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Author Topic:   Christianity is Morally Bankrupt
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9486
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.5


(1)
Message 27 of 652 (694119)
03-22-2013 6:25 AM
Reply to: Message 24 by Faith
03-21-2013 8:40 PM


Re: On original sin
Faith writes:
. I felt that finally I had an explanation for the evils in this world that otherwise have no explanation.
You found a myth that explained it in a Grimm's Story way. You didn't find the explanation.
To my mind the doctrine is essential and precious for that reason. It takes a chaotic world in which people do horrible things to each other and makes it understandable.
The problem you have is that you needed an explanation other than the real and obvious one, which is that we're descended from animals that have to fight other animals for their survival. So we have many of those attributes.
We are beginning to find our way out of our upbringing through our intellect and our secular institutions. We no longer have need for mythology to provide the reasons why we are what we are. So we can finally do something about it.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by Faith, posted 03-21-2013 8:40 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 31 by Faith, posted 03-22-2013 9:35 PM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9486
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.5


(1)
Message 38 of 652 (694215)
03-23-2013 4:15 AM
Reply to: Message 31 by Faith
03-22-2013 9:35 PM


Re: On original sin
Faith writes:
Funny how you think you can assert your view as if it were unassailable truth, and expand on it with your evolutionized mythos as if that adds anything to the assertion, just the usual fantasy belief system blah blah blah but somehow it gets a pass as if it really meant something.
It isn't my view, I'm not inventing this, I'm simply reminding you of everyday facts that you prefer to ignore or deny. It's just a biolgical fact that we are descended from anscestors that had to fight for their survival and it's a historical fact that human society has become more civilised as it has developed more and better institutions and technologies.
You can ignore these facts and choose to believe instead in the childish mythology of stone age desert tribes if you like, but it doesn't change a single fact.
Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by Faith, posted 03-22-2013 9:35 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 43 by Faith, posted 03-23-2013 10:39 AM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9486
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.5


(2)
Message 45 of 652 (694231)
03-23-2013 10:56 AM
Reply to: Message 43 by Faith
03-23-2013 10:39 AM


Re: On original sin
Faith writes:
However, who cares. Original Sin is my explanation for the phenomena under discussion. You are welcome to your own, stupid and ugly though it is.
That's the most interesting thing about Christians, the more fundamental their beliefs, the less Christian they behave.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

This message is a reply to:
 Message 43 by Faith, posted 03-23-2013 10:39 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 46 by Faith, posted 03-23-2013 11:02 AM Tangle has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9486
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.5


Message 118 of 652 (694874)
03-30-2013 4:33 AM
Reply to: Message 116 by GDR
03-30-2013 1:42 AM


GDR writes:
Why? In this life we make choices as to where and how we live. Is that evil?
I lead a decent and moral life - take that as fact.
But I'm an atheist, so according to most Christians this means I'm going to hell. (Even in your moderate view, I'll be denied perfect happiness for all eternity).
My atheism isn't a result of a some kind of hatred for Christianity or Christ, it's purely an act of reason. I've thought it through and considered it using the very tools you believe that your God gave me.
Now explain to me why I deserve, at best, everlasting denial of happiness and why an entity that is supposed to be perfect love, would do this to me. And then explain why it would be a moral act.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

This message is a reply to:
 Message 116 by GDR, posted 03-30-2013 1:42 AM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 119 by Faith, posted 03-30-2013 4:58 AM Tangle has replied
 Message 126 by GDR, posted 03-30-2013 12:01 PM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9486
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.5


Message 120 of 652 (694876)
03-30-2013 5:23 AM
Reply to: Message 119 by Faith
03-30-2013 4:58 AM


Faith writes:
Except that according to Christian theology your tools are fallen and unreliable for that reason. Particularly what we lack in our human reason is any way to rightly assess God and His demands on us.
If the tools that your God gave me are faulty, then I can't be blamed for using them and getting the wrong answer can I?
But if you've truly come to this conclusion why does the question concern you at all? When I was an atheist I don't think I gave a second thought to hell, I simply didn't believe in it.
It doesn't concern me for a moment.
But I am interested in why those that do believe it think that way. And I'm concerned about the effect those that believe in the bunkum has on our society.
But again if you've truly concluded the story is false it shouldn't concern you at all.
Well of course it's false - you just invented all that nonsense. But that's not the point, you haven't answered the question at all. The questions was:
"explain to me why I deserve, at best, everlasting denial of happiness and why an entity that is supposed to be perfect love, would do this to me. And then explain why it would be a moral act"
Why is it moral to condemn a perfectly decent bloke to everlasting hell?

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

This message is a reply to:
 Message 119 by Faith, posted 03-30-2013 4:58 AM Faith has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 122 by purpledawn, posted 03-30-2013 8:16 AM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9486
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.5


Message 123 of 652 (694881)
03-30-2013 8:29 AM
Reply to: Message 122 by purpledawn
03-30-2013 8:16 AM


purpledawn writes:
The afterlife is a different society than the living. Gods rules the afterlife. They may consider it very moral to condemn a perfectly decent bloke to hell.
Are you really satisfied with that answer? You have just described an immoral god.
You have also described a god that you have no way at all of knowing whether you're pleasing or insulting by your actions - including worshipping him.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

This message is a reply to:
 Message 122 by purpledawn, posted 03-30-2013 8:16 AM purpledawn has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 124 by purpledawn, posted 03-30-2013 9:55 AM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9486
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.5


Message 125 of 652 (694887)
03-30-2013 12:01 PM
Reply to: Message 124 by purpledawn
03-30-2013 9:55 AM


purpledawn writes:
His world, his morals. Those who believe and join the club know the rules for their god. That's the purpose of revelation.
According to you, you can not know his rules because only he knows them and they can be anything he wants, including behaving immorally.
The 'revelation' is therefore nothing of the sort; it's just what you want to believe it to be.
You're also left with the morality puzzle of those people who have had no chance of any 'revelation' - because they happened to be born in a part of the world where this particular brand of belief hasn't reached - also going straight to hell (of whatever flavour you've chosen to believe.)
And the fact that the 'revelations' are all totally different.
In other words, it's totally irrational and inconsistent. It's therefore purely imaginary.
What effect does the belief in such bunkum have on our society today????
it means that those who believe the bunkum carry a pile of anti-rational baggage around with them and feel that they need to impose their whacky beliefs on society - nasty things like homosexual prejudices, dangerous and murderous contraception policies and attempt to get their erroneous beliefs and values into our classrooms - re-inventing the whole of biology, geology and astronomy for their own batty beliefs.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

This message is a reply to:
 Message 124 by purpledawn, posted 03-30-2013 9:55 AM purpledawn has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 135 by purpledawn, posted 03-30-2013 6:53 PM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9486
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.5


Message 127 of 652 (694889)
03-30-2013 12:30 PM
Reply to: Message 126 by GDR
03-30-2013 12:01 PM


Re: It's all about the heart
GDR writes:
first statement doesn’t represent my views nor does it represent the view of Jesus in the Gospel.
So which is it, do I, as a decent bloke, but an atheist, get to go to heaven or not?

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

This message is a reply to:
 Message 126 by GDR, posted 03-30-2013 12:01 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 128 by jar, posted 03-30-2013 1:22 PM Tangle has replied
 Message 130 by GDR, posted 03-30-2013 3:44 PM Tangle has replied
 Message 144 by Larni, posted 03-31-2013 8:15 AM Tangle has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9486
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.5


Message 129 of 652 (694897)
03-30-2013 1:53 PM
Reply to: Message 128 by jar
03-30-2013 1:22 PM


Re: It's all about the heart
I thought it was an all inclusive deal??

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

This message is a reply to:
 Message 128 by jar, posted 03-30-2013 1:22 PM jar has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9486
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.5


Message 131 of 652 (694906)
03-30-2013 3:48 PM
Reply to: Message 130 by GDR
03-30-2013 3:44 PM


Re: It's all about the heart
GDR writes:
The direct answer is I have no idea,
But why do you have no idea? A truly moral God would have no difficulty making it absolutely clear what was required to get into his heaven. After all, it's the most monumentally devastating thing to get wrong.
How come there is room for you to disagree with other Christians who absolutely know, I'm going straight to hell without passing go?

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

This message is a reply to:
 Message 130 by GDR, posted 03-30-2013 3:44 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 132 by GDR, posted 03-30-2013 5:43 PM Tangle has replied
 Message 136 by jar, posted 03-30-2013 9:22 PM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9486
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.5


Message 133 of 652 (694910)
03-30-2013 6:08 PM
Reply to: Message 132 by GDR
03-30-2013 5:43 PM


Re: It's all about the heart
The thing is, you've told me an awful lot about what you believe and totally failed to answer the questions I asked.
I suppose that's all you can do really.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

This message is a reply to:
 Message 132 by GDR, posted 03-30-2013 5:43 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 134 by GDR, posted 03-30-2013 6:14 PM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9486
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.5


Message 137 of 652 (694928)
03-31-2013 3:24 AM
Reply to: Message 136 by jar
03-30-2013 9:22 PM


Re: It's all about the heart
Jar writes:
He might be honest.
It really is that simple.
I think he is, and it is simple. He's just saying what he personally prefers to believe.
As other who share the same belief prefer to believe someting different and there's no actual evidence for either, there's not much more to be said.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

This message is a reply to:
 Message 136 by jar, posted 03-30-2013 9:22 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 139 by purpledawn, posted 03-31-2013 3:46 AM Tangle has not replied
 Message 150 by jar, posted 03-31-2013 10:03 AM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9486
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.5


Message 138 of 652 (694929)
03-31-2013 3:36 AM
Reply to: Message 134 by GDR
03-30-2013 6:14 PM


Re: It's all about the heart
GDR writes:
You seem to want a definitive answer as to what eternity will be like for you.
That's not the purpose of my question. I obviously don't belive in anything to do with heaven and hell. I'm trying to understand why believers do and debate whether hell is a morally bankrupt Christian idea.
From what has been said so far, the concept of hell is utterly unjust and immoral. Not only that, no-one can even agree on what it is or how to avoid it.
Nobody can give you that answer which is an answer in itself.
Yes it it. And the obvious answer is that it's a myth. Like all the others in your book. I fail to see how any rational person can reach a different conclusion.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

This message is a reply to:
 Message 134 by GDR, posted 03-30-2013 6:14 PM GDR has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9486
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.5


Message 140 of 652 (694931)
03-31-2013 3:49 AM
Reply to: Message 135 by purpledawn
03-30-2013 6:53 PM


Re: The Afterlife
purpedawn writes:
I've been arguing from the standpoint of gods existing. Who said the afterlife was fair by our standards?
How can a God be unfair by our standards and still be regarded as moral by us?
If morality is defined as anything a god decides is moral for him, it serves no purpose for us. "Do as I say, not as I do" is not nomally regarded as the Christian message.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

This message is a reply to:
 Message 135 by purpledawn, posted 03-30-2013 6:53 PM purpledawn has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 141 by purpledawn, posted 03-31-2013 4:30 AM Tangle has replied
 Message 158 by Dr Adequate, posted 03-31-2013 2:31 PM Tangle has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9486
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.5


(1)
Message 142 of 652 (694934)
03-31-2013 5:01 AM
Reply to: Message 141 by purpledawn
03-31-2013 4:30 AM


Re: The Afterlife
purpledawn writes:
Do I really have to ask all my questions twice????
I've answered your question. And it's off topic. If you want to discuss how Christianity is bad for society, start a thread.
Biblically speaking, the wicked are punished. Unfortunately in this thread we working with what beliefs have become or what the originator thinks the belief is, not necessarily biblical.
Biblically or otherwise, it's wicked to punish people who lead good lives just because they find that the evidence for a creator is inadequate to support a belief or because they were born in the wrong country to the wrong parents.
THAT is what we're discussing, whether Christianity is morally bankrupt. The concept of hell where good peope are sent for no fault of their own is the proof

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

This message is a reply to:
 Message 141 by purpledawn, posted 03-31-2013 4:30 AM purpledawn has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 143 by Phat, posted 03-31-2013 8:07 AM Tangle has replied
 Message 147 by purpledawn, posted 03-31-2013 8:50 AM Tangle has replied

  
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