Understanding through Discussion


Welcome! You are not logged in. [ Login ]
EvC Forum active members: 84 (8950 total)
26 online now:
caffeine, PaulK, Tangle, vimesey (4 members, 22 visitors)
Newest Member: Mikee
Post Volume: Total: 867,077 Year: 22,113/19,786 Month: 676/1,834 Week: 176/500 Day: 4/69 Hour: 1/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Christianity is Morally Bankrupt
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 13375
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 391 of 590 (867633)
11-29-2019 4:34 PM
Reply to: Message 390 by jar
11-29-2019 3:59 PM


Re: Mainstream Christian Belief
jar writes:

But we need to be honest and acknowledge when marketing happens and separate the acceptable marketing from what should not be acceptable. And that's the really hard part. What actually sells the steak and what is just selling the sizzle. One presents the reality while the other markets a fantasy.


I agree. I feel it is totally honest to sell the message of Christ in us. You seem more inclined to emphasize that it is what *we* do for others. But you believe that anyone who calls themselves a Christian automatically is one, whereas the evidence that I have seen is that it is a transition. A renewing of the mind.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"We, humans, are engaged in an ongoing war of ideologies. I see it in this microcosm of EvC Forum just as I see it in the governments and attitudes of people throughout the world. Take your pick: Oppression or Seduction .
"~Thugpreacha

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

“As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”
? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith


This message is a reply to:
 Message 390 by jar, posted 11-29-2019 3:59 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 392 by jar, posted 11-29-2019 5:27 PM Thugpreacha has responded
 Message 393 by Faith, posted 11-29-2019 6:20 PM Thugpreacha has acknowledged this reply

  
jar
Member
Posts: 31771
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 392 of 590 (867634)
11-29-2019 5:27 PM
Reply to: Message 391 by Thugpreacha
11-29-2019 4:34 PM


Re: Mainstream Christian Belief
Phat writes:

I feel it is totally honest to sell the message of Christ in us.

But what does that even mean? Where's the beef?

Phat writes:

But you believe that anyone who calls themselves a Christian automatically is one, whereas the evidence that I have seen is that it is a transition. A renewing of the mind.

Again, what does that even mean? What the hell is a "renewing of the mind"? Where's the beef?


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 391 by Thugpreacha, posted 11-29-2019 4:34 PM Thugpreacha has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 401 by Thugpreacha, posted 11-30-2019 12:02 PM jar has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 33886
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


(1)
Message 393 of 590 (867638)
11-29-2019 6:20 PM
Reply to: Message 391 by Thugpreacha
11-29-2019 4:34 PM


Re: Mainstream Christian Belief
Please stop using the words "sell" and "market" in relation to the gospel of Christ

This message is a reply to:
 Message 391 by Thugpreacha, posted 11-29-2019 4:34 PM Thugpreacha has acknowledged this reply

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 5052
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 394 of 590 (867639)
11-29-2019 7:16 PM
Reply to: Message 381 by Tangle
11-29-2019 12:45 PM


Re: Mainstream Christian Belief
GDR writes:

Why would a mindless process evolve to bring about creatures that are prepared to sacrifice their lives for others.? Does that make any sense to you at all?

Tangle writes:

You can't avoid the question by diverting it.

Which is exactly what you have done.
Tangle writes:

The question remains, why would your god do that?

It is an unavoidable feature of creatures that can only freely choose good if evil is also a choice. Things like tsunamis and cancer are unavoidable features of a world where time only flows in one direction meaning that we are subject to entropy and decay. Ultimately in a renewed existence this will be made right.

GDR writes:

That is your unevidenced faith, and even if correct it is your unevidenced faith that the evolutionary process that naturally brought about this result had a natural root.

Tangle writes:

It's not unevidenced but never mind. It doesn't matter what my explanation for suffering is,

..and again you avoid the question by diverting it.
Tangle writes:

you still can't explain why it makes sense to you given the god you believe in.

I just did as I've done before even in this thread. Just because you reject the answer doesn't mean that I didn't answer it.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 381 by Tangle, posted 11-29-2019 12:45 PM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 396 by Tangle, posted 11-30-2019 3:11 AM GDR has responded
 Message 414 by Percy, posted 12-01-2019 9:43 AM GDR has responded

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 5052
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 2.8


(1)
Message 395 of 590 (867640)
11-29-2019 7:32 PM
Reply to: Message 380 by ringo
11-29-2019 10:52 AM


Re: Mainstream Christian Belief
GDR writes:

Why would a mindless process evolve to bring about creatures that are prepared to sacrifice their lives for others.?

ringo writes:

Survival of the species.

Where is the evidence for that? Which species would qualify?

Do you really think that a soldier who throws himself on a grenade to save his buddies is thinking that he has to keep the species going? No - He is doing it because he believes that it is the right thing to do. Even a world that is the result of mindlessness why is anything right or wrong.

From an evolutionary POV you can argue that it is all about preserving the gene pool. However, why do people sacrifice for for other creatures that are far from their gene pool.

I can accept the suggestion that all of this could have evolved but not from a non-intelligent root.


He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 380 by ringo, posted 11-29-2019 10:52 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 397 by dwise1, posted 11-30-2019 5:11 AM GDR has responded
 Message 399 by ringo, posted 11-30-2019 10:50 AM GDR has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 7202
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.3


Message 396 of 590 (867647)
11-30-2019 3:11 AM
Reply to: Message 394 by GDR
11-29-2019 7:16 PM


Re: Mainstream Christian Belief
GDR writes:

You can't avoid the question by diverting it.
Which is exactly what you have done.

This is disingenuous. The question was for you to answer.

You put a very big premium on this 'still small voice of god' that you say is our conscience. I asked you why god denies that voice to millions of his creation. It's an important question that gets to the core of your belief. Can you explain it?

It is an unavoidable feature of creatures that can only freely choose good if evil is also a choice.

Those denied the still small voice of god have no choice do they?

Things like tsunamis and cancer are unavoidable features of a world where time only flows in one direction meaning that we are subject to entropy and decay. Ultimately in a renewed existence this will be made right.

That's just rationalised waffle. Your god has apparently created two other worlds where those things were seemingly not necessary - the Garden of Eden and Heaven.

And how come this god of yours needs to 'put things right'? Why not do it right to start with? Why do it at all? He appears to be running a vile experiment.

And how can he put things right? Will the murdering psychopath denied access to the 'still small voice' be allowed through the Pearly Gates regardless?


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 394 by GDR, posted 11-29-2019 7:16 PM GDR has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 400 by GDR, posted 11-30-2019 11:10 AM Tangle has responded

  
dwise1
Member
Posts: 3868
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 3.3


Message 397 of 590 (867649)
11-30-2019 5:11 AM
Reply to: Message 395 by GDR
11-29-2019 7:32 PM


Re: Mainstream Christian Belief
From an evolutionary POV you can argue that it is all about preserving the gene pool. However, why do people sacrifice for for other creatures that are far from their gene pool.

Yes, behavior that would promote the representation of one's genes in subsequent generations would be selected for since said behavior helped to ensure the survival and reproduction of one's kin who share the genes leading to that kind of behavior.

Evolutionary changes in wetware, such as establishing altruism, can take a long time. What kind of societies did our ancestors live in when they evolved the innate emotional attachments to kin and inclinations to act altruistically for the benefit of their kin? Small tribes in which most members were related to each other, such that sacrificing yourself for a tribe member would very likely mean doing it for your kin -- or Plan B your sacrifice would ensure the survival of the tribe which would protect and provide for your immediate family and other kin.

The social environment in which those emotions, attitudes, and inclinations evolved was very different from our present social environment, but those emotions, attitudes, and inclinations are still a part of us. So our response to the changing social environment has been to adapt what we feel to the new environment. That involves extending our sense of altruistic obligation to many whom we do not share kinship with, even though those "instincts" had originally evolved on the basis of kinship.

So a soldier sacrificing himself to save his "brothers" (not just "buddies" as you try to trivialize their close relationship) is the application of his inbred altruistic "instincts" to protect his kin, but with a very extended sense of "kinship". One which may make no logical sense in terms of actual sharing of genes, but then such acts of altruism are very rarely performed logically.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 395 by GDR, posted 11-29-2019 7:32 PM GDR has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 403 by GDR, posted 11-30-2019 12:12 PM dwise1 has not yet responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 17666
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 398 of 590 (867653)
11-30-2019 10:40 AM
Reply to: Message 384 by Thugpreacha
11-29-2019 3:06 PM


Re: Mainstream Christian Belief
Phat writes:

The only difference between my idealized "Body of Christ" and your hoped-for global communion of socialism is that your body has no head. And that may prove to be a BIG difference.


On the contrary, the body has millions of heads. It just has no figurehead. We figured out a long time ago that two heads are better than one and many hands make light work. It's our hands that are doing all the work.

"If you can keep your head when all about you
Are losing theirs and blaming it on you...."
-- Rudyard Kipling

This message is a reply to:
 Message 384 by Thugpreacha, posted 11-29-2019 3:06 PM Thugpreacha has not yet responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 17666
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 399 of 590 (867654)
11-30-2019 10:50 AM
Reply to: Message 395 by GDR
11-29-2019 7:32 PM


Re: Mainstream Christian Belief
GDR writes:

Where is the evidence for that?


Evolution 101.

GDR writes:

Which species would qualify?


All social species, for sure. Ants and bees are particularly obvious example.

GDR writes:

Do you really think that a soldier who throws himself on a grenade to save his buddies is thinking that he has to keep the species going?


Indirectly, yes. He wants his buddies to survive to propagate the species.

GDR writes:

Even a world that is the result of mindlessness why is anything right or wrong.


Right and wrong has nothing to do with some alien mind. It's about what's right or wrong for us, our species. Occasionally we take some other species into account too but mostly because it benefits us.

"If you can keep your head when all about you
Are losing theirs and blaming it on you...."
-- Rudyard Kipling

This message is a reply to:
 Message 395 by GDR, posted 11-29-2019 7:32 PM GDR has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 404 by GDR, posted 11-30-2019 12:23 PM ringo has responded

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 5052
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 400 of 590 (867657)
11-30-2019 11:10 AM
Reply to: Message 396 by Tangle
11-30-2019 3:11 AM


Re: Mainstream Christian Belief
Tangle writes:

This is disingenuous. The question was for you to answer.

The question was for me to answer, (which I did), but it was also to point out that we both have difficult questions to answer to support our positions.
Tangle writes:

You put a very big premium on this 'still small voice of god' that you say is our conscience. I asked you why god denies that voice to millions of his creation. It's an important question that gets to the core of your belief. Can you explain it?

As I said in a world that is necessarily subject to entropy and decay we find that a very small number have a specific mental illness that leaves them without a moral conscience. Remember, we aren't talking about what happens to them in the next life, but about fulfilling the job of what humans are called to in this one.

Tangle writes:

That's just rationalised waffle. Your god has apparently created two other worlds where those things were seemingly not necessary - the Garden of Eden and Heaven.

That might be a question for Faith to answer but I see the garden of eden being ancient mythology that metaphorically tells us that we are created and that we have the knowledge of good and evil and that we are to choose goodness. As for heaven I simply see it as God's universe/dimension and the answer is currently above my pay grade. I'll have an answer for you in the next life.

Tangle writes:

And how come this god of yours needs to 'put things right'? Why not do it right to start with? Why do it at all? He appears to be running a vile experiment.

You do seem to want to focus on the negative aspects of existence but I suggest that there are a lot more positives than negatives. I'm sure that there are far more people happy that they were born as to those who aren't.

Tangle writes:

And how can he put things right? Will the murdering psychopath denied access to the 'still small voice' be allowed through the Pearly Gates regardless?

Well the "pearly gates' makes for an interesting metaphor but the answer is I don't know. Even the Bible says that we aren't to judge, however I definitely would not say that the individual would be excluded and if you want my opinion I would believe that he/she will be there with a renewed healthy mind.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 396 by Tangle, posted 11-30-2019 3:11 AM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 406 by Tangle, posted 11-30-2019 12:50 PM GDR has responded

  
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 13375
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 401 of 590 (867658)
11-30-2019 12:02 PM
Reply to: Message 392 by jar
11-29-2019 5:27 PM


Re: Mainstream Christian Belief
jar writes:

Again, what does that even mean? What the hell is a "renewing of the mind"? Where's the beef?

By "Beef" do you mean evidence? Works? or Value?

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"We, humans, are engaged in an ongoing war of ideologies. I see it in this microcosm of EvC Forum just as I see it in the governments and attitudes of people throughout the world. Take your pick: Oppression or Seduction .
"~Thugpreacha

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

“As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”
? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith


This message is a reply to:
 Message 392 by jar, posted 11-29-2019 5:27 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 402 by jar, posted 11-30-2019 12:07 PM Thugpreacha has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 31771
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 402 of 590 (867659)
11-30-2019 12:07 PM
Reply to: Message 401 by Thugpreacha
11-30-2019 12:02 PM


Re: Mainstream Christian Belief
I mean what the hell does that word salad even mean?

Modern Fundamental Evangelical Christianity seems to be nothing but feel good slogans and FUD (Fear, Uncertainty & Doubt). It appears to be 100% marketing but with absolutely no actual product. It's not even selling the sizzle, it's selling the imaginary sizzle.

What the hell is a "renewing of the mind"?


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 401 by Thugpreacha, posted 11-30-2019 12:02 PM Thugpreacha has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 407 by Thugpreacha, posted 11-30-2019 2:57 PM jar has responded

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 5052
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 403 of 590 (867660)
11-30-2019 12:12 PM
Reply to: Message 397 by dwise1
11-30-2019 5:11 AM


Re: Mainstream Christian Belief
dwise1 writes:

Yes, behavior that would promote the representation of one's genes in subsequent generations would be selected for since said behavior helped to ensure the survival and reproduction of one's kin who share the genes leading to that kind of behavior.

Evolutionary changes in wetware, such as establishing altruism, can take a long time. What kind of societies did our ancestors live in when they evolved the innate emotional attachments to kin and inclinations to act altruistically for the benefit of their kin? Small tribes in which most members were related to each other, such that sacrificing yourself for a tribe member would very likely mean doing it for your kin -- or Plan B your sacrifice would ensure the survival of the tribe which would protect and provide for your immediate family and other kin.

The social environment in which those emotions, attitudes, and inclinations evolved was very different from our present social environment, but those emotions, attitudes, and inclinations are still a part of us. So our response to the changing social environment has been to adapt what we feel to the new environment. That involves extending our sense of altruistic obligation to many whom we do not share kinship with, even though those "instincts" had originally evolved on the basis of kinship.

Good post. However it doesn't really argue against my belief. It is an observation of how empathy and altruism could have evolved over a considerable span of time. The question though is the whole process of an evolving altruism the result of nothing but mindless particles combining by chance, or is it part of a larger plan but an external intelligence.

After reading the "Selfish Gene' I came to believe that Dawkins was on to something with his suggestion of memes as social replicators. As I said earlier I think that when Christianity talks about God's Holy Spirit it can also be thought of as our conscience, or that "still small voice of God" or even as a God meme, that exists in all of us.

Your point of an evolving sense of altruism or empathy describes how that God meme can gradually more and more impact a society as it also has an affect on the natural memes that are passed on to others. However, the selfish memes are powerful and still drive societies away from empathetic feelings for others, and repressing their conscience or a God meme.

The question is not about how altruism evolves but about why it is possible.


He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 397 by dwise1, posted 11-30-2019 5:11 AM dwise1 has not yet responded

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 5052
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 404 of 590 (867661)
11-30-2019 12:23 PM
Reply to: Message 399 by ringo
11-30-2019 10:50 AM


Re: Mainstream Christian Belief
ringo writes:

Evolution 101.

..which is about evolving physicality.

ringo writes:

All social species, for sure. Ants and bees are particularly obvious example.

OK, but do they have a consciousness that makes what they are doing a conscious choice?
ringo writes:

ndirectly, yes. He wants his buddies to survive to propagate the species.

..but it also means that his own specific gene pool is coming to an abrupt halt.
ringo writes:

Right and wrong has nothing to do with some alien mind. It's about what's right or wrong for us, our species. Occasionally we take some other species into account too but mostly because it benefits us.

Why does it benefit individual North Americans to send aid to places like Africa? I can see where it would be a benefit to us to enslave the Africans that would be useful and slaughter the rest so that we could benefit from their resources. Thank heavens though it isn't like that, and we are able to think beyond selfishness and respond sacrificially to the needs of others.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 399 by ringo, posted 11-30-2019 10:50 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 405 by ringo, posted 11-30-2019 12:43 PM GDR has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 17666
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 405 of 590 (867662)
11-30-2019 12:43 PM
Reply to: Message 404 by GDR
11-30-2019 12:23 PM


Re: Mainstream Christian Belief
GDR writes:

which is about evolving physicality.


Everything is physicality, including the mind.

GDR writes:

OK, but do they have a consciousness that makes what they are doing a conscious choice?


Why is "conscious choice" important? Parents don't make a concious choice to feed their children, do they?

GDR writes:

..but it also means that his own specific gene pool is coming to an abrupt halt.


Again, why is that important? We do some things to preserve ourselves and some things to preserve our friends/family/tribe/species. The internal conflicts about what to preserve are the cause of most of our problems.

GDR writes:

I can see where it would be a benefit to us to enslave the Africans that would be useful and slaughter the rest so that we could benefit from their resources.


As it turns out, slavery is not economically viable after all. And by helping the Africans in Africa, we make them less likely to come over here to compete directly with us. Human behaviour is more complex than some spook telling us what to do.

"If you can keep your head when all about you
Are losing theirs and blaming it on you...."
-- Rudyard Kipling

This message is a reply to:
 Message 404 by GDR, posted 11-30-2019 12:23 PM GDR has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 411 by GDR, posted 11-30-2019 7:48 PM ringo has responded

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2018 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.0 Beta
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2019