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Author Topic:   Christianity is Morally Bankrupt
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 13375
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 376 of 591 (867618)
11-29-2019 9:39 AM
Reply to: Message 374 by jar
11-29-2019 8:44 AM


Re: Mainstream Christian Belief
Also another question that I have which bugs me. Where you differ from just about any other critic of Christian belief who claims also to be Christian is this whole edict that you often say to throw God away. Where on earth did you adopt that advice and why do you pass it along? I see no way that it helps anything.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"We, humans, are engaged in an ongoing war of ideologies. I see it in this microcosm of EvC Forum just as I see it in the governments and attitudes of people throughout the world. Take your pick: Oppression or Seduction .
"~Thugpreacha

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

“As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”
? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith


This message is a reply to:
 Message 374 by jar, posted 11-29-2019 8:44 AM jar has not yet responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 31771
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 377 of 591 (867619)
11-29-2019 9:55 AM
Reply to: Message 375 by Thugpreacha
11-29-2019 9:27 AM


Re: Mainstream Christian Belief
Phat writes:

You say that the story has nothing to do with God, but what good would it do to establish a sacred week was God not the source of the sacredness?

The sacred week was a defining characteristic of the Priestly era Judaism. It was a social and legal practice. The story is the justification for the laws that revolved around the Sabbath and the God character and it's behavior were created to support, market and enforce those practices.

Remember, Genesis 1 was written hundreds if not thousands of years after the creation of the much earlier Genesis 2&3 tales. The issue of how much power and authority should be conferred on the Priestly factions was also a later creation and concern. It was part of the centralization of power most likely post exile.

The question should be "What doesn't so called mainstream Christianity educate their followers?"

AbE: to answer the next question.

Phat writes:

Also another question that I have which bugs me. Where you differ from just about any other critic of Christian belief who claims also to be Christian is this whole edict that you often say to throw God away. Where on earth did you adopt that advice and why do you pass it along? I see no way that it helps anything.

I'm glad it bugs you and hope it bugs you enough to start thinking about why I would say that.

It is important and it really is relevant.

So why would I say that?

Edited by jar, : see AbE:


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 375 by Thugpreacha, posted 11-29-2019 9:27 AM Thugpreacha has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 383 by Thugpreacha, posted 11-29-2019 3:01 PM jar has responded

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 5052
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 378 of 591 (867620)
11-29-2019 10:30 AM
Reply to: Message 369 by Tangle
11-29-2019 2:45 AM


Re: Mainstream Christian Belief
Tangle writes:

Nor is it an answer to why your god would allow a situation where a percentage of his flock could not hear his 'still small voice'. He's denying them access. Why would a loving god do that? Does it make any sense at all to you?

Why would a mindless process evolve to bring about creatures that are prepared to sacrifice their lives for others.? Does that make any sense to you at all?
Tangle writes:

The answer is that both 'good' and 'bad' exist, not just good. You can't escape the fact that God must be responsible for both.

OK

Tangle writes:

And of course we know why they exist, they're a perfectly natural consequence of evolution.

That is your unevidenced faith, and even if correct it is your unevidenced faith that the evolutionary process that naturally brought about this result had a natural root.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 369 by Tangle, posted 11-29-2019 2:45 AM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 380 by ringo, posted 11-29-2019 10:52 AM GDR has responded
 Message 381 by Tangle, posted 11-29-2019 12:45 PM GDR has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 17666
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 379 of 591 (867621)
11-29-2019 10:45 AM
Reply to: Message 370 by Thugpreacha
11-29-2019 4:25 AM


Re: Mainstream Christian Belief
Phat writes:

What makes you conclude that an all-powerful God has a moral obligation to use His power to make your life perfect and pain-free?


Why would an all-powerful God have lower moral standards than we do? We put a lot of effort into making life perfect and pain-free. Why can't He keep up?

Phat writes:

Essentially by demanding such a response should such an option be available, you are playing God yourself.


We are imagining what a God would be like if there was one - at least if there was one worth paying any attention to. The god that you market isn't plausible.

Phat writes:

And your outrage over the very idea that an all-powerful God would have to subscribe to your morality to be considered good is itself outrageous.


Again, why would an all-powerful God have moral standards lower than ours?

"If you can keep your head when all about you
Are losing theirs and blaming it on you...."
-- Rudyard Kipling

This message is a reply to:
 Message 370 by Thugpreacha, posted 11-29-2019 4:25 AM Thugpreacha has not yet responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 17666
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 380 of 591 (867622)
11-29-2019 10:52 AM
Reply to: Message 378 by GDR
11-29-2019 10:30 AM


Re: Mainstream Christian Belief
GDR writes:

Why would a mindless process evolve to bring about creatures that are prepared to sacrifice their lives for others.?


Survival of the species.

"If you can keep your head when all about you
Are losing theirs and blaming it on you...."
-- Rudyard Kipling

This message is a reply to:
 Message 378 by GDR, posted 11-29-2019 10:30 AM GDR has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 384 by Thugpreacha, posted 11-29-2019 3:06 PM ringo has responded
 Message 395 by GDR, posted 11-29-2019 7:32 PM ringo has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 7203
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.3


Message 381 of 591 (867623)
11-29-2019 12:45 PM
Reply to: Message 378 by GDR
11-29-2019 10:30 AM


Re: Mainstream Christian Belief
GDR writes:

Why would a mindless process evolve to bring about creatures that are prepared to sacrifice their lives for others.? Does that make any sense to you at all?

You can't avoid the question by diverting it. The question remains, why would your god do that?

That is your unevidenced faith, and even if correct it is your unevidenced faith that the evolutionary process that naturally brought about this result had a natural root.

It's not unevidenced but never mind. It doesn't matter what my explanation for suffering is, you still can't explain why it makes sense to you given the god you believe in.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 378 by GDR, posted 11-29-2019 10:30 AM GDR has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 394 by GDR, posted 11-29-2019 7:16 PM Tangle has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 33886
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 382 of 591 (867624)
11-29-2019 2:49 PM
Reply to: Message 368 by jar
11-28-2019 8:31 PM


Re: Mainstream Christian Belief
It is in the Byble as I've shown many times. Thing is we can answer those questions and you can't.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 368 by jar, posted 11-28-2019 8:31 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 386 by Thugpreacha, posted 11-29-2019 3:32 PM Faith has not yet responded
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Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 13375
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 383 of 591 (867625)
11-29-2019 3:01 PM
Reply to: Message 377 by jar
11-29-2019 9:55 AM


Re: Mainstream Christian Belief
As I research the EvC archives to gather quotes and respond to your line of questioning, I find nearly this exact same issue raised with me before, which i at the time ignored, likely having nothing to say.
Message 268

I think you are steering the issue in the direction of GOD being unknowable and "likely not as humans describe Her as".

Thus you will likely argue that we need to throw away all apologetic and pastoral marketing descriptions defining the character of God and instead focus on living out the character of Jesus Christ in us through feeding, clothing, encouraging and sheltering the least of these. Similar to how you live out Santa Claus.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I essentially see this as your belief and practice. I believe though obviously cannot prove that GOD lives through Jesus Christ transferred to humanity through the Holy Spirit, which is far more than a human-created marketing tool. In the end, though your method of internalizing the character and my similar claim of internal Communion and necessary imitation of the character differ little.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"We, humans, are engaged in an ongoing war of ideologies. I see it in this microcosm of EvC Forum just as I see it in the governments and attitudes of people throughout the world. Take your pick: Oppression or Seduction .
"~Thugpreacha

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

“As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”
? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith


This message is a reply to:
 Message 377 by jar, posted 11-29-2019 9:55 AM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 388 by jar, posted 11-29-2019 3:34 PM Thugpreacha has not yet responded

  
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 13375
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 384 of 591 (867626)
11-29-2019 3:06 PM
Reply to: Message 380 by ringo
11-29-2019 10:52 AM


Re: Mainstream Christian Belief
GDR writes:

Why would a mindless process evolve to bring about creatures that are prepared to sacrifice their lives for others.?


ringo writes:

Survival of the species.

The only difference between my idealized "Body of Christ" and your hoped-for global communion of socialism is that your body has no head. And that may prove to be a BIG difference.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"We, humans, are engaged in an ongoing war of ideologies. I see it in this microcosm of EvC Forum just as I see it in the governments and attitudes of people throughout the world. Take your pick: Oppression or Seduction .
"~Thugpreacha

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

“As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”
? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith


This message is a reply to:
 Message 380 by ringo, posted 11-29-2019 10:52 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 398 by ringo, posted 11-30-2019 10:40 AM Thugpreacha has not yet responded

  
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 13375
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 385 of 591 (867627)
11-29-2019 3:17 PM
Reply to: Message 372 by AZPaul3
11-29-2019 5:39 AM


Re: Mainstream Christian Belief
AZPaul3 writes:

Any gods that would purposefully create *this* world of morbid depravity in which to place their “greatest” creation with the prospect of a large percentage of that flock being denied the “still small voice” and thus are to be tortured for all eternity, are not ones to be revered as infinitely loving, caring, forgiving, but are ones to be reviled as hateful, bloodthirsty and evil.

We need to get this "still-small-voice issue clarified. I believe that I have it. Do you? Do you even want it? Or do you simply define "it" as your own conscience?

We do not insist your gods act in accord with our moral views. You can make them as evil or loving as you so desire. But, if you insist your gods are responsible for this world and all that’s in it then we will judge them according to the realities we find in this world.
We can judge and indict the god character, but I believe we will collectively and individually be judged by God, as described as being eternal and interactive with us as He was with Job.

If you insist that *your* gods created this world in these terms then you must accept that your gods are the greatest evil in the universe.
No, I do not have any greater knowledge of either good or evil than God does. You can imagine humans as putting God On Trial. and perhaps that is a useful exercise in the expansion of our responsibility as well as His.

Edited by Thugpreacha, : link


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"We, humans, are engaged in an ongoing war of ideologies. I see it in this microcosm of EvC Forum just as I see it in the governments and attitudes of people throughout the world. Take your pick: Oppression or Seduction .
"~Thugpreacha

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

“As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”
? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith


This message is a reply to:
 Message 372 by AZPaul3, posted 11-29-2019 5:39 AM AZPaul3 has acknowledged this reply

  
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 13375
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 386 of 591 (867628)
11-29-2019 3:32 PM
Reply to: Message 382 by Faith
11-29-2019 2:49 PM


Re: Mainstream Christian Belief
Although to be fair, I am still asking questions. I know that God has the answers and seek a closer meditative and prayerful relationship with Him. I don't learn much about how believers think here at EvC, but I do learn many of the lines of reasoning and questioning that lead so many in this world to reject the God of scripture. jar argues that the Bible is not a cohesive whole, but I see value in studying it that way. I also consider how he studies it, but it does not help me get closer to God. It actually causes me to understand atheism a bit better. I don't see jar as an atheist, but sometimes I wonder which side sent him as an internet teacher.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"We, humans, are engaged in an ongoing war of ideologies. I see it in this microcosm of EvC Forum just as I see it in the governments and attitudes of people throughout the world. Take your pick: Oppression or Seduction .
"~Thugpreacha

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

“As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”
? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith


This message is a reply to:
 Message 382 by Faith, posted 11-29-2019 2:49 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 31771
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 387 of 591 (867629)
11-29-2019 3:32 PM
Reply to: Message 382 by Faith
11-29-2019 2:49 PM


Re: Mainstream Christian Belief
No Faith, you have not shown it. And honestly you cannot show it since there never was a Fall. It's certainly not in Genesis 2&3 and Paul's silly "through one man ..." quote is also totally and completely refuted by Genesis 2&3.

The Fall is just a carny conjob designed to fool the rubes.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 382 by Faith, posted 11-29-2019 2:49 PM Faith has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 389 by Thugpreacha, posted 11-29-2019 3:35 PM jar has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 31771
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 388 of 591 (867630)
11-29-2019 3:34 PM
Reply to: Message 383 by Thugpreacha
11-29-2019 3:01 PM


Re: Mainstream Christian Belief
Phat writes:

I believe though obviously cannot prove that GOD lives through Jesus Christ transferred to humanity through the Holy Spirit, which is far more than a human-created marketing tool.

But that too is just another word salad bumper sticker with no real meaning. Throw it away!


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 383 by Thugpreacha, posted 11-29-2019 3:01 PM Thugpreacha has not yet responded

  
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 13375
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 389 of 591 (867631)
11-29-2019 3:35 PM
Reply to: Message 387 by jar
11-29-2019 3:32 PM


Re: Mainstream Christian Belief
The carny cons again? Sheesh. Do you think Paul was himself a con? You do mention that he was attempting to start a new religion. One thing I like about Paul is that he teaches us to see an unknown god as a knowable God through Jesus. Do you see that in his teaching?

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"We, humans, are engaged in an ongoing war of ideologies. I see it in this microcosm of EvC Forum just as I see it in the governments and attitudes of people throughout the world. Take your pick: Oppression or Seduction .
"~Thugpreacha

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

“As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”
? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith


This message is a reply to:
 Message 387 by jar, posted 11-29-2019 3:32 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 390 by jar, posted 11-29-2019 3:59 PM Thugpreacha has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 31771
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 390 of 591 (867632)
11-29-2019 3:59 PM
Reply to: Message 389 by Thugpreacha
11-29-2019 3:35 PM


Re: Mainstream Christian Belief
Phat writes:

Do you think Paul was himself a con?

At times, absolutely. A great example is the "Temple of the Unknown God" gambit. It works. But we need to be honest and acknowledge when marketing happens and separate the acceptable marketing from what should not be acceptable. And that's the really hard part. What actually sells the steak and what is just selling the sizzle. One presents the reality while the other markets a fantasy.

Phat writes:

One thing I like about Paul is that he teaches us to see an unknown god as a knowable God through Jesus. Do you see that in his teaching?

At times. But the problem is that in modern Christianity the current crop of Snake Oil Salesmen only take pieces parts out of context. They sell John 3:16 but not the rest of the passage that explains what is being discussed is not Jesus but rather human behavior. They take nuggets out of Romans but neglect the fact that it is a long memo where the second have answer the issues raised in the beginning.

The Carny Spiel-man knows his audience has the attention span of a dormouse and that his job is to get them to buy the ticket. It's not to waste effort delivering the product advertised.

Take an example I know you and I have discussed a brazillion times; the "I have fought the good fight ..." soliloquy.

How often do you see it taught as "I have fought THE GOOD fight..." "I have RUN the race..."

How often has the lesson of discrimination; not of winning but of selecting the Good fight; not of winning the race but RUNNING the race? Why is Christianity marketed as the EASY path, the goal at the end, the reward to be gained rather than the call to do, to try, the little things that make even just your immediate surrounding better, the quiet unrewarded and mostly unnoticed small acts that make someone's day just a little better.

You so often talk about a Social Club yet seem to miss the fact that those on the outside look at fundamental evangelical Christianity and that is exactly what they see; a feel good mutual masturbation orgy held once a week in a tax exempt clubhouse.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 389 by Thugpreacha, posted 11-29-2019 3:35 PM Thugpreacha has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 391 by Thugpreacha, posted 11-29-2019 4:34 PM jar has responded

  
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