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Author Topic:   Christianity is Morally Bankrupt
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 346 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 24 of 652 (694096)
03-21-2013 8:40 PM
Reply to: Message 23 by Coyote
03-21-2013 8:17 PM


Re: On original sin
I got a sense of the concept of Original Sin sometime during the period when I was becoming a believer, back in the 80s, and far from Coyote's take on it for me it was like a brilliant light went on that illuminated this dark world. I felt that finally I had an explanation for the evils in this world that otherwise have no explanation. To my mind the doctrine is essential and precious for that reason. It takes a chaotic world in which people do horrible things to each other and makes it understandable.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 346 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 31 of 652 (694190)
03-22-2013 9:35 PM
Reply to: Message 27 by Tangle
03-22-2013 6:25 AM


Re: On original sin
You found a myth that explained it in a Grimm's Story way. You didn't find the explanation.

Oh but I did find the explanation, and it explains just about everything.

The problem you have is that you needed an explanation other than the real and obvious one, which is that we're descended from animals that have to fight other animals for their survival. So we have many of those attributes.

We are beginning to find our way out of our upbringing through our intellect and our secular institutions. We no longer have need for mythology to provide the reasons why we are what we are. So we can finally do something about it.

What a bunch of pontificating bombast.

Funny how you think you can assert your view as if it were unassailable truth, and expand on it with your evolutionized mythos as if that adds anything to the assertion, just the usual fantasy belief system blah blah blah but somehow it gets a pass as if it really meant something.

Well I can assert mine too, and mine IS unassailable truth.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 27 by Tangle, posted 03-22-2013 6:25 AM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 346 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 43 of 652 (694229)
03-23-2013 10:39 AM
Reply to: Message 38 by Tangle
03-23-2013 4:15 AM


Re: On original sin
It isn't my view, I'm not inventing this, I'm simply reminding you of everyday facts that you prefer to ignore or deny. It's just a biolgical fact that we are descended from anscestors that had to fight for their survival and it's a historical fact that human society has become more civilised as it has developed more and better institutions and technologies.

You can ignore these facts and choose to believe instead in the childish mythology of stone age desert tribes if you like, but it doesn't change a single fact.

The biological facts you claim are not facts and the historical facts have nothing to do with the discussion.

This is what you said:

The problem you have is that you needed an explanation other than the real and obvious one, which is that we're descended from animals that have to fight other animals for their survival. So we have many of those attributes.

We are beginning to find our way out of our upbringing through our intellect and our secular institutions. We no longer have need for mythology to provide the reasons why we are what we are. So we can finally do something about it.

As I said, this is nothing but pontificating bombast, fanciful stuff made up out of thin air, the usual evolutionist fairy tale, given as the usual counter to the Christian claim about original sin.

Sad if you can't recognize that this is a fanciful tale even less interesting than the Grimms would have written.

However, who cares. Original Sin is my explanation for the phenomena under discussion. You are welcome to your own, stupid and ugly though it is.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 38 by Tangle, posted 03-23-2013 4:15 AM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
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 Message 47 by GrimSqueaker, posted 03-23-2013 11:07 AM Faith has responded

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 346 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 46 of 652 (694232)
03-23-2013 11:02 AM
Reply to: Message 45 by Tangle
03-23-2013 10:56 AM


Re: On original sin
Telling the truth is Christian, and I have no idea what you are trying to accuse me of.

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 346 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 49 of 652 (694237)
03-23-2013 11:17 AM
Reply to: Message 47 by GrimSqueaker
03-23-2013 11:07 AM


Re: On original sin
I suggest you reread my post.

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 346 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 119 of 652 (694875)
03-30-2013 4:58 AM
Reply to: Message 118 by Tangle
03-30-2013 4:33 AM


My atheism isn't a result of a some kind of hatred for Christianity or Christ, it's purely an act of reason. I've thought it through and considered it using the very tools you believe that your God gave me.

Except that according to Christian theology your tools are fallen and unreliable for that reason. Particularly what we lack in our human reason is any way to rightly assess God and His demands on us.

But if you've truly come to this conclusion why does the question concern you at all? When I was an atheist I don't think I gave a second thought to hell, I simply didn't believe in it.

Now explain to me why I deserve, at best, everlasting denial of happiness and why an entity that is supposed to be perfect love, would do this to me. And then explain why it would be a moral act.

Sin, or disobedience of God, is something like a rent in the nature of things, because God is perfectly pure. No matter how moral a person's life is by human standards it can never be perfect, but God is perfect so even a very small sin puts a chasm between us and Him. One lie, one act of unfairness to someone, one act of disobedience such as the trivial-seeming eating of a fruit that was forbidden to Adam and Eve, cuts us off from God.

The only way to right the wrong is atonement but we can't atone for ourselves because we are not pure. Only God Himself is pure enough to atone for us, but in order to atone for us He also has to be a human being, an absolutely sinless human being, who lives as a perfect human being and then dies in our place to pay for our sins. That's what Jesus did for us. I personally think it is a wonderful story of perfect love.

But again if you've truly concluded the story is false it shouldn't concern you at all.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


He who surrenders the first page of his Bible surrenders all. --John William Burgon, Inspiration and Interpretation, Sermon II.

2Cr 10:4-5 (For the weapons of our warfare [are] not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds;) Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God...


This message is a reply to:
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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 346 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 367 of 652 (867609)
11-28-2019 8:23 PM
Reply to: Message 366 by GDR
11-28-2019 6:39 PM


Re: Mainstream Christian Belief
Good grief orthodox Christianty has the answers

Death and disease and suffering: The Fall

How any good at all? Made in the image of God


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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 346 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 382 of 652 (867624)
11-29-2019 2:49 PM
Reply to: Message 368 by jar
11-28-2019 8:31 PM


Re: Mainstream Christian Belief
It is in the Byble as I've shown many times. Thing is we can answer those questions and you can't.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 368 by jar, posted 11-28-2019 8:31 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 346 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


(1)
Message 393 of 652 (867638)
11-29-2019 6:20 PM
Reply to: Message 391 by Phat
11-29-2019 4:34 PM


Re: Mainstream Christian Belief
Please stop using the words "sell" and "market" in relation to the gospel of Christ

This message is a reply to:
 Message 391 by Phat, posted 11-29-2019 4:34 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 346 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 461 of 652 (867807)
12-03-2019 2:21 PM
Reply to: Message 460 by Tangle
12-03-2019 1:22 PM


The purpose of it all
Maybe I can answer your question from my point of view, which is of course different from GDR's.

[qs]...but what I'm asking you is why your god made it the way it is.

He's created an experiment which results in the suffering and death of all of his creation. Trillions of lifeforms. All so that some get to go to the next life? Why? It's totally unnecessary and it's evil. How can that god match up to the loving god you believe in?

what I'm asking you is why your god made it the way it is.

God made it the way it is in order to play out the war between good and evil enacted by us human beings, his own favorte creatures. He made it so that we will be the agents of a tremendous good in the end that far surpasses the passive goodness in Eden. He could have left us in that state of passive goodness but then we wouldn't learn anything and we wouldn't have the heroic part he designed us for. Suffering is the result of opposing God. It's not as if we don't have the means to avoid it. All we have to do is recognize Him, love and obey Him. It's not a great task beyond our abilities, it is only our stubborn evil wills that keep us from it. His Bible doesn't tell us the ultimate outcome but it does hint at it: in the power of God we defeat the devil and his hordes and take their place in ruling over a new universe. As Paul said, paraphrasing: our light affliction is nothing compared to the glories that await us. Believers that is. And nothing is stopping you from joining us.

It isn't an experiment, it's a great plan.


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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 346 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 462 of 652 (867808)
12-03-2019 2:23 PM
Reply to: Message 461 by Faith
12-03-2019 2:21 PM


Re: The purpose of it all
Sorry about the mess in the previous post, but I'm not allowed to edit so I can't correct it.

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 346 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


(1)
Message 464 of 652 (867810)
12-03-2019 2:42 PM
Reply to: Message 463 by Tangle
12-03-2019 2:31 PM


Re: The purpose of it all
I'm sure the Greek tragedy is an intuition of the divine war.

I thought I explained: He could have left us in the passive state of endless goodness without evil, but evil is necessary so that good is seen as good and in the end a far greater good than that in the original creation. This involves suffering, but we are told He empathizes with our sufferings. As I quoted Paul, the sufferings will be seen as nothing in the end when we are in a position to appreciate the purpose of it all. Yet as he also says somewhere else , our sufferings are indeed painful, but the end result of righteousness is worth it. We aren't in a position to see it now, but we embrace it by faith. Believers do anyway.

I don't think you are appreciating the actual options. You focus on the suffering which is indeed often horrendous, but if you really consider what it means you wouldn't like the idea of living in a good world that didn't involve any conflict at all, nothing to think about, no problems to solve, no evil to vanguish.


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 346 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 467 of 652 (867816)
12-03-2019 3:13 PM
Reply to: Message 466 by Phat
12-03-2019 2:57 PM


Re: The purpose of it all
All those things bother us all, but we can only have faith that God knows what He's doing although we haven't a clue. Basic respet for God requires that. He's immensely greater than we are, to put it ridiculously mildly, and He is perfect righteousness. Our job is to do our best to pray for others and do our best to persuade them to believe, and leave the outcome to Him. We aren't God, trust Him to do the best thing which we won't appreciate until the very end. That is basic humility from our position as ignorant creatures.

This message is a reply to:
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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 346 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 479 of 652 (867922)
12-05-2019 1:00 AM
Reply to: Message 468 by Tangle
12-03-2019 3:58 PM


Re: The purpose of it all
Faith writes:

but if you really consider what it means you wouldn't like the idea of living in a good world that didn't involve any conflict at all, nothing to think about, no problems to solve, no evil to vanguish.

What you're describing is heaven, the ultimate goal with no evil and no struggle. Are you saying heaven isn't, well, heaven?

I'm not describing heaven, I'm describing Eden.

You still don't understand the question.

I'm afraid I lost track of this discussion and don't really remember the question. Would you repeat it for me? Perhaps explaining how I don't get it?


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 346 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 482 of 652 (867927)
12-05-2019 3:37 AM
Reply to: Message 480 by Tangle
12-05-2019 2:50 AM


Re: The purpose of it all
I don't think heaven is our final destination. I think it is probably to be the seat of Judgment, but the New Jerusalem comes down to Earth and that is to be the home of believers.

But whatever our final destination, it will be different from the uniform goodness of Eden. I have to guess since it isn't described, but what I guess is that we will know from our former experience what evil is, we will remember the sufferings of this earthly life, as well as evil in the sense of the horrible things people do to each other. There are some things we may forget, the Bible seems to say that somewhere, but in general I'd guess all that won't leave our memory. It will no longer exist in reality but if we remember it that should give us a heightened appreciation of goodness.

I want to know why god would do any of this at all? Either create a paradise, a world of suffering and death or a heaven to put those people in that gave him the correct experimental outcome.

I have no idea what you mean by "correct experimental outcome."

Otherwie I thought I answered this, that evil is necessary to an appreciation of the good. And it will also lead to a much higher good in the end. That's my own answer anyway.

Suffering is necessary in the fallen world where God's creatures have put themselves in opposition to Him. The opposition itself is like a rent in the fabric of Creation. In other words we are sinners and suffering is the result of our disobedience of God. Nobody escapes this. Nobody is in some special category as you seem to suggesting about "those people" you say "gave him the correct experimental outcome" which makes zero sense to me and doesn't fit any biblical category I know of. We're all fallen, we all suffer as a result.

There are degrees of suffering, presumably due to sins we inherit, or the severity of our own sins. I think the Hindu/Buddhist concept of karma is a very interesting attempt to dewscribe these experiences of fallenness and its degrees. the Buddha's whole focus was on suffering and how to do away with it, which involved ceasing to create bad karma which is roughly equivalent to the consequences of sin in the Christian worldview.

I'd also like to know why he tortures and kills the things he professes to love.

I'd assume again that it's due to degrees of sin but I'm not sure I know what you have in mind so please be more specific.


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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