslim, Atheist and Agnostic, Wiccan and Satanist, Buddhist and Hindu, Animist and Sun worshiper, Taoist and followers of the Norse Gods will be judged, based on our personal behavior and our personal capabilities. And if there is a Heaven, I believe and expect far more Jews and Muslims, Atheists and Agnostics, Wiccans and Satanists, Buddhists and Hindus, Animists and Sun worshipers, Taoists and followers of the Norse Gods will be admitted, welcomed, than Christians.
So God won't welcome Christians based on their behavior, yet will give everyone else a break? I wonder what the look on your face will be if your credentials are challenged at the front door??
"Do you accept Jesus"?
"what do you mean?"
"Just answer the question---to whom do you credit your presence here today?"
"Why shucks...i figger it has to be on me!"
"NEXT!"

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 Message 18 by jar, posted 03-21-2013 4:15 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 266 by jar, posted 12-31-2013 4:48 PM Phat has replied
 Message 269 by ringo, posted 01-04-2014 11:12 AM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18248
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 267 of 652 (715349)
01-04-2014 11:04 AM
Reply to: Message 266 by jar
12-31-2013 4:48 PM


Re: Depends on the bylaws of the Chapter of Club Christian
It would be laughter and "Works for me."
So in other words you wouldn't worship a God that was closer to the dogmatic One and less the jar-imagined One?
St.Peter: Jesus died for you so that you could have a chance at getting in.
jar: You mean to tell me that those name-it-and-claim-it club christians were right?
St.Peter: Not exactly...in fact nobody has gotten in on their own merits.
jar:Well shucks, Pete..all I did was the best I could...I figgered I owed life at least that much....is it ok if y'all put me in the section that the atheists,agnostics, and Wiccans are a sittin. I dont get along with the Ike & Only Imagine crowd very well....
St.Peter: OK...but I must warn you...Logic,Reason,and Reality are a lot different than you expected....
jar: I kin hardly wait to start learn'n all over again!
St.Peter: Welcome home, jar. Go gather round the fire and set a spell...there may be at least one other Episcopalian over there, but to you i'm sure it doesn't matter...
Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
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Phat
Member
Posts: 18248
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 270 of 652 (715355)
01-04-2014 11:45 AM
Reply to: Message 269 by ringo
01-04-2014 11:12 AM


Spare Change Mentality.
Its not as if you would have an alternative...but lets assume for a moment that you did. Lets assume that,largely due to complaints such as yours, God allowed you other lines to stand in. What type of exchange would you expect? A place where you still had free will and could eternally exist however you wanted to exist? What makes you want to hang on to your perceptions so much?
jar,from his belief statement writes:
I believe that we will be judged individually and by the standards appropriate to the individual.
The Bible writes, (paraphrasing here), that to whom much is given much is expected.
I think that is accurate, and the base for my belief that most Christians will end up as Goats, not among the Sheep. They have been given much, the whole instruction book as well as a personal tutor. The sad part is that most will never get it.
Many believe all are born damned and sinful, and that they have some sinful nature. It's not their fault, mankind is fallen. But they have this Get Outta Hell Free card.
Unfortunately, when it comes to judgement day I believe they will see the card stamped "Not Valid".
GOD will judge us with full knowledge. We cannot lie, bribe, flatter or fake our way though that.
If GOD exists, how do you expect to be judged? Based only on your heart for homeless people who have come to know you as "that spare-change guy"?
I dunno why it bugs me so much the idea that we are always charged to give give give...regardless of whether rogue pirates or drunk outcasts deserve it or not.
Maybe this is one of those little things that will decide my fate. All I know is I don't deserve to be broke...and find it hard to give what I barely have.
Would Jesus forgive me for my selfishness? OR would I be allowed into heaven based on the same standard that I used to judge who deserved my spare change and who didn't?

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Replies to this message:
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Phat
Member
Posts: 18248
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 271 of 652 (715356)
01-04-2014 11:50 AM
Reply to: Message 268 by jar
01-04-2014 11:09 AM


Club Christian god deserves pity?
Why would such a god deserve anything more than pity?
Who are we to determine what God deserves or does not deserve?
I think you have a wrong idea of God when you insist that the book says that we should judge Him.
How did we earn such a right? How could we even begin to have the credentials to judge the Creator Of All Things Seen And Unseen?
why would we dare think that God deserved pity anyway?
Who made US God?

This message is a reply to:
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Phat
Member
Posts: 18248
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 273 of 652 (715400)
01-05-2014 8:12 AM
Reply to: Message 272 by jar
01-04-2014 12:52 PM


Re: Club Christian god deserves pity?
Using logic, the Creator of all seen and unseen would not steer us wrong. He gave us brains initially, and my hope is that He would help us. Why should He help us? The core of my belief and hope in life, love, and liberty is that God, if God exists, is good and wants us to survive and prosper.
Were this not true, I sure as hell wouldn't trust humanity. Studies done in New Orleans, after Katrina showed that anarchy and lawlessness surfaced in as little as four days.
Another reason for my faith? My hope and prayer would be that I didn't become that which I feared. (With apologies to the Somali pirate comment)

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Phat
Member
Posts: 18248
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 277 of 652 (715414)
01-05-2014 11:36 AM
Reply to: Message 276 by jar
01-05-2014 10:09 AM


Re: learn how to use reason and logic
It all flows through Jesus Christ. The creator of all seen and unseen cannot be known or understood apart from Jesus Christ---at least for we humans. Perhaps whales have a different method of sharing communion.
But then again, God is not simply a product of our imagination....I could be wrong.
Add by edit: Do you believe that God is alienated from our idea of Him? If so, is it possible that Jesus death was every bit as important as His life...in order to provide reconciliation?
Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

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