Christianity is Morally Bankrupt

US Fundamental Evangelical Christianity is the greatest of that group because it is the only body that actually has the capability to destroy humanity and since they are divorced from reality and sanity believe it is possible to destroy "THEM".

Are you suggesting that they see everyone not as themselves (having a transformed mind)as the enemy? Keep in mind that even among evangelicals, only a minority have transformed minds.
I know this has been true and is true for many individual members. Looking just at how the conservative Nationalists demonize Democrats is proof enough of authoritarian all-or-nothing thinking. But this is not true of all. It is likely true of the majority.

Edited by Thugpreacha, : slowing the argument down

Phat writes: Are you suggesting that they see everyone not as themselves (having a transformed mind)as the enemy?

Yes! And nonsense like "having a transformed mind" is the realm of the Carny Side Show; yet another sign of total disconnect from reality.

Lets cut to the chase. The inspiration behind the beliefs of many evangelicals historically has been the Romans Road To Salvation, a biblical concept.

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The Human Problem (Romans 3:10, Romans 3:23, and Romans 6:23)

The first part of the Romans Road confirms the state of every human as sinful and the state of God as holy.

“As it is written: “There is no one righteous, not even one;” (Romans 3:10)
“For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,” (Romans 3:23)
After establishing that “all have sinned,” the first half of Romans 6:23 explains the depth of this problem and its consequences.
“For the wages of sin is death…” (Romans 6:23a)

However, the second half of the verse hints at the hope sinners have for salvation through Jesus.

“…but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.” (Romans 6:23b)

Humanity’s Hope in Christ (Romans 5:8)

The second part of the Romans Road further explains the hope we have in the love of God expressed through Christ.

“But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.” (Romans 5:8)

The Sinner’s Response (Romans 10:9-10 and Romans 10:13)

Once we understand our need for a savior and recognize that Jesus Christ is that savior, we can respond by moving along to the third part of the Romans Road, calling out to Jesus.

“If you declare with your mouth, ‘Jesus is Lord,’ and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved.” (Romans 10:9-10)

This response is possible for everyone. Romans 10:13 expresses God’s ability to save everyone. (His intention to save everyone is further expressed in John 3:16-17)
“For, ‘Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.’” (Romans 10:13)

The Result of Salvation (Romans 5:1-2 and Romans 8:1)

The fourth part of the Romans Road mentions two results (peace and justification) after a sinner decides to declare and believe in their heart that Jesus Christ is Lord. Romans 5:1-2 explains that through faith in Jesus Christ, sinners can enjoy peace with God, no longer separated from holy God by sin.

“Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have gained access by faith into this grace in which we now stand.” (Romans 5:1-2)

Romans 8:1 rejoices in the result of salvation. Before faith in Christ, all who have sinned were condemned by their sin and destined for death. But now with faith in Christ, “there is no condemnation” (Romans 8:1) and believers are gifted eternal life with God (Romans 6:23).

“Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus,” (Romans 8:1)

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Unless you consider Paul himself to be a carny sideshow, these scriptures are the basic root of Biblical Christianity.

Quote mining. Palming the Pea. Misdirecting attention.

Utterly pointless.

Percy writes: Instead of seeing it as Tangle rejecting the answer, see it as describing why the answer makes no sense to him - or me.

I think the problem is that you want an answer that is absolute. I don't have an absolute answer in the same way that science does not apply an absolute answer as to why evolutionary processes have given us humans who can perform incredible deeds of self sacrifice for others as well as incredible acts of evil.

I am simply suggesting that in a world that is subject to entropy and decay, and an evolutionary process that requires mutations to progress, we have a world where mental illness, cancer and natural disasters can evolve. I am someone who is convinced that God is a god of love for all of His creatures and that God resurrected Jesus vindicating His life, message and death,

With that in mind I then can only believe that God has limitations in His relation to this world. But I also believe that this life is a prelude to the life that you and Tangle complain that we don't have now.

And again, this is belief it isn't an absolute.

With that in mind I then can only believe that God has limitations in His relation to this world. But I also believe that this life is a prelude to the life that you and Tangle complain that we don't have now.

So it makes sense to you that your gods are powerful enough they can make a fantasy world, an after-life world, free of the morbid depravity of this actual live-reality world but are too powerless to do so in this real world? Really?

I think you’re reaching for something that isn’t there. Trying to justify something that has no reality.

This is the smoke in front of the mirrors.

So it makes sense to you that your gods are powerful enough they can make a fantasy world, an after-life world, free of the morbid depravity of this actual live-reality world but are too powerless to do so in this real world? Really?

we still have to collectively learn thay we cant evolve out of it. I dont know why people have a problem with God qiving us a way out of our animal selves. I also think it incredulous that jar and ringo think a good God would let everyone be the way they are now.

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I am simply suggesting that in a world that is subject to entropy and decay, and an evolutionary process that requires mutations to progress, we have a world where mental illness, cancer and natural disasters can evolve.

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Which is less than half an answer. The main part would be to explain why God would create such a world.

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With that in mind I then can only believe that God has limitations in His relation to this world.

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Since this world is - supposedly - entirely created by God, any limits would be either fundamental or self-inflicted.

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I dont know why people have a problem with God qiving us a way out of our animal selves.

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That is not the issue. The issue is why we have a problem with our ‘animal selves” in the first place. Can’t God do better ? And if he can’t how could he fix it?

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I also think it incredulous that jar and ringo think a good God would let everyone be the way they are now

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Obviously things are the way they are now, and if there is a God he has let it be that way.

PaulK writes: Which is less than half an answer. The main part would be to explain why God would create such a world.

Would you rather there was nothing?

PaulK writes: Since this world is - supposedly - entirely created by God, any limits would be either fundamental or self-inflicted.

I'd go with fundamental.

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Would you rather there was nothing?

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By which you mean “God can’t do any better”

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I'd go with fundamental.

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Then you can’t expect the afterlife to be any better.

Again with the con-man reference. Whose attention am I attempting to misdirect? In my mind, I am merely supporting a position. You can't simply use the Bible to support your positions while denying me the same privilege.

In addition, this whole conman reference that you bring up ad nauseum here at EvC in regards to Evangelical Fundamentalist Christianity is an ongoing attempt to vilify me and "misdirect" the attention back to your argument. Must you bring that up every time I make a point? Finally, why do you get to support what the Bible says and I don't? Why is yours a plain reading while mine is an "attempt to palm the pea"?? I've no need to palm anything. You claim to be a believer but when we boil it all down, you only believe in what YOU can do and say and understand. You may have read the Bible, but you see no living God within its pages. The facts remain from Romans. None are righteous. All have sinned. Salvation is for everybody who is willing to accept the terms. This whole idea that everybody gets a free pass is a joke.

GDR writes: I think the problem is that you want an answer that is absolute.

I don't want an absolute answer, I want a general response that makes some logical sense. I can't make any sense of your answer.

The world as it is contradicts your belief in a loving god.

Just as a single, simple point, you believe that this 'still small voice of god' is responsible for freewill and conscience - why people do good things that might be against their own interests. Yet you accept that millions of people are deprived of this voice. Why? How is that the action of a loving god? How does that fit with free will and conscience?

But that's just a point of detail. The bigger question is why has god set the world up in this evil fashion, where every single one of his creation has to suffer in life and finally die whilst hoping that they've passed the obscure test to get into an afterlife. I just don't get why this entire experiment is necessary.

I don't have an absolute answer in the same way that science does not apply an absolute answer as to why evolutionary processes have given us humans who can perform incredible deeds of self sacrifice for others as well as incredible acts of evil.

Science knows what empathy is. It's not some great mystery.

I am simply suggesting that in a world that is subject to entropy and decay, and an evolutionary process that requires mutations to progress, we have a world where mental illness, cancer and natural disasters can evolve. I am someone who is convinced that God is a god of love for all of His creatures and that God resurrected Jesus vindicating His life, message and death,

And those two sentences contradict each other. A god that creates a world where cancer, mental illness and total death is NOT a loving god.

With that in mind I then can only believe that God has limitations in His relation to this world.

That's obviously wrong. If he created Heaven, he had no need to create the evil experiment also.

Phat writes: Whose attention am I attempting to misdirect?

In your case you are simply trying to misdirect YOU.

Phat writes: You can't simply use the Bible to support your positions while denying me the same privilege.

The issue is HOW you use the Bible. You take pieces parts to try to support your position. I take all of it and simply acknowledge that what is written is what the authors intended to be written.

Phat writes: This whole idea that everybody gets a free pass is a joke.

But I have never claimed that anybody, anybody at all, gets a free pass. It is the Apologists and Conmen who market the idea that there is a free pass.

tangle writes: The bigger question is why has god set the world up in this evil fashion, where every single one of his creation has to suffer in life and finally die whilst hoping that they've passed the obscure test to get into an afterlife. I just don't get why this entire experiment is necessary.

Assuming for a moment that
1) God exists.
2) Other spirits exist.
3) Heaven exists theoretically as a destination for some but not necessarily all humans.

Conclusion: Humans are part of a test. In a way, its like evolution. Survival of the fittest.
The wustion is, fit for what?
Assertion: God is either a simpleton or is evil. Tangle questions why this experiment is necessary.

Possible reasons:

1) Given a limited degree of free will and responsibility, the humans are allowed to freely develop and grow as a species. Reason? To see if one can evolve into a creature worthy of Heaven.

Problem: If God created all that is seen and unseen, why did God create evil? Either directly or non-directly? Reason: To temper and strengthen the human character. If God had simply made a universe full of good things, events, and situations, how would the human-animal be challenged to grow?

Do you see where I am going with this thought experiment, Tangle?

Its quite evident to me that if only good and easy things happened to me in my life, I might not evolve freely chosen decisions regarding my behavior. A starving man takes food far more seriously than a content one.