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Author Topic:   Christianity is Morally Bankrupt
Taq
Member (Idle past 0 days)
Posts: 8482
Joined: 03-06-2009


Message 490 of 652 (867974)
12-05-2019 1:36 PM
Reply to: Message 486 by Faith
12-05-2019 5:25 AM


Re: The purpose of it all
Faith writes:

I still think that what you want, eliminating all evil and suffering, would be static and boring.

What is heaven supposed to be like? Are you saying that you would prefer Hell because it has evil and suffering since you would be bored in Heaven because nothing bad happens?

That "other place" you are talking about: why didn't He build that and not this you ask. Because it's impossible to thave that without this. That's my answer.

So is it impossible for God to build Heaven?

Edit: What Tangle said.

Edited by Taq, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 486 by Faith, posted 12-05-2019 5:25 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 491 by Faith, posted 12-05-2019 1:45 PM Taq has responded

  
Taq
Member (Idle past 0 days)
Posts: 8482
Joined: 03-06-2009


(1)
Message 497 of 652 (867986)
12-05-2019 3:04 PM
Reply to: Message 491 by Faith
12-05-2019 1:45 PM


Re: The purpose of it all
Faith writes:

But yes there is a comparison to be made between heaven and Eden that seems to suggest we could have been happy in Eden as of coruse everyone is in heaven.

You are saying that you wouldn't be happy in heaven because there is no evil or suffering. That would make it boring according to you. You are saying that we can't be happy unless there is evil and suffering.

But maybe this explains it: Adam and Eve started out without the knowledge of good and evil that they would get only by disobedience of God. But God says that would make them like "us, knowing good and evil" so in heaven they DO know of good and evil.

Adam and Eve learned of good and evil after eating of the Tree of Knowledge. They didn't start out with this knowledge. We also have this knowledge right now. So what gives? Will we lose this knowledge when we go to heaven? Are we stripped of free will when we get to heaven so that we can't disobey God?

Why can't Earth be like heaven?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 491 by Faith, posted 12-05-2019 1:45 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 500 by Faith, posted 12-05-2019 4:17 PM Taq has responded

  
Taq
Member (Idle past 0 days)
Posts: 8482
Joined: 03-06-2009


Message 505 of 652 (868021)
12-06-2019 12:36 PM
Reply to: Message 500 by Faith
12-05-2019 4:17 PM


Re: The purpose of it all
Faith writes:

Shortly after this post I elaborated, saying that we WOULD be happy in heaven where they have the knowledge of good and evil, whereas Adam and Eve did not have that knowledge.

We have the knowledge of good and evil, so why can't Earth and this universe be free of evil and suffering?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 500 by Faith, posted 12-05-2019 4:17 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 506 by Faith, posted 12-06-2019 1:19 PM Taq has responded

  
Taq
Member (Idle past 0 days)
Posts: 8482
Joined: 03-06-2009


Message 507 of 652 (868031)
12-06-2019 2:25 PM
Reply to: Message 506 by Faith
12-06-2019 1:19 PM


Re: The purpose of it all
Faith writes:

Because we disobeyed, we don't merely have knowledge as God does, we committed sin, and we commit it every day, 3we are in opposition to God.

That's not what the Bible says. The Bible says that Adam and Eve acquired the knowledge of good and evil by disobeying God. That's the exact opposite of what you are saying.

I believe that in the end knowledge we will have, we will have memory of it all, but we will be free of sin and the power to sin.

So what is stopping us from disobeying once we are in heaven? Do we lose all free will?

In Eden they had the power to sin and not the knowledge of good and evil. They ac quired that knowledge by disobeying God, by committing sin. The wages of sin is death, that is sin, opposition to God, disobedience of His morela law is the cause of all sufferinjg.

Then why are you saying that we don't have knowledge of good and evil because we disobeyed God?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 506 by Faith, posted 12-06-2019 1:19 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 508 by Faith, posted 12-06-2019 2:31 PM Taq has responded

  
Taq
Member (Idle past 0 days)
Posts: 8482
Joined: 03-06-2009


Message 509 of 652 (868036)
12-06-2019 2:33 PM
Reply to: Message 508 by Faith
12-06-2019 2:31 PM


Re: The purpose of it all
Faith writes:

Yes we have the knowledge of good and evil because we disoberyed God. Good grief, I don't know how I could have been any clearer.

"Because we disobeyed, we don't merely have knowledge as God does, we committed sin, and we commit it every day, 3we are in opposition to God."

Also, will we lose the free will to disobey God when we are in heaven?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 508 by Faith, posted 12-06-2019 2:31 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 510 by Faith, posted 12-06-2019 2:36 PM Taq has responded

  
Taq
Member (Idle past 0 days)
Posts: 8482
Joined: 03-06-2009


Message 511 of 652 (868038)
12-06-2019 2:38 PM
Reply to: Message 510 by Faith
12-06-2019 2:36 PM


Re: The purpose of it all
Faith writes:

What you quoted seems to me to say exactly what you say I didn't say.

Clarity isn't something you are familiar with.

The quote I used says that we don't have the knowledge.

Yes we will no longer have the freee will to sin/disobey God, but we will have the knowledgeof good and evil.

So why couldn't God create Eden and the rest of the universe in the same way?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 510 by Faith, posted 12-06-2019 2:36 PM Faith has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 512 by Phat, posted 12-06-2019 3:35 PM Taq has responded

  
Taq
Member (Idle past 0 days)
Posts: 8482
Joined: 03-06-2009


Message 513 of 652 (868060)
12-06-2019 4:08 PM
Reply to: Message 512 by Phat
12-06-2019 3:35 PM


Re: The purpose of it all
Thugpreacha writes:

Why did it (the story) have to have a God who created evil initially and thus why did humans have to suffer and die and get tortured and experience extreme pain in life all for the eventual purpose of *some* ending up in Heaven, having endured this whole trial by fire scenario. (Does that sound right, Taq?) So the argument goes, an all-powerful and loving God *could* have hypothetically skipped that whole developmental step with the human creation and simply created more free-willed beings to populate Heaven. (or Eden, take your pick)

That's pretty much it.

Adding to the story, if life does begin and conception at which point a soul is enshrined in that embryo, then what happens if the embryo dies before being born? Anywhere from 25 to 50% of pregnancies naturally terminate in the first month, so that's a lot of babies who die before being born. Is heaven going to be filled to the brim with people who never made it more than 1 month past conception? Are they left in limbo, or are they sent to Hell?

That God told our ancestors that if we disobeyed we would die while the cunning serpent told us that we would do fine with our new knowledge of good and evil. Which they claim is the truth. So the answer is_______________________________ from this day forward?

Why even have the two trees in Eden to begin with, or create Adam and Eve with the ability to disobey? Faith is saying that when we are in heaven we can't disobey God, so why wouldn't that also be the case on Earth?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 512 by Phat, posted 12-06-2019 3:35 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 514 by Phat, posted 12-06-2019 5:07 PM Taq has not yet responded

  
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