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Author Topic:   Christianity is Morally Bankrupt
Tangle
Member
Posts: 7203
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.3


Message 406 of 591 (867663)
11-30-2019 12:50 PM
Reply to: Message 400 by GDR
11-30-2019 11:10 AM


Re: Mainstream Christian Belief
GDR writes:

The question was for me to answer, (which I did),

Uh? How?

but it was also to point out that we both have difficult questions to answer to support our positions.

I don’t have a position. To me it’s just a matter of scientific enquiry. If you want to discuss the evolved trait of empathy - which is the emotion that governs our altruistic behaviour and is a trait that many other species possess to varying degrees - I suggest you open a thread for it in the science forum. Meanwhile you need to defend your actual belief.

As I said in a world that is necessarily subject to entropy and decay we find that a very small number have a specific mental illness that leaves them without a moral conscience. Remember, we aren't talking about what happens to them in the next life, but about fulfilling the job of what humans are called to in this one.

That’s not an answer, that’s a restatement of the question.

You do seem to want to focus on the negative aspects of existence but I suggest that there are a lot more positives than negatives.

Seem to? That’s the entire point - why should there be any negative at all? Why does a loving god torture his creation to any extent at all but specifically, why deprive millions of people of ‘his still small voice’?

I'm sure that there are far more people happy that they were born as to those who aren't.

Irrelevant

Well the "pearly gates' makes for an interesting metaphor but the answer is I don't know. Even the Bible says that we aren't to judge, however I definitely would not say that the individual would be excluded and if you want my opinion I would believe that he/she will be there with a renewed healthy mind.

Well, of course you can invent any nonsense you like. But even that doesn’t explain why any of this is necessary at all


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 400 by GDR, posted 11-30-2019 11:10 AM GDR has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 408 by Thugpreacha, posted 11-30-2019 3:07 PM Tangle has responded
 Message 412 by GDR, posted 11-30-2019 8:14 PM Tangle has responded

  
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 13375
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 407 of 591 (867668)
11-30-2019 2:57 PM
Reply to: Message 402 by jar
11-30-2019 12:07 PM


Re: Mainstream Christian Belief
AZPaul3 writes:

You can endow your gods with any attributes you may desire as long as you are logically consistent in their application.

OK, let's break down the sources which believers use to assign the God we feel with definable characteristics. The Bible is of course where everybody starts, in regards to the Trinitarian Christian concept, at least. The Doctrine of the Trinity itself was contagious. Our very own jar, the sage of logic, is quoted as saying: Message 247
quote:
And in reality the Holy Spirit was a late political creation that evolved over time and was created solely by humans.
. It's all "created" by humans, but some of us define this creative process as what GDR calls "Progressive Understanding."

You and i approach these discussions with different worldviews. You are quite certain God does not exist in any way shape or form. I am convinced He does. Beyond that, I can agree.

jar writes:

Modern Fundamental Evangelical Christianity seems to be nothing but feel-good slogans and FUD (Fear, Uncertainty & Doubt). It appears to be 100% marketing but with absolutely no actual product. It's not even selling the sizzle, it's selling the imaginary sizzle.

Let's agree on metaphors. First of all, I see the steak as the existence and interaction of the Creator himself. In Him is life...by definition the entire creative expressive force known as life itself. To limit your belief to what is objectively and empirically evidential, I can't prove His essence objectively though feel aware of it internally. (thus subjectively) I don't believe that the message has value, even if simply a tale told among humanity. God becomes real initially through simple faith and belief but becomes knowable through interaction. You claim that the God of evangelicals is small and pitiful. Given that you envision a larger One, communion and thoughtful meditation and interaction is quite likely. The Product is God.

AddByEdit: Through Holy Communion, we become extensions of the product. Thus Christianity is about what you do and believe both.

Edited by Thugpreacha, : No reason given.

Edited by Thugpreacha, : No reason given.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"We, humans, are engaged in an ongoing war of ideologies. I see it in this microcosm of EvC Forum just as I see it in the governments and attitudes of people throughout the world. Take your pick: Oppression or Seduction .
"~Thugpreacha

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

“As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”
? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith


This message is a reply to:
 Message 402 by jar, posted 11-30-2019 12:07 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 409 by jar, posted 11-30-2019 3:24 PM Thugpreacha has responded

  
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 13375
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 408 of 591 (867671)
11-30-2019 3:07 PM
Reply to: Message 406 by Tangle
11-30-2019 12:50 PM


Re: Mainstream Christian Belief
Tangle writes:

I don’t have a position.

Nor do you have a product. You let your trust in science as you understand it to eliminate any belief in God that you may have ever had. One side says "so what? The evidence shows you made him up."

The other side says that belief in Him is irrelevant. That if He exists, no amount of evidence to the contrary will have any effect.

Surely a God that you chose to believe in is much bigger than the tyrant that you yourself limit through the descriptions in the book (which you chose to focus on).

God, if God exists is not limited to a narrative in a storybook. We believe he is good. Well...jar believes He is "complete" whatever that means. Personally, I feel that God allowed evil to exist in order to house an aspect of His completeness that He chose not to embody or internalize. hence, the attitude fell on Lucifer.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"We, humans, are engaged in an ongoing war of ideologies. I see it in this microcosm of EvC Forum just as I see it in the governments and attitudes of people throughout the world. Take your pick: Oppression or Seduction .
"~Thugpreacha

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

“As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”
? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith


This message is a reply to:
 Message 406 by Tangle, posted 11-30-2019 12:50 PM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 410 by Tangle, posted 11-30-2019 4:41 PM Thugpreacha has not yet responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 31771
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 409 of 591 (867672)
11-30-2019 3:24 PM
Reply to: Message 407 by Thugpreacha
11-30-2019 2:57 PM


Re: Mainstream Christian Belief
Phat writes:

God becomes real initially through simple faith and belief but becomes knowable through interaction.

Gods can only exist as long as there are believers. This is true of all the Gods.

There has never been any evidence of any interaction between humans and God. There are lots of tales of interaction, all equally likely. Some examples are the God talking with Adam & Eve and Thetis dunking Achilles and Muhammad taking notes from Jibril or Artemis turning Actaeon into a deer and setting his own hounds on him because he stared at her while she was bathing.

So yes, we can know God through the tales of their interactions with humans.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 407 by Thugpreacha, posted 11-30-2019 2:57 PM Thugpreacha has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 415 by Thugpreacha, posted 12-01-2019 11:18 AM jar has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 7203
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.3


Message 410 of 591 (867673)
11-30-2019 4:41 PM
Reply to: Message 408 by Thugpreacha
11-30-2019 3:07 PM


Re: Mainstream Christian Belief
Phat writes:

Nor do you have a product.

What does that mean? Anything?

You let your trust in science as you understand it to eliminate any belief in God that you may have ever had.

Do try to stop making stuff up. I didn't stop believing in god because of science, I stopped believing because it was obvious bollox. I had a revelation.

Surely a God that you chose to believe in is much bigger than the tyrant that you yourself limit through the descriptions in the book (which you chose to focus on).

What? The book IS your belief. Without the book you wouldn't have the belief you have. There's nothing else but your imagination.

God, if God exists is not limited to a narrative in a storybook. We believe he is good. Well...jar believes He is "complete" whatever that means. Personally, I feel that God allowed evil to exist in order to house an aspect of His completeness that He chose not to embody or internalize. hence, the attitude fell on Lucifer.

You 'believe', you 'feel'. You just make whatever shit up that you like.

And, btw, do you want to try to answer the bloody question?

Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 408 by Thugpreacha, posted 11-30-2019 3:07 PM Thugpreacha has not yet responded

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 5052
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 411 of 591 (867675)
11-30-2019 7:48 PM
Reply to: Message 405 by ringo
11-30-2019 12:43 PM


Re: Mainstream Christian Belief
ringo writes:

Everything is physicality, including the mind.

That is your belief. I agree with Plato that the brain is an instrument of the mind.

ringo writes:

Why is "conscious choice" important? Parents don't make a concious choice to feed their children, do they?

They kinda do because over history some have chosen not to. Conscious choice is important to separate that choice from what I suspect is instinct in an ant.

ringo writes:

Again, why is that important? We do some things to preserve ourselves and some things to preserve our friends/family/tribe/species. The internal conflicts about what to preserve are the cause of most of our problems.

I simply pointed out that a soldier who falls on a grenade to save the lives of others is bringing his particular gene pool to an abrupt halt.

ringo writes:

Human behaviour is more complex than some spook telling us what to do.

I never said that it wasn't. The God meme is one of many memes. Using the term spook isn't really the way to facilitate a civil discussion.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 405 by ringo, posted 11-30-2019 12:43 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 439 by ringo, posted 12-02-2019 10:52 AM GDR has responded

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 5052
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 412 of 591 (867676)
11-30-2019 8:14 PM
Reply to: Message 406 by Tangle
11-30-2019 12:50 PM


Re: Mainstream Christian Belief
Tangle writes:

That’s not an answer, that’s a restatement of the question.

I guess I'm too subtle. The point is simply that I'm contending that entrpy and decay are a necessary aspect of our universe and it sometimes results in mental illness.

Tangle writes:

Seem to? That’s the entire point - why should there be any negative at all? Why does a loving god torture his creation to any extent at all but specifically, why deprive millions of people of ‘his still small voice’?

Again, there is negative because it is a necessary aspect of this world, and there are negative side effects that include mental illness. Thankfully we have been given the ability to mitigate much of the negative.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 406 by Tangle, posted 11-30-2019 12:50 PM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 413 by Tangle, posted 12-01-2019 2:55 AM GDR has not yet responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 7203
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.3


Message 413 of 591 (867677)
12-01-2019 2:55 AM
Reply to: Message 412 by GDR
11-30-2019 8:14 PM


Re: Mainstream Christian Belief
GDR writes:

I guess I'm too subtle.

Subtlety is not the problem. Avoidance or not understanding of the question is the problem.

The point is simply that I'm contending that entrpy and decay are a necessary aspect of our universe and it sometimes results in mental illness.

Do'h. Entropy is a aspect of the universe that we inhabit. It's not a necessary aspect of a universe that a loving god would create. Nor is human decay a necessary component of of a universe that a loving god need create. It does not work as an idea - by making our universe this way your god proves that he's the psychopath.

Again, there is negative because it is a necessary aspect of this world, and there are negative side effects that include mental illness.

See above.

Thankfully we have been given the ability to mitigate much of the negative.

But we haven't! The psychopath cannot hear 'god's still small voice'! Why would a loving god deprive him of it?

Just saying that it's a necessary part of the way the world is does not answer that question because god made it that way. I'm asking why he did it that way when we know he didn't have to - in your belief heaven does not have these failings so why here?

Why does your god need this evil experiment on earth at all?


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 412 by GDR, posted 11-30-2019 8:14 PM GDR has not yet responded

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 19086
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 414 of 591 (867679)
12-01-2019 9:43 AM
Reply to: Message 394 by GDR
11-29-2019 7:16 PM


Re: Mainstream Christian Belief
This post was only a little behind the discussion when I started writing it, but it's a lot behind now because American has WiFi, not Internet which is extra. Back down on the ground, posting it anyway.

Tangle originally asked why a loving God would deny "access" to his "still small voice" to "a percentage of his flock." I'm interested in the answer to that question, too.

I just did as I've done before even in this thread. Just because you reject the answer doesn't mean that I didn't answer it.

Instead of seeing it as Tangle rejecting the answer, see it as describing why the answer makes no sense to him - or me.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 394 by GDR, posted 11-29-2019 7:16 PM GDR has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 416 by Thugpreacha, posted 12-01-2019 11:27 AM Percy has acknowledged this reply
 Message 425 by GDR, posted 12-01-2019 6:30 PM Percy has responded

  
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 13375
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 415 of 591 (867680)
12-01-2019 11:18 AM
Reply to: Message 409 by jar
11-30-2019 3:24 PM


Re: Mainstream Christian Belief
You are treating God (and/or the Risen Christ) the exact same way that you treat Santa Claus. But we've been over this before. It always jumps out at me, though. I refuse to throw God away. It puts 100% of the responsibility of good works on me. This would not be a problem in modern Christianity *if* spirit was simply a myth. But there is One God and One Holy Spirit. (no, boys and girls...it was not simply a political creation) and there are spirits of darkness. I' don't base my irrational belief on what I was taught through others. I base it on personal experience on a day to day basis. But lets set my beliefs aside for now.

jar has taught me much about personal responsibility as a Christian. The only reason I get mad at it is that it takes God out of the equation as a necessary part. Of course, he chose this belief. And if all one seeks in life is simply doing good for others, I'm quite sure that one wont be shunned by an angry God. but one may find that in these times we live in, altruistic humanism is not enough.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"We, humans, are engaged in an ongoing war of ideologies. I see it in this microcosm of EvC Forum just as I see it in the governments and attitudes of people throughout the world. Take your pick: Oppression or Seduction .
"~Thugpreacha

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

“As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”
? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith


This message is a reply to:
 Message 409 by jar, posted 11-30-2019 3:24 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 418 by jar, posted 12-01-2019 12:07 PM Thugpreacha has responded

  
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 13375
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 416 of 591 (867682)
12-01-2019 11:27 AM
Reply to: Message 414 by Percy
12-01-2019 9:43 AM


Mainstream Christian Belief vs Fringe Belief
In my opinion, this *still small voice* is available to everyone who believes. One cannot simply hear the voice in general. Not everyone automatically gets membership in the club without some sort of intellectual surrender...at least allowing for the possibility of something that on the surface is patently absurd.

jar would call it "checking your brains at the door." I would suggest a more apt metaphor. Laying your brains on the altar. Don't fret---you will get them back. That's basically a renewing of the mind. jar would be critical, calling it accepting the con of the conmen. In a sense, critics would call it "conning yourself."
\
And as to why everyone is not simply granted access? Because we would abuse the gift. The gift is not to be for our own personal gain.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"We, humans, are engaged in an ongoing war of ideologies. I see it in this microcosm of EvC Forum just as I see it in the governments and attitudes of people throughout the world. Take your pick: Oppression or Seduction .
"~Thugpreacha

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

“As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”
? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith


This message is a reply to:
 Message 414 by Percy, posted 12-01-2019 9:43 AM Percy has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
 Message 417 by Tangle, posted 12-01-2019 11:47 AM Thugpreacha has not yet responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 7203
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.3


Message 417 of 591 (867684)
12-01-2019 11:47 AM
Reply to: Message 416 by Thugpreacha
12-01-2019 11:27 AM


Re: Mainstream Christian Belief vs Fringe Belief
Phat writes:

In my opinion, this *still small voice* is available to everyone who believes. One cannot simply hear the voice in general.

I think you need to talk to GDR about this - as far as I'm know the idea of the 'still small voice' is that it's the human conscience. What makes people do altruistic things and it's not restricted to Christians.

it's obviously Not everyone automatically gets membership in the club without some sort of intellectual surrender...at least allowing for the possibility of something that on the surface is patently absurd.
jar would call it "checking your brains at the door." I would suggest a more apt metaphor. Laying your brains on the altar. Don't fret---you will get them back. That's basically a renewing of the mind. jar would be critical, calling it accepting the con of the conmen. In a sense, critics would call it "conning yourself."[/qs§]

Yeh well, this is just pure religious bullshit.

[qs§]And as to why everyone is not simply granted access? Because we would abuse the gift. The gift is not to be for our own personal gain.

More crap. You can manufacture it by the yard. This isn't your church, you can't expect nodding heads and amens when you spout this drivel here.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 416 by Thugpreacha, posted 12-01-2019 11:27 AM Thugpreacha has not yet responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 31771
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 418 of 591 (867686)
12-01-2019 12:07 PM
Reply to: Message 415 by Thugpreacha
12-01-2019 11:18 AM


Re: Mainstream Christian Belief
Phat writes:

You are treating God (and/or the Risen Christ) the exact same way that you treat Santa Claus.

How is "the Risen Christ" different than Santa Claus?

Phat writes:

It puts 100% of the responsibility of good works on me.

Why would that be a problem?

Phat writes:

but one may find that in these times we live in, altruistic humanism is not enough.

Yup. I believe I may have mentioned once or twice that Fundamental Evangelical Christianity is the single greatest threat to humanity that exists today.

Edited by jar, : fix quotebox


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 415 by Thugpreacha, posted 12-01-2019 11:18 AM Thugpreacha has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 419 by Thugpreacha, posted 12-01-2019 12:29 PM jar has responded

  
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 13375
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 419 of 591 (867688)
12-01-2019 12:29 PM
Reply to: Message 418 by jar
12-01-2019 12:07 PM


Re: Mainstream Christian Belief
let's analyze your assertion. Why is FEC(CCoI) such a great threat? Is it due to the politics which some of them get involved in? I agree that Christians should vote their conscience and not their flesh, for conservativism is akin to Christian Nationalism, which I disagree with.

Is it their belief in general? You claim that they market fantasy but be more specific.

As you know, I believe in the Spiritual realm. I have subjective experience with it, reinforced several times. I can question it, but its hard for me to doubt based on my experience. Some things are unevidenced and will remain unevidenced until after we die.

I know that Santa Claus was a myth. The same cannot be said (by me, at least) of Jesus.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"We, humans, are engaged in an ongoing war of ideologies. I see it in this microcosm of EvC Forum just as I see it in the governments and attitudes of people throughout the world. Take your pick: Oppression or Seduction .
"~Thugpreacha

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

“As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”
? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith


This message is a reply to:
 Message 418 by jar, posted 12-01-2019 12:07 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 420 by jar, posted 12-01-2019 1:21 PM Thugpreacha has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 31771
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 420 of 591 (867689)
12-01-2019 1:21 PM
Reply to: Message 419 by Thugpreacha
12-01-2019 12:29 PM


Fundamental Evangelical Christianity is the greatest threat to the world today
Fundamental Evangelical Christianity is divorced from reality and so the greatest threat to the continuation of humanity. US Fundamental Evangelical Christianity is the greatest of that group because it is the only body that actually has the capability to destroy humanity and since they are divorced from reality and sanity believe it is possible to destroy "THEM".

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 419 by Thugpreacha, posted 12-01-2019 12:29 PM Thugpreacha has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 421 by Thugpreacha, posted 12-01-2019 3:40 PM jar has responded

  
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