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Author Topic:   Christianity is Morally Bankrupt
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 13375
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 421 of 590 (867696)
12-01-2019 3:40 PM
Reply to: Message 420 by jar
12-01-2019 1:21 PM


Re: Fundamental Evangelical Christianity is the greatest threat to the world today
US Fundamental Evangelical Christianity is the greatest of that group because it is the only body that actually has the capability to destroy humanity and since they are divorced from reality and sanity believe it is possible to destroy "THEM".
Are you suggesting that they see everyone not as themselves (having a transformed mind)as the enemy? Keep in mind that even among evangelicals, only a minority have transformed minds.
I know this has been true and is true for many individual members. Looking just at how the conservative Nationalists demonize Democrats is proof enough of authoritarian all-or-nothing thinking. But this is not true of all. It is likely true of the majority.

Edited by Thugpreacha, : slowing the argument down


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"We, humans, are engaged in an ongoing war of ideologies. I see it in this microcosm of EvC Forum just as I see it in the governments and attitudes of people throughout the world. Take your pick: Oppression or Seduction .
"~Thugpreacha

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

“As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”
? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith


This message is a reply to:
 Message 420 by jar, posted 12-01-2019 1:21 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 422 by jar, posted 12-01-2019 3:59 PM Thugpreacha has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 31771
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 422 of 590 (867697)
12-01-2019 3:59 PM
Reply to: Message 421 by Thugpreacha
12-01-2019 3:40 PM


Re: Fundamental Evangelical Christianity is the greatest threat to the world today
Phat writes:

Are you suggesting that they see everyone not as themselves (having a transformed mind)as the enemy?

Yes! And nonsense like "having a transformed mind" is the realm of the Carny Side Show; yet another sign of total disconnect from reality.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 421 by Thugpreacha, posted 12-01-2019 3:40 PM Thugpreacha has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 423 by Thugpreacha, posted 12-01-2019 4:24 PM jar has responded

  
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 13375
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 423 of 590 (867700)
12-01-2019 4:24 PM
Reply to: Message 422 by jar
12-01-2019 3:59 PM


The Romans Road--Not A Carny Sideshow
Lets cut to the chase. The inspiration behind the beliefs of many evangelicals historically has been the Romans Road To Salvation, a biblical concept.

quote:
  • The Human Problem (Romans 3:10, Romans 3:23, and Romans 6:23)

    The first part of the Romans Road confirms the state of every human as sinful and the state of God as holy.

    “As it is written: “There is no one righteous, not even one;” (Romans 3:10)
    “For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,” (Romans 3:23)
    After establishing that “all have sinned,” the first half of Romans 6:23 explains the depth of this problem and its consequences.
    “For the wages of sin is death…” (Romans 6:23a)

    However, the second half of the verse hints at the hope sinners have for salvation through Jesus.

    “…but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.” (Romans 6:23b)

  • Humanity’s Hope in Christ (Romans 5:8)

    The second part of the Romans Road further explains the hope we have in the love of God expressed through Christ.

    “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.” (Romans 5:8)

  • The Sinner’s Response (Romans 10:9-10 and Romans 10:13)

    Once we understand our need for a savior and recognize that Jesus Christ is that savior, we can respond by moving along to the third part of the Romans Road, calling out to Jesus.

    “If you declare with your mouth, ‘Jesus is Lord,’ and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved.” (Romans 10:9-10)

    This response is possible for everyone. Romans 10:13 expresses God’s ability to save everyone. (His intention to save everyone is further expressed in John 3:16-17)
    “For, ‘Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.’” (Romans 10:13)

  • The Result of Salvation (Romans 5:1-2 and Romans 8:1)

    The fourth part of the Romans Road mentions two results (peace and justification) after a sinner decides to declare and believe in their heart that Jesus Christ is Lord. Romans 5:1-2 explains that through faith in Jesus Christ, sinners can enjoy peace with God, no longer separated from holy God by sin.

    “Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have gained access by faith into this grace in which we now stand.” (Romans 5:1-2)

    Romans 8:1 rejoices in the result of salvation. Before faith in Christ, all who have sinned were condemned by their sin and destined for death. But now with faith in Christ, “there is no condemnation” (Romans 8:1) and believers are gifted eternal life with God (Romans 6:23).

    “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus,” (Romans 8:1)


  • Unless you consider Paul himself to be a carny sideshow, these scriptures are the basic root of Biblical Christianity.

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ~"We, humans, are engaged in an ongoing war of ideologies. I see it in this microcosm of EvC Forum just as I see it in the governments and attitudes of people throughout the world. Take your pick: Oppression or Seduction .
    "~Thugpreacha

    You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

    “As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”
    ? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 422 by jar, posted 12-01-2019 3:59 PM jar has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 424 by jar, posted 12-01-2019 5:01 PM Thugpreacha has responded

      
    jar
    Member
    Posts: 31771
    From: Texas!!
    Joined: 04-20-2004
    Member Rating: 2.6


    Message 424 of 590 (867704)
    12-01-2019 5:01 PM
    Reply to: Message 423 by Thugpreacha
    12-01-2019 4:24 PM


    Re: The Romans Road--Not A Carny Sideshow
    Quote mining. Palming the Pea. Misdirecting attention.

    Utterly pointless.


    My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 423 by Thugpreacha, posted 12-01-2019 4:24 PM Thugpreacha has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 432 by Thugpreacha, posted 12-02-2019 3:16 AM jar has responded

      
    GDR
    Member
    Posts: 5052
    From: Sidney, BC, Canada
    Joined: 05-22-2005
    Member Rating: 2.8


    Message 425 of 590 (867705)
    12-01-2019 6:30 PM
    Reply to: Message 414 by Percy
    12-01-2019 9:43 AM


    Re: Mainstream Christian Belief
    Percy writes:

    Instead of seeing it as Tangle rejecting the answer, see it as describing why the answer makes no sense to him - or me.

    I think the problem is that you want an answer that is absolute. I don't have an absolute answer in the same way that science does not apply an absolute answer as to why evolutionary processes have given us humans who can perform incredible deeds of self sacrifice for others as well as incredible acts of evil.

    I am simply suggesting that in a world that is subject to entropy and decay, and an evolutionary process that requires mutations to progress, we have a world where mental illness, cancer and natural disasters can evolve. I am someone who is convinced that God is a god of love for all of His creatures and that God resurrected Jesus vindicating His life, message and death,

    With that in mind I then can only believe that God has limitations in His relation to this world. But I also believe that this life is a prelude to the life that you and Tangle complain that we don't have now.

    And again, this is belief it isn't an absolute.


    He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

    Micah 6:8


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 414 by Percy, posted 12-01-2019 9:43 AM Percy has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 426 by AZPaul3, posted 12-01-2019 8:47 PM GDR has not yet responded
     Message 428 by PaulK, posted 12-02-2019 12:19 AM GDR has responded
     Message 433 by Tangle, posted 12-02-2019 3:17 AM GDR has responded
     Message 470 by Percy, posted 12-03-2019 8:40 PM GDR has responded

      
    AZPaul3
    Member
    Posts: 4785
    From: Phoenix
    Joined: 11-06-2006
    Member Rating: 4.9


    (1)
    Message 426 of 590 (867707)
    12-01-2019 8:47 PM
    Reply to: Message 425 by GDR
    12-01-2019 6:30 PM


    Re: Mainstream Christian Belief
    With that in mind I then can only believe that God has limitations in His relation to this world. But I also believe that this life is a prelude to the life that you and Tangle complain that we don't have now.

    So it makes sense to you that your gods are powerful enough they can make a fantasy world, an after-life world, free of the morbid depravity of this actual live-reality world but are too powerless to do so in this real world? Really?

    I think you’re reaching for something that isn’t there. Trying to justify something that has no reality.

    This is the smoke in front of the mirrors.


    Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 425 by GDR, posted 12-01-2019 6:30 PM GDR has not yet responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 427 by Thugpreacha, posted 12-01-2019 10:35 PM AZPaul3 has acknowledged this reply

      
    Thugpreacha
    Member
    Posts: 13375
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 427 of 590 (867708)
    12-01-2019 10:35 PM
    Reply to: Message 426 by AZPaul3
    12-01-2019 8:47 PM


    Re: Mainstream Christian Belief
    So it makes sense to you that your gods are powerful enough they can make a fantasy world, an after-life world, free of the morbid depravity of this actual live-reality world but are too powerless to do so in this real world? Really?
    we still have to collectively learn thay we cant evolve out of it. I dont know why people have a problem with God qiving us a way out of our animal selves. I also think it incredulous that jar and ringo think a good God would let everyone be the way they are now.

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ~"We, humans, are engaged in an ongoing war of ideologies. I see it in this microcosm of EvC Forum just as I see it in the governments and attitudes of people throughout the world. Take your pick: Oppression or Seduction .
    "~Thugpreacha

    You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

    “As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”
    ? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 426 by AZPaul3, posted 12-01-2019 8:47 PM AZPaul3 has acknowledged this reply

    Replies to this message:
     Message 429 by PaulK, posted 12-02-2019 12:23 AM Thugpreacha has acknowledged this reply
     Message 440 by ringo, posted 12-02-2019 11:00 AM Thugpreacha has responded

      
    PaulK
    Member
    Posts: 15644
    Joined: 01-10-2003
    Member Rating: 2.8


    Message 428 of 590 (867709)
    12-02-2019 12:19 AM
    Reply to: Message 425 by GDR
    12-01-2019 6:30 PM


    Re: Mainstream Christian Belief
    quote:
    I am simply suggesting that in a world that is subject to entropy and decay, and an evolutionary process that requires mutations to progress, we have a world where mental illness, cancer and natural disasters can evolve.

    Which is less than half an answer. The main part would be to explain why God would create such a world.

    quote:
    With that in mind I then can only believe that God has limitations in His relation to this world.

    Since this world is - supposedly - entirely created by God, any limits would be either fundamental or self-inflicted.


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 425 by GDR, posted 12-01-2019 6:30 PM GDR has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 430 by GDR, posted 12-02-2019 2:15 AM PaulK has responded

      
    PaulK
    Member
    Posts: 15644
    Joined: 01-10-2003
    Member Rating: 2.8


    Message 429 of 590 (867710)
    12-02-2019 12:23 AM
    Reply to: Message 427 by Thugpreacha
    12-01-2019 10:35 PM


    Re: Mainstream Christian Belief
    quote:
    I dont know why people have a problem with God qiving us a way out of our animal selves.

    That is not the issue. The issue is why we have a problem with our ‘animal selves” in the first place. Can’t God do better ? And if he can’t how could he fix it?

    quote:
    I also think it incredulous that jar and ringo think a good God would let everyone be the way they are now

    Obviously things are the way they are now, and if there is a God he has let it be that way.


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 427 by Thugpreacha, posted 12-01-2019 10:35 PM Thugpreacha has acknowledged this reply

      
    GDR
    Member
    Posts: 5052
    From: Sidney, BC, Canada
    Joined: 05-22-2005
    Member Rating: 2.8


    Message 430 of 590 (867712)
    12-02-2019 2:15 AM
    Reply to: Message 428 by PaulK
    12-02-2019 12:19 AM


    Re: Mainstream Christian Belief
    PaulK writes:

    Which is less than half an answer. The main part would be to explain why God would create such a world.

    Would you rather there was nothing?

    PaulK writes:

    Since this world is - supposedly - entirely created by God, any limits would be either fundamental or self-inflicted.

    I'd go with fundamental.

    He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

    Micah 6:8


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 428 by PaulK, posted 12-02-2019 12:19 AM PaulK has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 431 by PaulK, posted 12-02-2019 2:46 AM GDR has not yet responded

      
    PaulK
    Member
    Posts: 15644
    Joined: 01-10-2003
    Member Rating: 2.8


    Message 431 of 590 (867713)
    12-02-2019 2:46 AM
    Reply to: Message 430 by GDR
    12-02-2019 2:15 AM


    Re: Mainstream Christian Belief
    quote:
    Would you rather there was nothing?

    By which you mean “God can’t do any better”

    quote:
    I'd go with fundamental.

    Then you can’t expect the afterlife to be any better.


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 430 by GDR, posted 12-02-2019 2:15 AM GDR has not yet responded

      
    Thugpreacha
    Member
    Posts: 13375
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 432 of 590 (867715)
    12-02-2019 3:16 AM
    Reply to: Message 424 by jar
    12-01-2019 5:01 PM


    Re: The Romans Road--Not A Carny Sideshow
    Again with the con-man reference. Whose attention am I attempting to misdirect? In my mind, I am merely supporting a position. You can't simply use the Bible to support your positions while denying me the same privilege.

    In addition, this whole conman reference that you bring up ad nauseum here at EvC in regards to Evangelical Fundamentalist Christianity is an ongoing attempt to vilify me and "misdirect" the attention back to your argument. Must you bring that up every time I make a point? Finally, why do you get to support what the Bible says and I don't? Why is yours a plain reading while mine is an "attempt to palm the pea"?? I've no need to palm anything. You claim to be a believer but when we boil it all down, you only believe in what YOU can do and say and understand. You may have read the Bible, but you see no living God within its pages. The facts remain from Romans. None are righteous. All have sinned. Salvation is for everybody who is willing to accept the terms. This whole idea that everybody gets a free pass is a joke.


    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ~"We, humans, are engaged in an ongoing war of ideologies. I see it in this microcosm of EvC Forum just as I see it in the governments and attitudes of people throughout the world. Take your pick: Oppression or Seduction .
    "~Thugpreacha

    You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

    “As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”
    ? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 424 by jar, posted 12-01-2019 5:01 PM jar has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 434 by jar, posted 12-02-2019 7:14 AM Thugpreacha has responded

      
    Tangle
    Member
    Posts: 7202
    From: UK
    Joined: 10-07-2011
    Member Rating: 3.3


    Message 433 of 590 (867716)
    12-02-2019 3:17 AM
    Reply to: Message 425 by GDR
    12-01-2019 6:30 PM


    Re: Mainstream Christian Belief
    GDR writes:

    I think the problem is that you want an answer that is absolute.

    I don't want an absolute answer, I want a general response that makes some logical sense. I can't make any sense of your answer.

    The world as it is contradicts your belief in a loving god.

    Just as a single, simple point, you believe that this 'still small voice of god' is responsible for freewill and conscience - why people do good things that might be against their own interests. Yet you accept that millions of people are deprived of this voice. Why? How is that the action of a loving god? How does that fit with free will and conscience?

    But that's just a point of detail. The bigger question is why has god set the world up in this evil fashion, where every single one of his creation has to suffer in life and finally die whilst hoping that they've passed the obscure test to get into an afterlife. I just don't get why this entire experiment is necessary.

    I don't have an absolute answer in the same way that science does not apply an absolute answer as to why evolutionary processes have given us humans who can perform incredible deeds of self sacrifice for others as well as incredible acts of evil.

    Science knows what empathy is. It's not some great mystery.

    I am simply suggesting that in a world that is subject to entropy and decay, and an evolutionary process that requires mutations to progress, we have a world where mental illness, cancer and natural disasters can evolve. I am someone who is convinced that God is a god of love for all of His creatures and that God resurrected Jesus vindicating His life, message and death,

    And those two sentences contradict each other. A god that creates a world where cancer, mental illness and total death is NOT a loving god.

    With that in mind I then can only believe that God has limitations in His relation to this world.

    That's obviously wrong. If he created Heaven, he had no need to create the evil experiment also.


    Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

    "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

    "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
    Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
    - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 425 by GDR, posted 12-01-2019 6:30 PM GDR has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 435 by Thugpreacha, posted 12-02-2019 7:27 AM Tangle has responded
     Message 443 by GDR, posted 12-02-2019 5:23 PM Tangle has responded

      
    jar
    Member
    Posts: 31771
    From: Texas!!
    Joined: 04-20-2004
    Member Rating: 2.6


    Message 434 of 590 (867717)
    12-02-2019 7:14 AM
    Reply to: Message 432 by Thugpreacha
    12-02-2019 3:16 AM


    Re: The Romans Road--Not A Carny Sideshow
    Phat writes:

    Whose attention am I attempting to misdirect?

    In your case you are simply trying to misdirect YOU.

    Phat writes:

    You can't simply use the Bible to support your positions while denying me the same privilege.

    The issue is HOW you use the Bible. You take pieces parts to try to support your position. I take all of it and simply acknowledge that what is written is what the authors intended to be written.

    Phat writes:

    This whole idea that everybody gets a free pass is a joke.

    But I have never claimed that anybody, anybody at all, gets a free pass. It is the Apologists and Conmen who market the idea that there is a free pass.


    My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 432 by Thugpreacha, posted 12-02-2019 3:16 AM Thugpreacha has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 436 by Thugpreacha, posted 12-02-2019 7:39 AM jar has responded

      
    Thugpreacha
    Member
    Posts: 13375
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 435 of 590 (867718)
    12-02-2019 7:27 AM
    Reply to: Message 433 by Tangle
    12-02-2019 3:17 AM


    Pondering Gods Plan and Reasoning Capacity
    tangle writes:

    The bigger question is why has god set the world up in this evil fashion, where every single one of his creation has to suffer in life and finally die whilst hoping that they've passed the obscure test to get into an afterlife. I just don't get why this entire experiment is necessary.

    Assuming for a moment that
    1) God exists.
    2) Other spirits exist.
    3) Heaven exists theoretically as a destination for some but not necessarily all humans.

    Conclusion: Humans are part of a test. In a way, its like evolution. Survival of the fittest.
    The wustion is, fit for what?
    Assertion: God is either a simpleton or is evil. Tangle questions why this experiment is necessary.

    Possible reasons:

    1) Given a limited degree of free will and responsibility, the humans are allowed to freely develop and grow as a species. Reason? To see if one can evolve into a creature worthy of Heaven.

    Problem: If God created all that is seen and unseen, why did God create evil? Either directly or non-directly? Reason: To temper and strengthen the human character. If God had simply made a universe full of good things, events, and situations, how would the human-animal be challenged to grow?

    Do you see where I am going with this thought experiment, Tangle?

    Its quite evident to me that if only good and easy things happened to me in my life, I might not evolve freely chosen decisions regarding my behavior. A starving man takes food far more seriously than a content one.


    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ~"We, humans, are engaged in an ongoing war of ideologies. I see it in this microcosm of EvC Forum just as I see it in the governments and attitudes of people throughout the world. Take your pick: Oppression or Seduction .
    "~Thugpreacha

    You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

    “As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”
    ? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 433 by Tangle, posted 12-02-2019 3:17 AM Tangle has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 438 by Tangle, posted 12-02-2019 8:32 AM Thugpreacha has not yet responded

      
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