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Author Topic:   Christianity is Morally Bankrupt
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 53 of 652 (694273)
03-23-2013 1:38 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by GrimSqueaker
03-20-2013 4:29 PM


Not so fast...
1 - Devine atonement for Sin is a moral loop hole.
If a person does wrong the proper path to righting that wrong is to make recompense to the individual who has been wronged and/or society, prayer and other wishful thinking are moot in comparison to this

3 - Vicarious Redemption.
The crucifixion of Jesus for the atonement of sins is immoral, no person should ever be able to take moral responsibility for another. Certainly one can help someone else shoulder a burden in many ways but no one can take away someone else's responsibility for their actions. This central tenant strikes at the very idea of personal morality

Well, the above is not how things are supposed to work. When you sin, you create an issue between you and God, and in some cases, also between you and you and your fellow humans. Repentance and salvation are enough to clear up things between you and God, but nowhere in the doctrine as I learned it does that mean that your issues between you and your brother, the state, etc. are cleared up. If you steal from your brother and repent, the financial and moral issues between you and your brother remain. We don't let murders out of prison when they repent.

Of course some may find it unjust that God lets you off his personal hook so easy, but it would be highly inconsistent for you to feel that way since you don't believe Hell is appropriate ever.

2 - Heaven and Hell are Unjust.

What does the Bible say about Hell? Most of what some Christians and non-Christians believe about Hell comes from Dante's Inferno and not from the Bible.

4 - Freedom of Choice.

If you were born into a community or joined one who's rules you did not agree with you would be able to leave

And you cannot opt out? Really? You live in a Christianity based theocracy? I'm sure I've missed your point somehow.

5 - Original Sin and Sins of the Father.

Personal responsibility and morality mean little to nothing in a culture where the vilification for crimes can be passed from one generation to the next.

In my opinion, people who read original sin in this way are grossly misreading the Bible. I'd suggest that this idea is neither necessary nor inherent to Christianity. Original sin, in my opinion, is about a man or woman's personal and unavoidable tendency to err, and not on their grandpas.

Thoughts (a common symptom of many psychological illnesses including stress and depression) particularly harmful and unfair as a person may be suffering from their own thoughts anyway and would require compassion and understanding not feelings of guilt and shame, which they probably are already feeling

Uh, no...

It would be pretty bizarre to believe that God punishes the mentally ill in this way, and I don't believe that the Bible requires or even suggests this.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I would say here something that was heard from an ecclesiastic of the most eminent degree; ‘That the intention of the Holy Ghost is to teach us how one goes to heaven, not how the heaven goes.’ Galileo Galilei 1615.

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by GrimSqueaker, posted 03-20-2013 4:29 PM GrimSqueaker has not yet responded

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 57 of 652 (694325)
03-23-2013 10:39 PM
Reply to: Message 54 by GrimSqueaker
03-23-2013 1:48 PM


I asked for no part in this system and yet I'll be judged on it? That is unfair

I find your worries about judgment to be completely incompatible with your claimed lack of belief. I'm not particularly worried about getting on the 'Naughty' list despite the horrible consequences promised, because I don't believe in Santa Claus. On the other hand I don't want the 'Book of life' to contain a long list of things I've done that hurt my wife.

Aren't you an atheist? How can you be an atheist and also fear judgment?

Adultery is a sin so I believe that would qualify as a thought crime statement.

If you are a Christian, you simply repent and move on. Perhaps you avoid putting yourself in position to stare at Yolanda's booty in the future. If you are not a Christian, you ignore the issue and move on. None of us get to even know you've got the hots for Yolanda until either you tell us or we catch you with a boner, so we don't judge you.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I would say here something that was heard from an ecclesiastic of the most eminent degree; ‘That the intention of the Holy Ghost is to teach us how one goes to heaven, not how the heaven goes.’ Galileo Galilei 1615.

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 54 by GrimSqueaker, posted 03-23-2013 1:48 PM GrimSqueaker has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 66 by Dr Adequate, posted 03-24-2013 4:02 PM NoNukes has responded

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(2)
Message 71 of 652 (694430)
03-24-2013 6:30 PM
Reply to: Message 66 by Dr Adequate
03-24-2013 4:02 PM


He didn't say he was worried that it would happen, but that it's immoral to think that this is what should happen.

So there are some immoral thoughts after all? Yet he believes he should not be judged for thought crimes.

I see your point, but I don't think it makes Christianity morally bankrupt.

I don't believe Christians are responsible for how the universe operates. But perhaps their fear of bad consequences explains a zeal for proselytizing that does not involve lining their own pockets.

I accept that the sun is going to become a red giant and will likely incinerate the entire inner solar system. Before that, the sun's aging will have erased all terrestrial life. I claim that those are the consequences for even those who worship Apollo and believe he will prevent such things. I don't accept that my belief in such a horrible thing is morally bankrupt.

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I would say here something that was heard from an ecclesiastic of the most eminent degree; ‘That the intention of the Holy Ghost is to teach us how one goes to heaven, not how the heaven goes.’ Galileo Galilei 1615.

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 66 by Dr Adequate, posted 03-24-2013 4:02 PM Dr Adequate has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 72 by GrimSqueaker, posted 03-25-2013 6:08 AM NoNukes has responded
 Message 83 by Jazzns, posted 03-25-2013 10:57 AM NoNukes has responded

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 75 of 652 (694490)
03-25-2013 8:23 AM
Reply to: Message 74 by GrimSqueaker
03-25-2013 6:19 AM


To suppose that it is an inevitable out come of cosmology is not immoral

Even a cosmology that God set into motion?

for starters its blatently dishonest

Dishonest implies that Christians know that their religion is false. You haven't come anywhere close to making that argument. But perhaps it is what you truly believe.

A true Christians tells you that judgment is the consequence of human sin because he/she believe that to be just as inevitable as it is that the sun will expand into a red giant. If judgment is false not then a Christian is a fool and worse, but not liar.

Yet to wish away to sun to avoid such a fate is completely inane.

universal punishment of all the solar system and genocidal tendencies

Say what?

The solar system, being not animate, cannot be punished, and surely the inner portions of it other than earth are not habitable. Perhaps a red giant will support life in parts of the solar system that cannot support life now.

But besides all of that, I don't want the sun to blow up. So where are my genocidal tendencies being demonstrated?

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I would say here something that was heard from an ecclesiastic of the most eminent degree; ‘That the intention of the Holy Ghost is to teach us how one goes to heaven, not how the heaven goes.’ Galileo Galilei 1615.

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 74 by GrimSqueaker, posted 03-25-2013 6:19 AM GrimSqueaker has not yet responded

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 76 of 652 (694492)
03-25-2013 8:30 AM
Reply to: Message 72 by GrimSqueaker
03-25-2013 6:08 AM


Hold on a second you r twisting words there - regarding the thought crimes response

I'm not twisting anything. As has been pointed out to you repeatedly nothing a Christian does can actually send you to Hell. Further no true Christian wants you to be punished. You are judging Christians, at least those who believe in punishment along those lines, based on their thoughts.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I would say here something that was heard from an ecclesiastic of the most eminent degree; ‘That the intention of the Holy Ghost is to teach us how one goes to heaven, not how the heaven goes.’ Galileo Galilei 1615.

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 72 by GrimSqueaker, posted 03-25-2013 6:08 AM GrimSqueaker has not yet responded

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 86 of 652 (694548)
03-25-2013 1:24 PM
Reply to: Message 83 by Jazzns
03-25-2013 10:57 AM


God on the other hand, commits genocide when he very certainly does not have to and does it with clear intent. Again with the caveat that morality is a loose thing to begin with, I think that sympathizing with the idea of a God who would intentionally murder an entire society simply to clear off a piece of land is immoral

I would have provided a different answer if GrimSqueaker had addressed his question to God's morality or even to the morality of worshipping such a being. But he did not do so. Instead he has talked about the Christian mindset, and and Christian's personal moral responsibility for God's judgment on someone who isn't a Christian. I am curious as to why he does this, but so far I haven't seen him pose the question you ask here.

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I would say here something that was heard from an ecclesiastic of the most eminent degree; ‘That the intention of the Holy Ghost is to teach us how one goes to heaven, not how the heaven goes.’ Galileo Galilei 1615.

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 83 by Jazzns, posted 03-25-2013 10:57 AM Jazzns has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 88 by GrimSqueaker, posted 03-25-2013 1:35 PM NoNukes has acknowledged this reply
 Message 89 by Jazzns, posted 03-25-2013 6:52 PM NoNukes has responded

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 87 of 652 (694549)
03-25-2013 1:31 PM
Reply to: Message 83 by Jazzns
03-25-2013 10:57 AM


The main point is, that such a belief is inherently different from the belief that the sun will one day destroy the earth. It says nothing about what you are willing to believe other than that you accept rational predictions based on evidence.

Is it? I disagree.

I suspect that there are far more people that believe that the sun will become a red giant than there are who can actually defend that believe based on the evidence. Is that actually evil in some way?


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I would say here something that was heard from an ecclesiastic of the most eminent degree; ‘That the intention of the Holy Ghost is to teach us how one goes to heaven, not how the heaven goes.’ Galileo Galilei 1615.

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 83 by Jazzns, posted 03-25-2013 10:57 AM Jazzns has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 90 by Jazzns, posted 03-25-2013 6:59 PM NoNukes has responded

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 91 of 652 (694571)
03-25-2013 8:58 PM
Reply to: Message 90 by Jazzns
03-25-2013 6:59 PM


It is simply the counterpoint to a belief by faith that many people's understanding of the ultimate fate of the sun are in fact guided at least somewhat by the evidence even if it is filtered by an imperfect spread of science literacy

Most people believe that the sun will become a red giant because they heard it from some source that they trust and not because they have any appreciation at all for the evidence. I don't see any distinction between that and how people decide that God's judgment is inevitable other than that you don't believe the latter.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I would say here something that was heard from an ecclesiastic of the most eminent degree; ‘That the intention of the Holy Ghost is to teach us how one goes to heaven, not how the heaven goes.’ Galileo Galilei 1615.

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 90 by Jazzns, posted 03-25-2013 6:59 PM Jazzns has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 92 by GrimSqueaker, posted 03-25-2013 10:01 PM NoNukes has responded
 Message 94 by Jazzns, posted 03-25-2013 11:47 PM NoNukes has responded

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 93 of 652 (694577)
03-25-2013 10:34 PM
Reply to: Message 92 by GrimSqueaker
03-25-2013 10:01 PM


For the most part one can accept science which has been successfully peer reviewed to be pretty accurate

No, we cannot make any such assumption. You could not possibly understand the limitations of the peer review and still say this. There are plenty of bogus papers published in journals. There are even journals reserved for bogosity. Galilean Electrodynamics comes to mind.

And that's all besides the point. I agree that the likely stellar evolution of sol is well supported by the evidence. But most people accept and reject science with no regard whatsoever for the evidence. I doubt that one layperson in ten, pro or con, can give an evidence based defense of their position on AGW or evolution. People believe what they believe largely without regard for the evidence.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I would say here something that was heard from an ecclesiastic of the most eminent degree; ‘That the intention of the Holy Ghost is to teach us how one goes to heaven, not how the heaven goes.’ Galileo Galilei 1615.

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 92 by GrimSqueaker, posted 03-25-2013 10:01 PM GrimSqueaker has not yet responded

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 96 of 652 (694811)
03-29-2013 8:54 AM
Reply to: Message 94 by Jazzns
03-25-2013 11:47 PM


Re: Missing the point
We do not allow whipping boys in our society. Its wrong and there is no, "the sun is going to blow up" analogy for you to hide behind.

I don't use 'sun blowing up' for every argument. But whipping boy is a poor description for God himself coming to earth and creating a way for us to escape consequences of our own making.

The idea of heaven and hell is another good one. Which one you go to is solely determined by the agency of God!

Yes, the existence of hell would be problematic. Again, I didn't address the problem using 'sun blows up'.

It is an immoral concept because immorality can only come from things with an agency to decide to be immoral.

Exactly. I don't decide what the rules on judgment day are, I just believe the rules as I understand them are the rules. I don't act in fear of the rules, because judgment is not the point of Christianity anymore than is a speaker's plaque the point of giving a good speech. Christianity ultimately is about living a life patterned after Christ's life on earth. I'm not aware of anything Christ did in his 30 or so years on Earth that I find immoral.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I would say here something that was heard from an ecclesiastic of the most eminent degree; ‘That the intention of the Holy Ghost is to teach us how one goes to heaven, not how the heaven goes.’ Galileo Galilei 1615.

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 94 by Jazzns, posted 03-25-2013 11:47 PM Jazzns has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 100 by Jazzns, posted 03-29-2013 11:06 AM NoNukes has not yet responded

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 97 of 652 (694812)
03-29-2013 9:02 AM
Reply to: Message 89 by Jazzns
03-25-2013 6:52 PM


The fact that some Christians get by with a nuanced version of faith that doesn't contain vicarious redemption is irrelevent to the notion that many, perhaps even most, do.

Elsewhere I address vicarious redemption, but I think it does matter that some beliefs are not inherent to Christianity because Christianity is what is blanketly being called immoral.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I would say here something that was heard from an ecclesiastic of the most eminent degree; ‘That the intention of the Holy Ghost is to teach us how one goes to heaven, not how the heaven goes.’ Galileo Galilei 1615.

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 89 by Jazzns, posted 03-25-2013 6:52 PM Jazzns has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 101 by Jazzns, posted 03-29-2013 11:14 AM NoNukes has responded

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 99 of 652 (694827)
03-29-2013 10:58 AM
Reply to: Message 98 by Jazzns
03-29-2013 10:42 AM


Re: Still missing the point
That is what makes these ideas different from the sun blowing up, or a volcano erupting. Morality is a property of (im)moral actors of which the sun, a volcano, are very obviously not.

Again, the question addressed by my argument was a Christian's attitude towards the fact of having to face judgment and not whether God was an immoral actor. After all, would not a Creationist believe that God is responsible for creating a sun with a finite store of hydrogen?


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I would say here something that was heard from an ecclesiastic of the most eminent degree; ‘That the intention of the Holy Ghost is to teach us how one goes to heaven, not how the heaven goes.’ Galileo Galilei 1615.

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 98 by Jazzns, posted 03-29-2013 10:42 AM Jazzns has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 102 by Jazzns, posted 03-29-2013 11:27 AM NoNukes has responded

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 109 of 652 (694856)
03-29-2013 8:03 PM
Reply to: Message 101 by Jazzns
03-29-2013 11:14 AM


ay that therefore it is impossible to speak about Christianity in a general sense where many if not most of actual instances of Christianity in our modern world DO IN FACT hold those beliefs.

So if many, but not most do hold those beliefs, according to your statement it would still be okay to make general statements and apply them to all Christians or to Christianity in general. That implication at least seems wrong to me.

You can generalize as much as you want. But a perfectly good response to a generalization is to simply point out the generalization is false.

Edited by NoNukes, : replace two with to. My grammar stinks.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I would say here something that was heard from an ecclesiastic of the most eminent degree; ‘That the intention of the Holy Ghost is to teach us how one goes to heaven, not how the heaven goes.’ Galileo Galilei 1615.

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 101 by Jazzns, posted 03-29-2013 11:14 AM Jazzns has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 113 by Jazzns, posted 03-29-2013 11:41 PM NoNukes has responded

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 110 of 652 (694857)
03-29-2013 8:06 PM
Reply to: Message 102 by Jazzns
03-29-2013 11:27 AM


Re: Still missing the point
Presumably yes. In that case it is actually possible to apply the moral question once you insert the agency of the creator God. If it is actually in God's purvue to destory the earth, it doesn't matter the means by which that is accomplished, we can still judge it to be immoral.

Forget heaven, hell, salvation or all of the other stuff that have actually been brought up. You can find God evil for only giving sol 9-10 billion years worth of hydrogen. I find that idea laughable.

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I would say here something that was heard from an ecclesiastic of the most eminent degree; ‘That the intention of the Holy Ghost is to teach us how one goes to heaven, not how the heaven goes.’ Galileo Galilei 1615.

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 102 by Jazzns, posted 03-29-2013 11:27 AM Jazzns has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 114 by Jazzns, posted 03-29-2013 11:48 PM NoNukes has acknowledged this reply

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 117 of 652 (694873)
03-30-2013 4:10 AM
Reply to: Message 113 by Jazzns
03-29-2013 11:41 PM


Well, I mean is it not possible to talk about the category of people who do hold those beliefs? How specific must we be before we can talk about a genuine set of beliefs that our neighbors do actually hold to in part or whole by their very own admission?

If you want to toss around accusations that people are evil, perhaps you should be accurate about who you mean to address. Pretty much all of the stuff you describe is simply not central to Christianity.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I would say here something that was heard from an ecclesiastic of the most eminent degree; ‘That the intention of the Holy Ghost is to teach us how one goes to heaven, not how the heaven goes.’ Galileo Galilei 1615.

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 113 by Jazzns, posted 03-29-2013 11:41 PM Jazzns has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 184 by Jazzns, posted 04-01-2013 10:54 AM NoNukes has not yet responded

  
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