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Author Topic:   Christianity is Morally Bankrupt
jar
Member (Idle past 384 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 6 of 652 (693992)
03-21-2013 10:05 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by GrimSqueaker
03-20-2013 4:29 PM


Depends on the bylaws of the Chapter of Club Christian
As a Cradle Creedal Christian raised in a Christian household and educated in Christian schools I'd agree that Christianity such as what you describe would be morally bankrupt and really really silly to boot.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by GrimSqueaker, posted 03-20-2013 4:29 PM GrimSqueaker has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 7 by GrimSqueaker, posted 03-21-2013 10:12 AM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 384 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


(1)
Message 9 of 652 (694003)
03-21-2013 10:47 AM
Reply to: Message 7 by GrimSqueaker
03-21-2013 10:12 AM


Re: Depends on the bylaws of the Chapter of Club Christian
As I said, it depends on the bylaws of whichever Chapter of Club Christian you were raised in.
In your OP you said:
1 - Devine atonement for Sin is a moral loop hole.
If a person does wrong the proper path to righting that wrong is to make recompense to the individual who has been wronged and/or society, prayer and other wishful thinking are moot in comparison to this
I agree, and that is why every service in the Chapter of Club Christian I belong to has a process to address that. The first step is to become aware of the wrongs you do, to acknowledge those wrongs particularly to yourself, to try to make atonement and to try not to repeat the mistakes.
2 - Heaven and Hell are Unjust.
All human lifes have a very limited scope for both the good and the ill that they can do, no person can ever rack up enough "Karma" either good or bad to justify an eternity of anything. Eternal reward seem dubious and eternal torture down right barbaric
Heaven and hell are neither just nor unjust. Again, what a particular Chapter of Club Christian teaches about heaven and hell may well be. But very little of that is justified Biblically.
3 - Vicarious Redemption.
The crucifixion of Jesus for the atonement of sins is immoral, no person should ever be able to take moral responsibility for another. Certainly one can help someone else shoulder a burden in many ways but no one can take away someone else's responsibility for their actions. This central tenant strikes at the very idea of personal morality
Again, I agree. As a Christian I find that concept belittles and trivializes Jesus as well as turns Christianity into a cheap "what's in it for me; I got my 'get outta hell card' " religion.
4 - Freedom of Choice.
To expect everyone to fall in under a system whether they want to or not, to leave them no option to opt out is tyrannical and down right abusive. If you were born into a community or joined one who's rules you did not agree with you would be able to leave (although it could be difficult, think of the Berlin Wall for example) - Christianity offers no such claus
That says little about Christianity but does make GOD out to be a real asshole. But it's an easy sell and so is marketed by many Chapters of Club Christian. But not ALL Chapters of Club Christian.
5 - Original Sin and Sins of the Father.
Personal responsibility and morality mean little to nothing in a culture where the vilification for crimes can be passed from one generation to the next.
Yup. There is really only very, very weak to non-existent support in the Bible for the concept of Original Sin. Again, that's an easy sell and so many Chapters of Club Christian market that nonsense.
6 - Thought Crimes.
Due to the mythic properties of the Christian god he is aware of what your thinking and judges you on it. This is a psychologically damaging and again grossly immoral standing as thoughts should never be subject to such critic, indeed in the case of Intrusive Thoughts (a common symptom of many psychological illnesses including stress and depression) particularly harmful and unfair as a person may be suffering from their own thoughts anyway and would require compassion and understanding not feelings of guilt and shame, which they probably are already feeling
I think you are confusing Christianity and Santa Claus.
The issue is not that Christianity is morally bankrupt but rather the Christianity that was sold to you is both morally bankrupt and pretty much brain dead.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by GrimSqueaker, posted 03-21-2013 10:12 AM GrimSqueaker has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 10 by GrimSqueaker, posted 03-21-2013 12:35 PM jar has replied
 Message 298 by Phat, posted 11-22-2019 3:25 AM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 384 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 11 of 652 (694027)
03-21-2013 12:41 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by GrimSqueaker
03-21-2013 12:35 PM


Re: Depends on the bylaws of the Chapter of Club Christian
Well I've made about 20,000+ posts here at EvC, many dealing with just that, trying to explain my beliefs, so it's unlikely I can sum it up in one post even if I forgo spelling, but you can start with Belief Statement - jar and once you work through that thread we can go to the next one.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by GrimSqueaker, posted 03-21-2013 12:35 PM GrimSqueaker has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 12 by GrimSqueaker, posted 03-21-2013 12:50 PM jar has not replied
 Message 14 by GrimSqueaker, posted 03-21-2013 1:08 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 384 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 15 of 652 (694039)
03-21-2013 1:11 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by GrimSqueaker
03-21-2013 1:08 PM


Re: Depends on the bylaws of the Chapter of Club Christian
Feel free to pick.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by GrimSqueaker, posted 03-21-2013 1:08 PM GrimSqueaker has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 17 by GrimSqueaker, posted 03-21-2013 1:26 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 384 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 18 of 652 (694079)
03-21-2013 4:15 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by GrimSqueaker
03-21-2013 1:26 PM


Re: Depends on the bylaws of the Chapter of Club Christian
Why do I believe the way I do?
Because my belief is the product of my experiences, education, introspection and contemplation.
How can I prove it?
Don't be silly. I can't prove it as long as I am alive and would not even try to do so. I can explain why I think a Christian position as you outlined in the OP is so ridiculous that at best it could be considered a caricature or farce.
You question the necessity of my God? Okay, that's fine. What possible effect could that have on either my beliefs or reality?
As to eternal damnation, like everyone else that's honest in this world I have no clue about what an afterlife might be like, whether there would be eternal torment.
You said "I suppose as a system of belief worship relies essentially on an element of fear - without that I dunno, why bother I suppose."
Why must there be an element of fear? Granted that's a cheap and easy marketing gimmick, IBM became very successful using FUD (Fear, Uncertainty and Doubt) as their marketing strategy. It really works well for the Christian hucksters selling salvation, but it still smells of dishonesty.
I believe I have a duty to follow the teaching of the path I've chosen and a charge to live my life according to the set of standards built into that path.
I believe I will be judged after I die, judged based on what I personally did with my life. I believe all of us, Jew and Muslim, Atheist and Agnostic, Wiccan and Satanist, Buddhist and Hindu, Animist and Sun worshiper, Taoist and followers of the Norse Gods will be judged, based on our personal behavior and our personal capabilities. And if there is a Heaven, I believe and expect far more Jews and Muslims, Atheists and Agnostics, Wiccans and Satanists, Buddhists and Hindus, Animists and Sun worshipers, Taoists and followers of the Norse Gods will be admitted, welcomed, than Christians.
As to having saved myself? Nonsense. There is no way I can save myself. If I am saved it will only be through the Grace of GOD.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by GrimSqueaker, posted 03-21-2013 1:26 PM GrimSqueaker has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 29 by GrimSqueaker, posted 03-22-2013 7:25 AM jar has replied
 Message 265 by Phat, posted 12-31-2013 4:42 PM jar has replied
 Message 293 by Phat, posted 02-17-2014 4:51 AM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 384 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 30 of 652 (694124)
03-22-2013 9:53 AM
Reply to: Message 29 by GrimSqueaker
03-22-2013 7:25 AM


Re: Depends on the bylaws of the Chapter of Club Christian
You are free to "deeply dislike" that position even though your post shows that you are totally clueless about that position.
That position has absolutely nothing to do with what I accomplish or fail to accomplish in this life.
Your quote from Voltaire is also totally irrelevant to that position.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 29 by GrimSqueaker, posted 03-22-2013 7:25 AM GrimSqueaker has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 384 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 44 of 652 (694230)
03-23-2013 10:50 AM
Reply to: Message 34 by GrimSqueaker
03-23-2013 1:14 AM


From what I see you give some credit to a supernatural being for the good in ur life
I am assuming you meant this as a reply to my Message 18. If not then just disregard what follows.
I believe that all that is, seen and unseen was created by GOD and so I am grateful for my very existence. Yes, I do give credit to GOD for the good in my life but that has nothing to do with the content of Message 18.
The part that you objected to in Message 29 was:
jar writes:
"As to having saved myself? Nonsense. There is no way I can save myself. If I am saved it will only be through the Grace of GOD."
That sentence refers to a judgement of my behavior after I have died.
I understand that I am fully responsible for my behavior.
I find the concept of "Original Sin" just a weak and pitiful attempt to avoid responsibility. It's easily marketed.
I find the concept of Jesus death as payment for sins trivializes and diminishes Jesus and that it's just another easy out way to avoid taking responsibility. It's easily marketed.
To assume in addition that Jesus death only pays for the sins of some sycophant cult makes GOD really look imbecilic, dimwitted, doltish, pitiful and evil.
But I am also honest enough to know that I have not lived up to either my full potential or to the charge I have been given.
If there is an afterlife and a judgement, I know that I failed overall. When judged, the verdict will be just that; I have not done all I should have done and did things I should not have done.
If I am forgiven though can only be by the Grace of GOD.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by GrimSqueaker, posted 03-23-2013 1:14 AM GrimSqueaker has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 384 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 128 of 652 (694891)
03-30-2013 1:22 PM
Reply to: Message 127 by Tangle
03-30-2013 12:30 PM


Re: It's all about the heart
Will you bring real beer and BBQ?

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 127 by Tangle, posted 03-30-2013 12:30 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 129 by Tangle, posted 03-30-2013 1:53 PM jar has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 384 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 136 of 652 (694917)
03-30-2013 9:22 PM
Reply to: Message 131 by Tangle
03-30-2013 3:48 PM


Re: It's all about the heart
How come there is room for you to disagree with other Christians who absolutely know, I'm going straight to hell without passing go?
He might be honest.
It really is that simple.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 131 by Tangle, posted 03-30-2013 3:48 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 137 by Tangle, posted 03-31-2013 3:24 AM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 384 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 150 of 652 (694948)
03-31-2013 10:03 AM
Reply to: Message 137 by Tangle
03-31-2013 3:24 AM


Re: It's all about the heart
But the important part, the "honest" part, is that he understands that it is a matter of his belief while there are those who would claim that they "know".

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 137 by Tangle, posted 03-31-2013 3:24 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 151 by Tangle, posted 03-31-2013 10:26 AM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 384 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 152 of 652 (694950)
03-31-2013 10:39 AM
Reply to: Message 151 by Tangle
03-31-2013 10:26 AM


it's all about knowledge and honesty.
Basically the "don't know" answer followed by some wishful thinking, tells me some difficult problems are being avoided - not least the fact that the bible itself is pretty clear on the fact.
Have you ever read the Bible?
If so, then you should realize that the Bible is very seldom clear about anything. It is filled with inconsistencies, contradictions and factual errors.
The author of John might be clear, but that is NOT "the Bible".
A great example is to follow the changes made in the Great Commission (the charges Jesus placed on the Disciples) over time.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 151 by Tangle, posted 03-31-2013 10:26 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 154 by Tangle, posted 03-31-2013 11:11 AM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 384 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 156 of 652 (694957)
03-31-2013 12:05 PM
Reply to: Message 154 by Tangle
03-31-2013 11:11 AM


Re: it's all about knowledge and honesty.
So just what IS the bible - Answer, again, the bits you've rationalised and choose to believe
No, the Bible is a collection, an anthology, of what the authors of the particular passage believed at a given time in history and within a given mythos.
Whatever - you're still left with the concept of hell, which I say is unjust because it requires a belief in Christ above all other matters, it must therefore exclude good people who don't/can't believe and punish bad people disproportionately.
Well no, I am not left "with the concept of hell, which I say is unjust because it requires a belief in Christ above all other matters," and don't believe that "it must therefore exclude good people who don't/can't believe and punish bad people disproportionately". As a very good friend on mine, an Episcopal Priest said "Hell? Fuggitabutit!"
The only explanation I've heard for that analysis is that God has his own morality and we can't know it.
If that is true, then you have NOT been listening.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 154 by Tangle, posted 03-31-2013 11:11 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 162 by Phat, posted 03-31-2013 3:43 PM jar has replied
 Message 165 by Tangle, posted 03-31-2013 5:09 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 384 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 164 of 652 (694967)
03-31-2013 3:50 PM
Reply to: Message 162 by Phat
03-31-2013 3:43 PM


Re: it's all about knowledge and honesty.
It is irrelevant. Since the authors each present different stories, often mutually exclusive stories it is clear that the inspiration was either faulty or inconsistent.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 162 by Phat, posted 03-31-2013 3:43 PM Phat has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 384 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 166 of 652 (694971)
03-31-2013 5:13 PM
Reply to: Message 165 by Tangle
03-31-2013 5:09 PM


Re: it's all about knowledge and honesty.
Too funny.
Why should you listen to any of us?
But if you were to be honest you would not have said "The only explanation I've heard for that analysis is that God has his own morality and we can't know it." because you have been given other explanations.
So again, why should you listen to any of us?

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 165 by Tangle, posted 03-31-2013 5:09 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 168 by Tangle, posted 03-31-2013 5:24 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 384 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 172 of 652 (694977)
03-31-2013 5:48 PM
Reply to: Message 168 by Tangle
03-31-2013 5:24 PM


Re: it's all about knowledge and honesty.
Tangle writes:
jar writes:
But if you were to be honest you would not have said "The only explanation I've heard for that analysis is that God has his own morality and we can't know it." because you have been given other explanations.
That response was to Purple's and GDR's posts - they differ only in that Purple outrightly says it and GDR accepts that he doesn't know (the mind of God is inferred). If you have another explanation I missed it and will happily consider it.
Actually it was a reply to me and the context was as follows.
Tangle writes:
So just what IS the bible - Answer, again, the bits you've rationalised and choose to believe
Whatever - you're still left with the concept of hell, which I say is unjust because it requires a belief in Christ above all other matters, it must therefore exclude good people who don't/can't believe and punish bad people disproportionately.
The only explanation I've heard for that analysis is that God has his own morality and we can't know it.
As I and others have pointed out to you, no, we are not left with the concept of hell, which you say is unjust because it requires a belief in Christ above all other matters, it must therefore exclude good people who don't/can't believe and punish bad people disproportionately.
I am left with agreement that such a concept would be unjust; and perhaps even more, makes that God look like a picayune despot.
The exchange had absolutely nothing to do with "the mind of God" or using "the mind of God" to justify what seems as unjust behavior.
BUT, it is also certainly possible that I might be totally wrong with what I believe and in fact there is a God who is so petty, so peculiar that it does condemn all those who do not believe in that particular God to eternal torment.
If that's the case, then it will be the case and if so, then I guess you will suffer eternal torment and I will certainly agree that will be unjust but also really glad it's you and not me.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 168 by Tangle, posted 03-31-2013 5:24 PM Tangle has not replied

  
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