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Author Topic:   Christianity is Morally Bankrupt
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 13375
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 451 of 590 (867791)
12-03-2019 9:58 AM
Reply to: Message 450 by Tangle
12-03-2019 6:09 AM


Re: Mainstream Christian Belief
You are failing at trying to show me anything. I know my God. And my God does not torture anyone or anything. Heck, he even may give Satan an opportunity to repent at some point. You can't limit my God to the character in a book and you can't indict Him. You stop spinning, Tangle. We are done here. The audacity of atheists trying to define and judge a character in a book! You won't trap a believer there. We simply see God as larger than what traps the atheists, skeptics, and self-proclaimed Bible teachers (who think the Holy Spirit was a mere political creation) set to encourage doubt. And for clarity, let me remind the audience once more what CS Lewis said in Mere Christianity: (This is for anyone who believes we should throw God away)
CSLewis writes:

Nothing that you have not given away will ever be really yours. Nothing in you that has not died will ever be raised from the dead. Look for yourself, and you will find in the long run only hatred, loneliness, despair, rage, ruin, and decay. But look for Christ and you will find Him, and with Him, everything else thrown in.

Lewis understood literature and fantasy. He also was a believer who stuck to his beliefs. He didn't die an alcoholic like Napoleon Hill, a carny sideshow that failed. He is but one example of many Christians who found out that God was real and was larger than the book itself. The rest of you were too busy asking questions and trying to quantify, measure, and verify scientifically what you felt. You ended up throwing away the present and keeping the box.

Edited by Thugpreacha, : No reason given.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"We, humans, are engaged in an ongoing war of ideologies. I see it in this microcosm of EvC Forum just as I see it in the governments and attitudes of people throughout the world. Take your pick: Oppression or Seduction .
"~Thugpreacha

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

“As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”
? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith


This message is a reply to:
 Message 450 by Tangle, posted 12-03-2019 6:09 AM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 452 by Tangle, posted 12-03-2019 10:30 AM Thugpreacha has acknowledged this reply
 Message 455 by PaulK, posted 12-03-2019 11:01 AM Thugpreacha has acknowledged this reply

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 7202
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.3


Message 452 of 590 (867793)
12-03-2019 10:30 AM
Reply to: Message 451 by Thugpreacha
12-03-2019 9:58 AM


Re: Mainstream Christian Belief
Phat writes:

You are failing at trying to show me anything.

Tell me about it...

I know my God. And my God does not torture anyone or anything.

Your god made everything did he not? If so he gave my brother-in-law pancreatic cancer which is excruciatingly painful and finally killed him. He's going to kill you too, you'd better hope that he's not in a bad mood that day.

So your god created a world where the trillions of his creation will suffer and die. And for no reason whatsoever, except he willed it so.

Stuff C.S.Lewis, why won't you address the question? Are you frightened of it? Or do you really not understand it?

If your god made this world, then he's responsible for what happens on it. What he's done is run an experiment, a game, where everyone has to play to his rules and the winners get to live in a perfect world.

But he's stacked the deck. He's given lots of people massive advantages and others massive disadvantages. He's not told most of them about the rules or even the game and some he deliberately deprives of the ability to play it all. But he makes them all suffer anyway and finally kills them all.

And for what? What is the game for? Apparently he knows the winners before the game starts and he could quite simply create people to populate his paradise without torturing trillions of people so that few can get there.

I can't make any sense of the process at all.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 451 by Thugpreacha, posted 12-03-2019 9:58 AM Thugpreacha has acknowledged this reply

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 17666
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 453 of 590 (867794)
12-03-2019 10:44 AM
Reply to: Message 444 by GDR
12-02-2019 5:43 PM


Re: Mainstream Christian Belief
GDR writes:

The working of the brain can be altered by chemicals but that doesn't require an altering of the mind.


I'm saying that's what the evidence shows. There is no evidence that the mind is separate from the brain.

GDR writes:

The evidence you offer though is theoretical...


You're misusing either the term "evidence" or the term "theoretical", or both. All theories use the same evidence.

GDR writes:

... and you choose the theory that is consistent with your desired outcome.


Not at all. I only know of one theory - you have none. And I have no "desired outcome". I'm only following the evidence.

GDR writes:

It still wouldn't address the iissue of why it exists at all...


"Why" anything exists is because it offers an evolutionary survival benefit.

GDR writes:

... whthere it now its root cause is from intelligence or mindlessness.


Scientifically, we can not postulate an unevidenced intelligence. We can not say that something "must have" originated from an unevidenced intelligence.

And the alternative is not "mindlessness"; it's the laws of physics.

GDR writes:

It seems to me that if you have to resort to ridicule to make your point, then maybe your point isn't very strong.


The ridicule is just a bonus. It isn't intended or needed to reinforce the point.

"If you can keep your head when all about you
Are losing theirs and blaming it on you...."
-- Rudyard Kipling

This message is a reply to:
 Message 444 by GDR, posted 12-02-2019 5:43 PM GDR has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 457 by GDR, posted 12-03-2019 12:12 PM ringo has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 17666
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 454 of 590 (867795)
12-03-2019 10:55 AM
Reply to: Message 446 by Thugpreacha
12-02-2019 6:05 PM


Re: Mainstream Christian Belief
Phat writes:

Lewis explains the transformation better than I could.


If Lewis was a member of EvC, I might read his posts. As it is, I'm not going to read a wall of text that's attributed to him.

If you understand what he said, put it in your own words.

Phat writes:

ringo writes:

And you've also never been able to explain why Christians are no different from non-Christians.


The difference is subtle. We are works in progress. Some things became clear from Day One, while other things take time to let go of.

The same applies to non-Christians - so no difference.

Phat writes:

And I might add that unlike jars assertion, Christians are not simply Christians because they say they are. They are Christians because Christ came into them and they died to self.


But that's just bullshit. They didn't "die to self" any more or less than non-Christians do.

Phat writes:

It is a slow process, for we don't all die at once. Many parts of our personality are hard to let go of.


The same for non-Christians - so no difference.

And by the way, Christianity can be hard to let go of too. And when you do, it can be a tremendous weight off your shoulders - so no difference.

Phat writes:

Lewis also explains this.


Explain it yourself.

Phat writes:

Yes, ringo---God does not simply accept us as we are in current attitude. No drunks allowed at this gathering.


More bullshit.

"If you can keep your head when all about you
Are losing theirs and blaming it on you...."
-- Rudyard Kipling

This message is a reply to:
 Message 446 by Thugpreacha, posted 12-02-2019 6:05 PM Thugpreacha has acknowledged this reply

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 15644
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 455 of 590 (867796)
12-03-2019 11:01 AM
Reply to: Message 451 by Thugpreacha
12-03-2019 9:58 AM


Re: Mainstream Christian Belief
quote:
And for clarity, let me remind the audience once more what CS Lewis said in Mere Christianity

For people here I’ll sum it up as “if you’re not a Christian you’ll end up like Faith”. I don’t think that’s true.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 451 by Thugpreacha, posted 12-03-2019 9:58 AM Thugpreacha has acknowledged this reply

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 5052
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 456 of 590 (867797)
12-03-2019 11:04 AM
Reply to: Message 445 by Tangle
12-02-2019 5:48 PM


Re: Mainstream Christian Belief
Tangle writes:

And your favourite 'still small voice' is still unanswered. You'll now go away and forget about it and pretend that it doesn't matter that your god has removed his voice from millions of people.

Of course it matters but thankfully there are many people in this world doing what they can to alleviate the problem. This IMHO is what God calls us to as humans. You can complain all you want that God didn't do a good enough job in your estimation so you reject Him, but He has also done a pretty good job in giving us the talents and skills to alleviate much of the suffering from disease and tragedy.

It does matter and I won't forget about it, but hopefully when given the opportunity I will at least try to help those that suffer from the various faults that you talk about.

So whether we are Christian, Buddhist or atheist we all have to deal with the issue that this world isn't always the way we would like it to be. So yes, my answers are simply my speculations about possible answers. I don't present them as hard and fast truths. I do suggest though that empathy and the desire to act on that empathy is an actual aspect of our world. You and others can speculate that this can evolve from mindlessness, and just as you can't accept that a good god could create this world I don't accept that the joy in this world can come from mindlessness.

Incidentally, although it may be irrelevant, when I volunteer at things in the community I find that pretty much everyone else that is volunteering is also involved with their churches. The development of our system of hospitals was primarily the work of Christians. In your country it was Wilberforce the Christian who gave his life to the cause of abolishing slavery. Just maybe God is working through mankind to make this world the way you think it should be.


He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 445 by Tangle, posted 12-02-2019 5:48 PM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 460 by Tangle, posted 12-03-2019 1:22 PM GDR has not yet responded

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 5052
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 457 of 590 (867799)
12-03-2019 12:12 PM
Reply to: Message 453 by ringo
12-03-2019 10:44 AM


Re: Mainstream Christian Belief
ringo writes:

I'm saying that's what the evidence shows. There is no evidence that the mind is separate from the brain.

Well there is and I linked it in my last post.
ringo writes:

"Why" anything exists is because it offers an evolutionary survival benefit.

....but why does evolution or the concept of evolutionary survival exist at all?

ringo writes:

Scientifically, we can not postulate an unevidenced intelligence. We can not say that something "must have" originated from an unevidenced intelligence.

Of course my beliefs aren't scientific. Whether we contend that that we are the result of unevidenced intelligence or not is a matter of non-scientific belief.
ringo writes:

And the alternative is not "mindlessness"; it's the laws of physics.

Sure, but is the lawmaker intelligent or not is the question.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 453 by ringo, posted 12-03-2019 10:44 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 458 by ringo, posted 12-03-2019 12:24 PM GDR has not yet responded
 Message 459 by AZPaul3, posted 12-03-2019 12:47 PM GDR has not yet responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 17666
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 458 of 590 (867800)
12-03-2019 12:24 PM
Reply to: Message 457 by GDR
12-03-2019 12:12 PM


Re: Mainstream Christian Belief
GDR writes:

ringo writes:

There is no evidence that the mind is separate from the brain.


Well there is and I linked it in my last post.

That's just one person's opinion. It doesn't count as evidence.

GDR writes:

....but why does evolution or the concept of evolutionary survival exist at all?


It's an emergent property of matter.

GDR writes:

Whether we contend that that we are the result of unevidenced intelligence or not is a matter of non-scientific belief.


No. Sticking with the science is not a non-scientific belief.

GDR writes:

ringo writes:

And the alternative is not "mindlessness"; it's the laws of physics.


Sure, but is the lawmaker intelligent or not is the question.

You're equivocating judicial laws with laws of nature. There's no reason to think the laws of nature require a "lawmaker".

"If you can keep your head when all about you
Are losing theirs and blaming it on you...."
-- Rudyard Kipling

This message is a reply to:
 Message 457 by GDR, posted 12-03-2019 12:12 PM GDR has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 472 by Thugpreacha, posted 12-04-2019 3:58 PM ringo has responded

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 4785
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 459 of 590 (867802)
12-03-2019 12:47 PM
Reply to: Message 457 by GDR
12-03-2019 12:12 PM


Re: Mainstream Christian Belief
ringo writes:
I'm saying that's what the evidence shows. There is no evidence that the mind is separate from the brain.

Well there is and I linked it in my last post.

No there isn't. Your own source said so.

quote:
Obviously, despite his impressive body of research into this subject, there is no current way to empirically establish the validity of Fenwick’s cosmic consciousness hypothesis. Ultimately, it aligns more with faith than science. Thus it seems the answer to the question in this post’s title is “No.” There is no empirically established explanatory framework for understanding how consciousness can exist independently and outside of the brain.

Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 457 by GDR, posted 12-03-2019 12:12 PM GDR has not yet responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 7202
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.3


Message 460 of 590 (867805)
12-03-2019 1:22 PM
Reply to: Message 456 by GDR
12-03-2019 11:04 AM


Re: Mainstream Christian Belief
All of this...

GDR writes:

Of course it matters but thankfully there are many people in this world doing what they can to alleviate the problem. This IMHO is what God calls us to as humans. You can complain all you want that God didn't do a good enough job in your estimation so you reject Him, but He has also done a pretty good job in giving us the talents and skills to alleviate much of the suffering from disease and tragedy.
It does matter and I won't forget about it, but hopefully when given the opportunity I will at least try to help those that suffer from the various faults that you talk about.

So whether we are Christian, Buddhist or atheist we all have to deal with the issue that this world isn't always the way we would like it to be. So yes, my answers are simply my speculations about possible answers. I don't present them as hard and fast truths. I do suggest though that empathy and the desire to act on that empathy is an actual aspect of our world. You and others can speculate that this can evolve from mindlessness, and just as you can't accept that a good god could create this world I don't accept that the joy in this world can come from mindlessness.

Incidentally, although it may be irrelevant, when I volunteer at things in the community I find that pretty much everyone else that is volunteering is also involved with their churches. The development of our system of hospitals was primarily the work of Christians. In your country it was Wilberforce the Christian who gave his life to the cause of abolishing slavery. Just maybe God is working through mankind to make this world the way you think it should be.

... is irrelevant.

Like Phat, you have not engaged with the core question. All you're doing is saying that this is the way God made it is so... but what I'm asking you is why your god made it the way it is.

He's created an experiment which results in the suffering and death of all of his creation. Trillions of lifeforms. All so that some get to go to the next life? Why? It's totally unnecessary and it's evil. How can that god match up to the loving god you believe in?


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 456 by GDR, posted 12-03-2019 11:04 AM GDR has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 461 by Faith, posted 12-03-2019 2:21 PM Tangle has responded
 Message 465 by Thugpreacha, posted 12-03-2019 2:48 PM Tangle has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 33886
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 461 of 590 (867807)
12-03-2019 2:21 PM
Reply to: Message 460 by Tangle
12-03-2019 1:22 PM


The purpose of it all
Maybe I can answer your question from my point of view, which is of course different from GDR's.

[qs]...but what I'm asking you is why your god made it the way it is.

He's created an experiment which results in the suffering and death of all of his creation. Trillions of lifeforms. All so that some get to go to the next life? Why? It's totally unnecessary and it's evil. How can that god match up to the loving god you believe in?

what I'm asking you is why your god made it the way it is.

God made it the way it is in order to play out the war between good and evil enacted by us human beings, his own favorte creatures. He made it so that we will be the agents of a tremendous good in the end that far surpasses the passive goodness in Eden. He could have left us in that state of passive goodness but then we wouldn't learn anything and we wouldn't have the heroic part he designed us for. Suffering is the result of opposing God. It's not as if we don't have the means to avoid it. All we have to do is recognize Him, love and obey Him. It's not a great task beyond our abilities, it is only our stubborn evil wills that keep us from it. His Bible doesn't tell us the ultimate outcome but it does hint at it: in the power of God we defeat the devil and his hordes and take their place in ruling over a new universe. As Paul said, paraphrasing: our light affliction is nothing compared to the glories that await us. Believers that is. And nothing is stopping you from joining us.

It isn't an experiment, it's a great plan.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 460 by Tangle, posted 12-03-2019 1:22 PM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 462 by Faith, posted 12-03-2019 2:23 PM Faith has not yet responded
 Message 463 by Tangle, posted 12-03-2019 2:31 PM Faith has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 33886
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 462 of 590 (867808)
12-03-2019 2:23 PM
Reply to: Message 461 by Faith
12-03-2019 2:21 PM


Re: The purpose of it all
Sorry about the mess in the previous post, but I'm not allowed to edit so I can't correct it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 461 by Faith, posted 12-03-2019 2:21 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 7202
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.3


Message 463 of 590 (867809)
12-03-2019 2:31 PM
Reply to: Message 461 by Faith
12-03-2019 2:21 PM


Re: The purpose of it all
Faith writes:

God made it the way it is in order to play out the war between good and evil enacted by us human beings, his own favorte creatures.

He thinks he's in a Greek tragedy?

He made it so that we will be the agents of a tremendous good in the end that far surpasses the passive goodness in Eden.

But, but, but, but... why do it that way at all? He is the creator of everything - including evil. Why create evil at all?

The rest of what you say is irrelevant.

It isn't an experiment, it's a great plan.

The god that you tell us you believe in does not need a bloody plan. If he wishes it, it becomes so.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 461 by Faith, posted 12-03-2019 2:21 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 464 by Faith, posted 12-03-2019 2:42 PM Tangle has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 33886
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


(1)
Message 464 of 590 (867810)
12-03-2019 2:42 PM
Reply to: Message 463 by Tangle
12-03-2019 2:31 PM


Re: The purpose of it all
I'm sure the Greek tragedy is an intuition of the divine war.

I thought I explained: He could have left us in the passive state of endless goodness without evil, but evil is necessary so that good is seen as good and in the end a far greater good than that in the original creation. This involves suffering, but we are told He empathizes with our sufferings. As I quoted Paul, the sufferings will be seen as nothing in the end when we are in a position to appreciate the purpose of it all. Yet as he also says somewhere else , our sufferings are indeed painful, but the end result of righteousness is worth it. We aren't in a position to see it now, but we embrace it by faith. Believers do anyway.

I don't think you are appreciating the actual options. You focus on the suffering which is indeed often horrendous, but if you really consider what it means you wouldn't like the idea of living in a good world that didn't involve any conflict at all, nothing to think about, no problems to solve, no evil to vanguish.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 463 by Tangle, posted 12-03-2019 2:31 PM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 466 by Thugpreacha, posted 12-03-2019 2:57 PM Faith has responded
 Message 468 by Tangle, posted 12-03-2019 3:58 PM Faith has responded

  
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 13375
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 465 of 590 (867811)
12-03-2019 2:48 PM
Reply to: Message 460 by Tangle
12-03-2019 1:22 PM


Untangling Why
To sum up Tangles assertion:
tangle writes:

All you're doing is saying that this is the way God made it is so... but what I'm asking you is why your god made it the way it is.(...)He's created an experiment that results in the suffering and death of all of his creation.

Yes. death is a part of this life. We see it every Fall and Spring. Are you asking why God allows death? Or are you asking why suffering is also part of the process?

It's totally unnecessary and it's evil. How can that god match up to the loving god you believe in?
Is it specifically evil in that only some get to go(or to evolve to that level)? Or is it evil that they suffer during the process.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"We, humans, are engaged in an ongoing war of ideologies. I see it in this microcosm of EvC Forum just as I see it in the governments and attitudes of people throughout the world. Take your pick: Oppression or Seduction .
"~Thugpreacha

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

“As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”
? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith


This message is a reply to:
 Message 460 by Tangle, posted 12-03-2019 1:22 PM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 469 by Tangle, posted 12-03-2019 4:15 PM Thugpreacha has responded

  
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