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Author Topic:   Christianity is Morally Bankrupt
GDR
Member
Posts: 5052
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 361 of 590 (867602)
11-28-2019 4:04 PM
Reply to: Message 359 by PaulK
11-28-2019 3:52 PM


Re: Mainstream Christian Belief
PaulK writes:

I don’t consider The idea that the Bible is entirely without error to be a part of mainstream Christianity, especially when read literally.

OK Thanks. I agree

PaulK writes:

The Sabbath laws were over-strict but the basis concept is fine. The rules surrounding menstruation, on the other hand...

...and again. I agree.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 359 by PaulK, posted 11-28-2019 3:52 PM PaulK has not yet responded

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 5052
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 362 of 590 (867603)
11-28-2019 4:08 PM
Reply to: Message 360 by Tangle
11-28-2019 4:00 PM


Re: Mainstream Christian Belief
Tangle writes:

“why would your god omit the most important thing in our world - in your opinion - from a minority of people amounting to millions?”

Just so I'm clear - omit from what?

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 360 by Tangle, posted 11-28-2019 4:00 PM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 363 by Tangle, posted 11-28-2019 4:22 PM GDR has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 7202
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.3


Message 363 of 590 (867604)
11-28-2019 4:22 PM
Reply to: Message 362 by GDR
11-28-2019 4:08 PM


Re: Mainstream Christian Belief
Conscience. Your 'still small voice of god.'

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 362 by GDR, posted 11-28-2019 4:08 PM GDR has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 364 by GDR, posted 11-28-2019 4:36 PM Tangle has responded

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 5052
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 364 of 590 (867606)
11-28-2019 4:36 PM
Reply to: Message 363 by Tangle
11-28-2019 4:22 PM


Re: Mainstream Christian Belief
Tangle writes:

Conscience. Your 'still small voice of god.'

Well, I suppose it's there but mental illness prevents the individual from accessing it.

However, I accept that as a weak answer, but it is the same question that we have gone over before. The most difficult thing that we Christians have to get our head around is why there is such a thing as mental illness, cancer, tsunamis etc in the world.

The best I can do is that natural illnesses and disasters are a necessary by-product of a world subject to entropy and decay. Our role as humans is to do all that we can to mitigate the suffering that results.


He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 363 by Tangle, posted 11-28-2019 4:22 PM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 365 by Tangle, posted 11-28-2019 4:59 PM GDR has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 7202
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.3


Message 365 of 590 (867607)
11-28-2019 4:59 PM
Reply to: Message 364 by GDR
11-28-2019 4:36 PM


Re: Mainstream Christian Belief
GDR writes:

Well, I suppose it's there but mental illness prevents the individual from accessing it.

I was going to explain why that was wrong but then you acknowledged it

However, I accept that as a weak answer, but it is the same question that we have gone over before.

And the problem you have is that it's unanwerable so what happens is that it's pushed into the background and rots gently in the to-do pile.

The most difficult thing that we Christians have to get our head around is why there is such a thing as mental illness, cancer, tsunamis etc in the world.

Correct, but it doesn't seem to matter - it never gets an answer because it can't answered, so it becomes the most important thing that is no longer important, it becomes a moral shrug and you get along nicely never-the-less.

The best I can do is that natural illnesses and disasters are a necessary by-product of a world subject to entropy and decay. Our role as humans is to do all that we can to mitigate the suffering that results.

Which of course is just avoiding the question. It's THE most important evidence against a loving god, yet it's shunned as just inexplicable. Nope, it explains why god is absent.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 364 by GDR, posted 11-28-2019 4:36 PM GDR has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 366 by GDR, posted 11-28-2019 6:39 PM Tangle has responded

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 5052
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 366 of 590 (867608)
11-28-2019 6:39 PM
Reply to: Message 365 by Tangle
11-28-2019 4:59 PM


Re: Mainstream Christian Belief
Tangle writes:

Which of course is just avoiding the question. It's THE most important evidence against a loving god, yet it's shunned as just inexplicable. Nope, it explains why god is absent.

There is also the answer that this life is a prelude to whatever comes next where there is no mental illness etc.

Of course there is still the question of why there is such a thing as goodness in the world without God. I know that you have provided answers but I don't see those answers as being any stronger than the answers I have given to your question.


He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 365 by Tangle, posted 11-28-2019 4:59 PM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 367 by Faith, posted 11-28-2019 8:23 PM GDR has not yet responded
 Message 369 by Tangle, posted 11-29-2019 2:45 AM GDR has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 33886
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 367 of 590 (867609)
11-28-2019 8:23 PM
Reply to: Message 366 by GDR
11-28-2019 6:39 PM


Re: Mainstream Christian Belief
Good grief orthodox Christianty has the answers

Death and disease and suffering: The Fall

How any good at all? Made in the image of God


This message is a reply to:
 Message 366 by GDR, posted 11-28-2019 6:39 PM GDR has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 368 by jar, posted 11-28-2019 8:31 PM Faith has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 31771
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 368 of 590 (867610)
11-28-2019 8:31 PM
Reply to: Message 367 by Faith
11-28-2019 8:23 PM


Re: Mainstream Christian Belief
But there is no Fall in the Bible. That's yet another carny midway sideshow.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 367 by Faith, posted 11-28-2019 8:23 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 382 by Faith, posted 11-29-2019 2:49 PM jar has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 7202
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.3


Message 369 of 590 (867611)
11-29-2019 2:45 AM
Reply to: Message 366 by GDR
11-28-2019 6:39 PM


Re: Mainstream Christian Belief
GDR writes:

There is also the answer that this life is a prelude to whatever comes next where there is no mental illness etc.

Which is not an answer to why there is illness in this world. Nor is it an answer to why this world is necessary to exist at all. Is your god carrying out a wicked experiment on people?

Nor is it an answer to why your god would allow a situation where a percentage of his flock could not hear his 'still small voice'. He's denying them access. Why would a loving god do that? Does it make any sense at all to you?

Of course there is still the question of why there is such a thing as goodness in the world without God. I know that you have provided answers but I don't see those answers as being any stronger than the answers I have given to your question.

The answer is that both 'good' and 'bad' exist, not just good. You can't escape the fact that God must be responsible for both.

And of course we know why they exist, they're a perfectly natural consequence of evolution.

Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 366 by GDR, posted 11-28-2019 6:39 PM GDR has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 370 by Thugpreacha, posted 11-29-2019 4:25 AM Tangle has responded
 Message 378 by GDR, posted 11-29-2019 10:30 AM Tangle has responded

  
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 13375
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 370 of 590 (867612)
11-29-2019 4:25 AM
Reply to: Message 369 by Tangle
11-29-2019 2:45 AM


Re: Mainstream Christian Belief
tangle writes:

Which is not an answer to why there is illness in this world. Nor is it an answer to why this world is necessary to exist at all. Is your god carrying out a wicked experiment on people?

What makes you conclude that an all-powerful God has a moral obligation to use His power to make your life perfect and pain-free? Just because He hypothetically had the ability to alleviate suffering, what gave you the idea that morality and humanism demand a 100% effort...(a forced effort, by the way) to alleviate pain and trial in others? Essentially by demanding such a response should such an option be available, you are playing God yourself. And your outrage over the very idea that an all-powerful God would have to subscribe to your morality to be considered good is itself outrageous. Don't tell me you can't think of even one reason (hypothetical to be sure) why if God existed He had to behave according to your terms.
Nor is it an answer to why your god would allow a situation where a percentage of his flock could not hear his 'still small voice'.
Is that your only conclusion? That He's denying them access?
Why would a loving god do that? Does it make any sense at all to you?
I confess its a valid question. You may declare it a copout to simply shrug and say that God works in mysterious ways, and i can see your point. But in your concluding line of reasoning, you say that since such a God is illogical, it is more logical to just conclude that no God exists. Which to me is a premature conclusion based on a scarcity of evidence only of a God you conclude to be logical rather than One who is.

Edited by Thugpreacha, : No reason given.

Edited by Thugpreacha, : No reason given.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"We, humans, are engaged in an ongoing war of ideologies. I see it in this microcosm of EvC Forum just as I see it in the governments and attitudes of people throughout the world. Take your pick: Oppression or Seduction .
"~Thugpreacha

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

“As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”
? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith


This message is a reply to:
 Message 369 by Tangle, posted 11-29-2019 2:45 AM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 371 by Tangle, posted 11-29-2019 5:11 AM Thugpreacha has acknowledged this reply
 Message 372 by AZPaul3, posted 11-29-2019 5:39 AM Thugpreacha has responded
 Message 379 by ringo, posted 11-29-2019 10:45 AM Thugpreacha has not yet responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 7202
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.3


(1)
Message 371 of 590 (867613)
11-29-2019 5:11 AM
Reply to: Message 370 by Thugpreacha
11-29-2019 4:25 AM


Re: Mainstream Christian Belief
Phat writes:

What makes you conclude that an all-powerful God has a moral obligation to use His power to make your life perfect and pain-free?

Because you tell us that he loves us. Quite obviously he either couldn't give a rat's arse about us or is a torturer.

Just because He hypothetically had the ability to alleviate suffering, what gave you the idea that morality and humanism demand a 100% effort...(a forced effort, by the way) to alleviate pain and trial in others?

See above.

Essentially by demanding such a response should such an option be available, you are playing God yourself. And your outrage over the very idea that an all-powerful God would have to subscribe to your morality to be considered good is itself outrageous. Don't tell me you can't think of even one reason (hypothetical to be sure) why if God existed He had to behave according to your terms.

The problem you have is that apparently we're made in his image and he loves us. Our existence and the short difficult and painful lives we lead tell us he doesn't.

I confess its a valid question. You may declare it a copout to simply shrug and say that God works in mysterious ways,

Of course it's a cop out, it essentially says that your theology can't explain it but you then go on to totally ignore it as though it doesn't contradict your core beliefs about your god. Just pretend it's not a devastating problem for your religion.

But in your concluding line of reasoning, you say that since such a God is illogical, it is more logical to just conclude that no God exists. Which to me is a premature conclusion based on a scarcity of evidence only of a God you conclude to be logical rather than One who is.

My conclusion is that your understanding of who and what god is contradicted by who and what his creation is. Your god either doesn't give a shit about us or is evil.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 370 by Thugpreacha, posted 11-29-2019 4:25 AM Thugpreacha has acknowledged this reply

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 4785
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 372 of 590 (867614)
11-29-2019 5:39 AM
Reply to: Message 370 by Thugpreacha
11-29-2019 4:25 AM


Re: Mainstream Christian Belief
What makes you conclude that an all-powerful God has a moral obligation to use His power to make your life perfect and pain-free?

You can endow your gods with any attributes you may desire as long as you are logically consistent in their application.

Any gods that would purposefully create *this* world of morbid depravity in which to place their “greatest” creation with the prospect of a large percentage of that flock being denied the “still small voice” and thus are to be tortured for all eternity, are not ones to be revered as infinitely loving, caring, forgiving, but are ones to be reviled as hateful, blood thirsty and evil.

We do not insist your gods act in accord with our moral views. You can make them as evil or loving as you so desire. But, if you insist your gods are responsible for this world and all that’s in it then we will judge them according to the realities we find in this world.

If you insist that *your* gods created this world in these terms then you must accept that your gods are the greatest evil in the universe.


Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 370 by Thugpreacha, posted 11-29-2019 4:25 AM Thugpreacha has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 385 by Thugpreacha, posted 11-29-2019 3:17 PM AZPaul3 has acknowledged this reply

  
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 13375
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 373 of 590 (867615)
11-29-2019 8:31 AM
Reply to: Message 327 by jar
11-27-2019 4:11 PM


Re: Mainstream Christian Belief
jar writes:

What is written in the Bible is what is written in the Bible.

OK, explain this one.
Genesis 1:29-30 ESV writes:

29 And God said, “Behold, I have given you every plant yielding seed that is on the face of all the earth, and every tree with seed in its fruit. you shall have them for food. 30 And unto every beast of the earth and to every bird of the heavens and to everything that creeps on the earth, everything that has the breath of life, I have given every green plant for food.” And it was so.

Since when do every beast of the earth eat like vegetarians? Surely the humans knew better.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"We, humans, are engaged in an ongoing war of ideologies. I see it in this microcosm of EvC Forum just as I see it in the governments and attitudes of people throughout the world. Take your pick: Oppression or Seduction .
"~Thugpreacha

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

“As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”
? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith


This message is a reply to:
 Message 327 by jar, posted 11-27-2019 4:11 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 374 by jar, posted 11-29-2019 8:44 AM Thugpreacha has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 31771
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.6


(2)
Message 374 of 590 (867616)
11-29-2019 8:44 AM
Reply to: Message 373 by Thugpreacha
11-29-2019 8:31 AM


Re: Mainstream Christian Belief
Exactly. Humans understand that it is a fable and the whole point has nothing to do with creation or god. It is a creation fable, one of two mutually exclusive and contradictory creation fables found in Genesis.

The authors were certainly smart enough to know they were writing Fables.

The purpose of Genesis 1 is to establish the sacred week and the Sabbath just as Genesis 2&3 is a fable to explain the transition from the older carefree hunter gatherer society to the later agrarian society, why we fear snakes, why unlike the other animals we make and wear clothes, why child birth seems more difficult and painful for humans than for the other animals and most importantly, why the man takes precedent of the woman.

All these are patently obvious yet what you call mainstream Christianity does not bother to educate believers about what is actually written.

AbE: Or if the Bible is God Breathed then it seems that God was just not very bright.

Edited by jar, : hit wrong key

Edited by jar, : see AbE:


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 373 by Thugpreacha, posted 11-29-2019 8:31 AM Thugpreacha has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 375 by Thugpreacha, posted 11-29-2019 9:27 AM jar has responded
 Message 376 by Thugpreacha, posted 11-29-2019 9:39 AM jar has not yet responded

  
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 13375
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 375 of 590 (867617)
11-29-2019 9:27 AM
Reply to: Message 374 by jar
11-29-2019 8:44 AM


Re: Mainstream Christian Belief
You say that the story has nothing to do with God, but what good would it do to establish a sacred week was God not the source of the sacredness?

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"We, humans, are engaged in an ongoing war of ideologies. I see it in this microcosm of EvC Forum just as I see it in the governments and attitudes of people throughout the world. Take your pick: Oppression or Seduction .
"~Thugpreacha

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

“As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”
? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith


This message is a reply to:
 Message 374 by jar, posted 11-29-2019 8:44 AM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 377 by jar, posted 11-29-2019 9:55 AM Thugpreacha has responded

  
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