Christianity is Morally Bankrupt

What's the difference between creating evil and creating the possibility of evil? If I give a four-year-old a loaded pistol, it's possible that evil will ensue but it's also possible that it won't. If evil does ensue, who's responsible? Obviously the one who made it possible.The rest of that quote is just word-salad gibberish.

So in Heaven humans will not be free.You pays your nickle and you takes your chances.The problem Phat is that what you describe as "Mainstream Christianity" is nothing but an accumulation of contradictions and absurdities.

I never said humans won't still have free will in heaven. Satan certainly did...why wouldn't any other Being? The difference between Adam & WEve is that they were innocent when they chose knowledge. The ones who end up in Heaven will have free will and full knowledge of the differences between ultimate good and ultimate evil. I don't know what Satan was thinking, but even he was foreknown to fall. The problem with logic, reason, and reality is that you keep your nickel, invest in humanity, and still take your chances. I suppose that nobody really *knows* the outcome in an absolute sense. We ar all free to either be religious, attend church, or simply roll up our sleeves and help the neighbor take out her trash and reach things high on the shelf. GOD, if GOD exists watches everything.

No, Phat, I believe Christian theology is clear that we will no long have the ability to sin when we are in heaven, we will have lost that kind of free will. I'm not sure what form it will take, maybe just that we'll have so much greater love for God and so much better understand we will just never want to sin, but in any case we will never sin and I for one look forward to that, becauseto my mind it is freedom FROM sin and evil. But unlike Adam and Eve I belive we will have the knowledge of good and evil and memory of the sin and evil done on Earth while we were here.This is just my own understanding but now I'm going to go look it up.

Because simply creating evil makes God "complete" as jar asserts. I believe that God is good. Not good and evil. And once humans were given the knowledge of how to make pistols, we made a bunch of them. The Tree of knowledge is a mixed bag. We grew up and made many things. Some good and some bad. Would we have been better off choosing the other tree instead? It depends on how mature and responsible one is. If an adult uses a pistol incorrectly, they cant simply sue Samuel Colt. Or even the yahoo who invented bump stocks. Evil was made possible only to give us a full choice. As a species, we are growing up and learning how to be responsible. The jury is still out as to whether we can do it fully without Jesus needing to come back bodily. The other guy certainly continues to market his agenda.

Another question I have is why God binds Satan for 1000 years and then lets him loose again? Look that one up too.

I didn't ask the question quite right so I'll have to ask it again but I did get this answer which seems to answer my question too, from Sproul's Ligonier Ministries.That is about our justification and he goes on to say that we will be judged by how we lived our lives here too, apparently mostly in terms of what kind of reward we will get rather than punishment. Those with the best record of good deeds will get a higher reward and those without good deeds I guess will get no reward at all but we won't be banished from heaven.I still want to get a more direct answer to my question but I think the implication of our being clothed in Christ's righteousness is that we will never sin because He never sinned. HOWEVER, we are also told in scripture that He was "tempted even as we are tempted," so it's not as if we will be without the knowledge of sin, we will simply have Christ's power to reject it.Here's
a more direct answer to my question:

Right so I can carry on sinning in heaven can I?

I just wore myself out trying to get the above post straightened out since I kept getting the codes in the wrong place. I don't understand all those parts of Revelation either but you could google it you know.

There is a difference between the KNOWLEDGE of good and evil, which of course God has, and Adam and Eve's disobedience which brought about that knowledge in their case. They got the knowleddge but they also got the sin and its suffering.

Phat, the kind of freewill described in the Genesis tale is like the kind of freewill that you have with choosing not to breathe. Technically you have the choice to inhale or hold your breath, do you not? Technicalities aside, do you really have choice in such an instance? This is the kind of "freewill" that we're up against -- its a sham; an illusion of choice.Judas was predestined to betray Jesus... he didn't have a choice as he was selected to play a vital role (the antagonist) in the story. Same with the Pharaoh. If you don't believe me, read the scriptures for yourselves. The bible is very clear in stating that God deliberately and intentionally hardened the Pharaoh's heart with the express purpose of denying him will. How about the killing of every firstborn male child? Did they have a choice or were they dealt a shit hand for having been born:1. First
2. MaleAnd lets use you as an example. Some people are dealt shit hands in life, would you agree? I don't have this compulsion to gamble as you have shared that you have wrestled with. You and I both have the choice not to gamble. The difference is that I don't give it any thought because it is not a temptation of mine. I know that statistically speaking the House always wins, so why throw money away in the hopes that I might get a tiny bit more? Not worth the risk to me. But your choice to abstain from the compulsion is a lot harder than mine.Now, do you agree that we both have the exact same choice to either say yes or no to the vice? Edited by Hyroglyphx, : No reason given.

And see the post right below your post.Phat, either Heaven will have sin as well as not sinning or the folk in heaven will have no freedom of choice.Sorry but what you market as "Mainstream Christianity" is simply silly.

I will go with the idea that the story is metaphorical. It is an explanation of why people die. Whether we initially could have been eternal is a moot point, as we never attained that level. The execution mentioned is the actual action (disobedience) that caused the sentence(death) to become real. We executed ourselves in effect (and metaphorically). This whole idea of the knowledge of right and wrong being a great gift assumes that more value should be placed on learning than on obedience. In today's world, with no physical God present, learning is indeed preferable to obedience. The 60's bumper sticker, Question Authority comes to mind. jar and ringo take it a step farther and question God at every turn. Perhaps a case can hypothetically be made that the god characters in the book are human inventions, but this does not diminish the possibility of a perfect, completely knowledgeable Creator of all seen and unseen existing...long before any humans appeared or any books were written. All throughout human history we have sought to understand God and to connect with an actual living and active One rather than some statue or temple or character in a book. Thus, on the one hand, it is a good exercise in human reasoning to interact with god characters which we ourselves describe. I do it all the time. At the same time, however, I believe in an actual GOD knowable through the character of Jesus Christ and not simply limited to the scrolls from one 66 part book.When I hypothesize about the actual character of this Deity whom I believe in, I am unafraid to question myself, but my capacity to question the Deity is limited to prayer and reverence. I don't insult such a belief by dragging the character through the mud.If one believes that God is in charge, living and active and that He has allowed an adversary to also exist in this realm and test humans, then one uses the books to fit that scenario. (and one understands the book through being born again)If one is a skeptic, atheist, or secular critic interested only in human nature and literary prose, one can more easily explain away the god character and build their faith in human wisdom, reasoning, and habit. This is in large part why we often disagree and why some of you think that apologists are dishonest. I will concede, however, that dishonesty itself is a human trait. I chalk it up to the allowance of free will and sin, but others can describe it through biological evolution.

Agreed. Again, the fact that there was a War in Heaven would seem to prove that point. And there are many stories and many explanations given by human reasoning and literature. I can speculate and make up scenarios all day. For example, Revelation 20:1-12. People may ask what this story is supposed to teach. I see it as God using Satan as a tool to tempt(temper) humanity in order to help sift the wheat from the chaff. In Lesson One we were given the knowledge of good and evil, while we were innocent. Whoever passes that test gets a thousand-year free pass to learn lesson 2. Then, Satan is released to be allowed to tempt the Saints (by that time) again, similar to how he was allowed to sway 1/3 of the angels to join him. We become the decisions we make. You have a point at teaching responsibility vs get-out-of-hell-free theology. Personally, I think both are needed. We are judged by what we do, but we are forgiven based on what we confess.

Yes, they were foreknown. Evil already existed. God may have hardened Pharoahs heart by withdrawing His grace. Pharoah willfully chose to be stubborn due to pride, or greed, or some other aspect of evil that already existed. Evil exists as a tempering agent. It strengthens those who resist it, much as lifting weights allows muscles to strengthen through resisting the weight. Judas was foreknown, but technically had a choice. God would have simply then needed another Judas to complete the plan. If Henry Ford had never invented the Model A, someone else would have eventually. We all are given different temptations and weaknesses. Perhaps so we have the opportunity to learn from the trials of others. This life is tough. Its not some paradise nor would it ever be one even if God did not exist and humans were building the best world they possibly could.The issue I am defending is the idea that God if God exists, has a definite plan which tests different people differently. If they have a problem being denied true free will, perhaps they need to learn the lesson that satan learned. One cannot freely choose a world without God if God exists. They will face the music one way or another. No two people have the exact same set of challenges nor opportunities. It appears that the way this is all set up, life is not fair.The issue is not whether we have full free will. The issue is what we do with the choices we are given.