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Author Topic:   Christianity is Morally Bankrupt
Percy
Member
Posts: 19286
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 3.0


(1)
Message 571 of 652 (868215)
12-08-2019 9:16 PM
Reply to: Message 556 by GDR
12-07-2019 7:44 PM


Re: Our conscience
GDR writes:

Percy writes:

What studying nature tells us, that's what I think.

Surely you can see beyond that.

How would you suggest I, or anyone, see beyond what we can see, which is limited to what exists in nature.

That would be like studying an automobile assembly line and claiming that as the only cause for a car coming out the other end. An automobile assembly line has all the hallmarks of existing because of a pre-existing intelligence as does evolution IMHO.

This is just the old Paley analogy where you've substituted an automobile assembly line for the watch.

GDR writes:

Also what is infinite power mean anyway.

Percy writes:

Got me, but many religions assign various powers without limit to God.

There are many cases in Scripture where God is limited in power as He has to cajole people, including the whole Israelite nation to do as He requests. The idea of God having infinite power is simply a human way of saying that God has wisdom and power beyond what we can really put into words.

I didn't refer to Christianity but to "many religions," but responding to what you say anyway, doesn't this only consider those parts of Scripture that support your position and ignore those that don't? Isn't this inconsistent with your belief that God is a human construction (below you say, "All religion is conceived by humans"), who have been known to be wrong, to make things up, to be inconsistent?

However, with all that He can't make 2+2 make 5.

It's good to know there's someone out there who knows the limits of God's power.

If God had the capability as Tangle seems to think He should have, (even though he doesn't believe He exists),...

I don't keep track of who's an atheist and who's not, but if Tangle's an atheist then I assume that like me he's just looking for consistency in your position. You have a hypothetical that runs somewhat along the lines of, "God exists and has such and so qualities based on my reasoning." You go on to describe your reasoning, and Tangle is critiquing it.

...then yes, we have to question why there is suffering. However, suffering does exist therefore, either there is an overriding purpose for it or it is because of the limitation of what God could do. I'm inclined to think that it is both. It is my speculative contention that the overriding factor is that it is a necessary prelude to the time of the renewal of all things, when suffering is done away with. I think it is God's limitation that this step does involve suffering, and considerable joy as well I should add, and was necessary in order to get to the final goal.

Whatever you want to believe is fine by me.

Percy writes:

Have you ever asked yourself how this God is any different from an alien race far more advanced than ours?

Yes and no. I suppose if this alien race is responsible for life as we know it and has a continuing invisible interest in our affairs then that would be God. However, I would contend that if God does interact with us through our consciousness then it is more likely from another dimension than from within our physical universe.

I'm speechless again.

All religion is conceived by humans...What I believe isn't static and it too has evolved.

I think that says it all.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 556 by GDR, posted 12-07-2019 7:44 PM GDR has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 577 by GDR, posted 12-09-2019 3:41 PM Percy has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 34460
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 572 of 652 (868217)
12-08-2019 10:11 PM
Reply to: Message 570 by Hyroglyphx
12-08-2019 7:55 PM


Re: Biblical Predestination
In a certain sense God's actions are predetermined just as ours are. In a sense He is synonymous with His Moral Law. The Law judges inexorably, it can only judge according to its own character, God can only act according to His own character always. He can only do the absolutely exactly perfectly righteous thing in response to everything that is done in His Creation. This is why He sent Jesus to die for us: because that is the absolutely exactly perfectly righteous thing to do given our situation. We have NO ability to understand this, we do not have the ability to see or understand all the multiplicitous actions that have to be taken into account in judging anything at all.

Predestination is just a way this inexorable character is worked out in the Creation, in our own lives. Shanges occur all the time from our point of view, and we personally make changes, we come to new conclusions, all that is predestined but we cannot see how. Jesus died for our sins, but conditions must be met for that, when they are met we are saved. Repentance is not the onbly condition, we mut recognize Jesus as God and recognize that His death on the cross is what saves us. Judas repented, he had remorse for accusing an innocent man but that's all we know. Those things in themselves aren't enough for salvation.

But again the problem with this kind of discussion is that we can't help imputing to God our own thoughts and understanding, and when we criticize or judge Him by our own standards we are being arrogant to a degree that ought to frighten us because God is our judge, we are not His. God says in scripture that we think He is like us but He is not like us, He is so far above us we can't even begin to imagine it. When scripture says "The beginning of wisdom is fear of the Lord" it means we need to recognized how our sins bring God's judgment on us.

As for Judas Jesus sought out one who had the character that would betray Him. Judging the Creator God is a risky thing to do. As I say the conditions given for salvation are not met by those ascribed to Judas and that's all we know. The rest we should leave to God in fear and trembling.

I note that on your message against Percy's use of censorship as forum discipline, for which I thank you since I've been its primary target, you add "Hail S....."* and that sets my teeth on edge for you. I guess when you gave up your Christian belief you gave it up in spades. I'm sorry.

* I guess maybe I'm being superstitious but I just don't want to put that phrase into print.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 570 by Hyroglyphx, posted 12-08-2019 7:55 PM Hyroglyphx has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 573 by Hyroglyphx, posted 12-08-2019 11:24 PM Faith has responded

  
Hyroglyphx
Member
Posts: 5892
From: Austin, TX
Joined: 05-03-2006
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 573 of 652 (868218)
12-08-2019 11:24 PM
Reply to: Message 572 by Faith
12-08-2019 10:11 PM


Re: Biblical Predestination
I note that on your message against Percy's use of censorship as forum discipline, for which I thank you since I've been its primary target, you add "Hail S....."* and that sets my teeth on edge for you.

That is so funny that you mentioned it because I actually inserted that purposely with you in mind wondering if we'd have this very conversation.

I was just messing around with that last tidbit. F*** Satan!!! And all legions of demons with him

Edited by Hyroglyphx, : No reason given.


"Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it" -- Thomas Paine

This message is a reply to:
 Message 572 by Faith, posted 12-08-2019 10:11 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 575 by Faith, posted 12-09-2019 10:48 AM Hyroglyphx has not yet responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 7296
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 574 of 652 (868222)
12-09-2019 3:51 AM
Reply to: Message 569 by GDR
12-08-2019 7:45 PM


Re: Our conscience
GDR writes:

I'm not at all sure about how you have determined what most Christians believe but I was expressing what I currently believe to be the case.

The idea that god is all powerful, all knowing and everywhere is what is taught. It's not something I would expect many Christians to disagree with. Here's some revision homework.

Characteristics of God - God - GCSE Religious Studies Revision - WJEC - BBC Bitesize

But of course, modern Christians are very flexible on these ideas as they are plainly silly and cause all sorts of doctrinal problems when studied carefully. So modern liberal Christians begin most sentences with “I believe ...” which allows for anything.

Yes I have chosen the option I prefer.

Which is just another way of saying “I believe ...”
Can't argue with “I believe ...”, except to point out that it's irrational.

Firstly I know that my life hasn't, and I doubt that your life has, been a life of unimaginable agony. Yes, life as we know it ends in death but the Christian message is that it isn't death but a transforming of life to the next stage.

You have no sense of perspective. This isn't about you and me and now. Life began billions of years ago and ever since has had to consume other life to simply survive. Modern humans - a species that you would recognise as quite like us - have only been around for about 200,000 years but I betting you wouldn't think of them as having a soul, they lived like wild animals - kill or be killed. Even up to a few hundred years ago life for humans was incredibly difficult, painful and very short. You could die from toothache, having a child was a near death sentence. Just surviving was incredibly hard.

This is not the work of a god that loves his creation. At very best it's the work of one that doesn't care about our suffering.

And no, a few moments of peace and happiness does not make up for all that death and destruction when quite obviously a real loving god could have made it so much better.

I frankly don't have an firm opinion on whether God created Heaven or not. It is my view that heaven represents a dimension or universe integrated with our own, that we with our 5 senses are unable to perceive directly.

More “I believe ...” you are so far away from generic Christianity that it can't be Christianity anymore.

The stories about the battles in heaven are an import from the various pagan faiths of the neighbouring nations of the Jews. Why on earth would Jesus call us to pray that "thy will be done on earth as in heaven" if those stories were accounts to be taken literally.

The entire thing is an import from all sorts of myths!

Also, as I said numerous times, heaven is not our final destination. The Biblical message is that our final destination is a renewed heaven and earth whatever that will look like. That message of course means that how we care for this planet, as well as its inhabitants, does have eternal ramifications.

Again, this is just “I believe ...” stuff. Stuff you've made up to fit modern science and environmental knowledge. Your position would be totally incomprehensible to a 17th century Christian and probably heresy.

I don't accept the idea that anyone , even a psychopath, is denied God's meme, or His still small voice.

Then you're denying evidence. Extreme psychopaths lack conscience and empathy.

I have read stories of psychopaths that have done terrible things but have absolutely adored a pet.

Well that clinches it!

Jesus says something to the effect that much will be required from someone who has been given much. Clearly the opposite is true. If life has given someone a handicap of one form or another it does not mean that there isn't a part of that individual that hates some of what they do and actually desires goodness.

Religious waffle. Try to stick to the facts. If a brain function is missing, the brain can't do it. Psychopaths have a missing brain function.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 569 by GDR, posted 12-08-2019 7:45 PM GDR has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 576 by GDR, posted 12-09-2019 2:23 PM Tangle has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 34460
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


(2)
Message 575 of 652 (868230)
12-09-2019 10:48 AM
Reply to: Message 573 by Hyroglyphx
12-08-2019 11:24 PM


Re: Biblical Predestination
I was just messing around with that last tidbit. F*** Satan!!! And all legions of demons with him

OK, thanks, I'm relieved. Now, howzabout doing something about the glaring statement on the asterisks discussion post, like maybe censor it with some asterisks?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 573 by Hyroglyphx, posted 12-08-2019 11:24 PM Hyroglyphx has not yet responded

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 5061
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 576 of 652 (868263)
12-09-2019 2:23 PM
Reply to: Message 574 by Tangle
12-09-2019 3:51 AM


Re: Our conscience
Tangle writes:

So modern liberal Christians begin most sentences with “I believe ...” which allows for anything.

Of course I use the term I believe. I believe that the God of Christianity exists just as you believe in His non-existence. Neither of us KNOW that our beliefs are correct so I am just being honest about the fact that it is belief.

However, I will add that my belief is strong enough that I base my life on it.

Tangle writes:

Again, this is just “I believe ...” stuff. Stuff you've made up to fit modern science and environmental knowledge. Your position would be totally incomprehensible to a 17th century Christian and probably heresy.

So what? Modern physics would be incomprehensible to even a 19th century physicist. I use to use the term, progressiv revelationto describe how throughout the Bible and then afterwards there has been a greater understanding of God, His purposes and what it means to our lives. I have gone away from that as it implies something I don't agree with, and that is that God kept feeding humans a little more information over time.

I prefer to use the term "progressive understanding". I do think that Dawkins was on to something with his theory of memes. I just go a little further and suggest that we all have a God meme, God's spirit or his "still small voice", and that this is mixed in with all of the social memes that Dawkins talks about. As a result our understanding of God has evolved over the centuries.

So yes, my understanding of God is essentially in concert with Anglicanism which is based on Scripture, reason and tradition. I think that much of Christianity has been distorted by trying to treat the Bible as inerrant and as a result has moved Christianity away from the life of Jesus, His life, His teaching and what the resurrection means.

I believe that gradually the faith is moving away from that and becoming more Jesus focused, and largely what has facilitated that, has been the study of Jesus in His historic context as a 1st century Jew speaking to first century Jews. This is often labelled as The Third Quest".

Tangle writes:

Then you're denying evidence. Extreme psychopaths lack conscience and empathy.

GDR writes:

I have read stories of psychopaths that have done terrible things but have absolutely adored a pet.

Tangle writes:

Well that clinches it!

Just how do you work that out. It shows that the psychopath was able to have empathy for a living creature. We can never know what is going on the the heart or the conscience of any other human being.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 574 by Tangle, posted 12-09-2019 3:51 AM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 578 by Tangle, posted 12-09-2019 3:47 PM GDR has responded

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 5061
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 577 of 652 (868268)
12-09-2019 3:41 PM
Reply to: Message 571 by Percy
12-08-2019 9:16 PM


Re: Our conscience
Percy writes:

How would you suggest I, or anyone, see beyond what we can see, which is limited to what exists in nature.

We can’t. It’s belief. No matter what it is that we believe about the roots of our existence, it remains a belief.
Percy writes:

This is just the old Paley analogy where you've substituted an automobile assembly line for the watch.

No it isn’t. Paley was making an argument against the evolutionary process, claiming that the eye needed all of its component parts to function and therefore couldn’t have evolved one piece at a time. Science has countered with a theory, backed up with some evidence, how it could have evolved. I am talking about life itself, and I am not saying that it couldn’t have evolved. I am simply claiming that an intelligent root cause for all of the processes required, including evolution, are far more suggestive of an intelligent root cause rather than the belief in the mindless combination of particles, chemical processes etc by chance..

I recently read an interesting book called ”Freedom All the Way Up’ in which the author talks about how life could have evolved by design without further divine intervention, and with a divine goal in mind.

Percy writes:

I didn't refer to Christianity but to "many religions," but responding to what you say anyway, doesn't this only consider those parts of Scripture that support your position and ignore those that don't? Isn't this inconsistent with your belief that God is a human construction (below you say, "All religion is conceived by humans"), who have been known to be wrong, to make things up, to be inconsistent?

Yes, Christianity is essentially a man made religion based on the Israel story, and climaxing in God resurrecting Jesus. As I said earlier we can see how their understanding of God progressed through the entire narrative.

I contend that it isn’t about rejecting what I don’t like. I suggest that to understand the OT we need to understand it through the lens of what we have written about Jesus in the Gospels. Then, if we want to understand the Gospels we need to understand them in reference to the OT which Jesus is constantly quoting. The Epistles are the first recorded human understandings of what Christ’s life, message, death and resurrection meant.

This progressive understanding continues. I contend that there has been considerable progress made in the last few years as we move focus far more than we have in the past on Jesus as a 1st century Jew speaking to 1st century Jews. There has long been a movement in the western church to separate Jesus from His Judaism. Thankfully we are progressing beyond that.


He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 571 by Percy, posted 12-08-2019 9:16 PM Percy has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 585 by Percy, posted 12-10-2019 8:53 AM GDR has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 7296
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 578 of 652 (868270)
12-09-2019 3:47 PM
Reply to: Message 576 by GDR
12-09-2019 2:23 PM


Re: Our conscience
GDR writes:

Of course I use the term I believe.

Just so long as you realise that that term only convinces you.

So what? Modern physics would be incomprehensible to even a 19th century physicist.

The 'so what' issue is that it's not obvious why a belief about god and religion should change. God and the book that the belief is based on does not change. All that changes are the religious institution's that purport to represent the god.

Just how do you work that out.

You heard that 'a psychopath’ liked a pet? That's evidence of what exactly?

It shows that the psychopath was able to have empathy for a living creature. We can never know what is going on the the heart or the conscience of any other human being.

One 5 second google

quote:
Individuals with psychopathy have emotions, and some of these emotions are quite intense. However, there are certain emotional states and internal experiences that they do not have.

For example, psychopaths tend to be quite incapable of guilt, remorse, empathy, and deep attachment (bonding) to others. The feeling of fear is often muted for this population.

They do not ‘feel’ the emotional state of others (or care) – emotional empathy. Some with this condition might even assume that no such ability exists when in fact many non-psychopathic individuals have this experience on a consistent basis. Although emotional empathy is extremely deficient, some with psychopathy can recognize the emotional state of others (cognitive empathy) and tend to use this information to manipulate their targets.

Research has identified patterns that are common among those with primary psychopathy.

This particular group is “hyporesponsive” to certain emotions. Meaning, they have low arousal to stressful stimuli and minimal fear reactivity (Herpertz, Werth, Lukas, Qunaibi, Schuerkens, Kunert, Freese, Flesch, Mueller-Isberner, Osterheider, and Sass, 2001).

They tend not to experience significant anxiety. Furthermore, they tend to be incapable of detecting or feeling the distress of others, even if they caused harm (Viding and McCrory, 2012).

Primary psychopaths are also often callous, controlling, arrogant, and have a strong tendency toward reactive and instrumental aggression (Blair, 2010). These are forms of aggression that reflect callous planned harmful actions (instrumental) and impulsive, unplanned harmful actions (reactive).


Do Psychopaths Have Emotions? | Neuroinstincts | Dr. Rhonda Freeman

You are very quick to find escape clauses, do me a favour, do some reading and try to answer the question without an “I believe...” start to the sentence.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 576 by GDR, posted 12-09-2019 2:23 PM GDR has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 579 by GDR, posted 12-09-2019 5:19 PM Tangle has responded
 Message 582 by GDR, posted 12-09-2019 7:07 PM Tangle has responded

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 5061
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 579 of 652 (868272)
12-09-2019 5:19 PM
Reply to: Message 578 by Tangle
12-09-2019 3:47 PM


Re: Our conscience
Tangle writes:

You are very quick to find escape clauses, do me a favour, do some reading and try to answer the question without an “I believe...” start to the sentence.

You are very quick at googling and finding something that you believe, so maybe do me a favour and look at other research as well.

Here is the result of my 5 sec google search. Psychopathic criminals have empathy switch

I don't have time to reply to the rest of your email right now.


He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 578 by Tangle, posted 12-09-2019 3:47 PM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 580 by Tangle, posted 12-09-2019 6:03 PM GDR has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 7296
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 580 of 652 (868273)
12-09-2019 6:03 PM
Reply to: Message 579 by GDR
12-09-2019 5:19 PM


Re: Our conscience
I suggest you re-read that link.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 579 by GDR, posted 12-09-2019 5:19 PM GDR has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 581 by GDR, posted 12-09-2019 6:35 PM Tangle has responded

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 5061
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 581 of 652 (868274)
12-09-2019 6:35 PM
Reply to: Message 580 by Tangle
12-09-2019 6:03 PM


Re: Our conscience
Here is a quote that covers basically the whole report.
quote:
"The predominant notion had been that they are callous individuals, unable to feel emotions themselves and therefore unable to feel emotions in others.

"Our work shows it's not that simple. They don't lack empathy but they have a switch to turn it on and off. By default, it seems to be off."

The fact that they have the capacity to switch empathy on, at least under certain conditions, could have a positive side to it, Prof Keysers said.

"The notion psychopaths have no empathy at all was a bleak prospect. It would make it very hard for them to have normal moral development.

"Now that we've shown they have empathy - even if only in certain conditions - we can give therapists something to work with," Prof Keysers told BBC News.


That empathetic meme is there, but they don't respond to in the same way the others do.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 580 by Tangle, posted 12-09-2019 6:03 PM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 584 by Tangle, posted 12-10-2019 4:27 AM GDR has responded

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 5061
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 582 of 652 (868275)
12-09-2019 7:07 PM
Reply to: Message 578 by Tangle
12-09-2019 3:47 PM


Re: Our conscience
Tangle writes:

Just so long as you realize that that term only convinces you.

Which of course also holds true for your beliefs.

Tangle writes:

You heard that 'a psychopath’ liked a pet? That's evidence of what exactly?

That a psychopath has emotions like caring for and about another creature, however I agree that evidence isn't conclusive but they must have some feeling in regards to their pet.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 578 by Tangle, posted 12-09-2019 3:47 PM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 583 by Tangle, posted 12-10-2019 4:09 AM GDR has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 7296
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 583 of 652 (868282)
12-10-2019 4:09 AM
Reply to: Message 582 by GDR
12-09-2019 7:07 PM


Re: Our conscience
GDR writes:

Which of course also holds true for your beliefs.

I don't have any beliefs. Nothing I say is ever prefaced with “I believe” followed by some unevidenced nonsense that I've just made up.

That a psychopath has emotions like caring for and about another creature, however I agree that evidence isn't conclusive but they must have some feeling in regards to their pet.

It's not even evidence, let alone conclusive evidence. For all I know you just made it up. But even if true, it's got nothing to do with anything that we're discussing - of course they have 'feelings' what they lack is conscience - empathy - and there will be a scale of little to none.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 582 by GDR, posted 12-09-2019 7:07 PM GDR has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 586 by GDR, posted 12-10-2019 7:50 PM Tangle has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 7296
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 584 of 652 (868283)
12-10-2019 4:27 AM
Reply to: Message 581 by GDR
12-09-2019 6:35 PM


Re: Our conscience
GDR writes:

Here is a quote that covers basically the whole report.

That quote does not cover the whole report. It covers the bit that you think supports your view but it doesn't do that either. What it's saying is that in the people they've tested they've found brain activity that equates to empathy when certain activities that the experimenter does switch it on.

In normal conditions the psychopathic brain does not show that activity. In your language that means that the psychopath does not hear the 'still small voice of god' because the switch is set to off.

It's potentially good news that psychopaths may be conditioned by psychiatrists to 'manually' switch a switch that is automatic in most of us but that's modern medicine undoing god's poor work.

But the rest of the report suggests that it might be fruitless anyway.

quote:
Million-dollar question
Essi Viding from University College London, who was not involved with the study, said it was an extremely interesting finding, but that it remained unclear whether the psychopathic criminals' experience of empathy felt the same as that of the controls.

"It's dangerous to look at brain activation and say that it means they're empathising. They are able to generate a typical neural response, but that doesn't mean they have the same empathetic experience," Prof Viding told BBC News.

"We know they can generate the same response but they do that in an active and effortful way. Under free-viewing conditions they don't seem to. Just because they can empathise, doesn't mean they will.

"Psychopathic criminals are clearly different. The million-dollar question is whether we can devise therapeutic interventions that would shift them do this more automatically."



Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 581 by GDR, posted 12-09-2019 6:35 PM GDR has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 587 by GDR, posted 12-10-2019 8:05 PM Tangle has responded

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 19286
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 585 of 652 (868286)
12-10-2019 8:53 AM
Reply to: Message 577 by GDR
12-09-2019 3:41 PM


Re: Our conscience
GDR writes:

Percy writes:

How would you suggest I, or anyone, see beyond what we can see, which is limited to what exists in nature.

We can’t. It’s belief. No matter what it is that we believe about the roots of our existence, it remains a belief.

Of what use is belief? To be useful an idea must be supported by evidence, and it's even better if the evidence is consistent with the rest of the fabric of evidence, fitting into an accepted framework of understanding.

To address the specifics of your comment, if there is no evidence related to the roots of our existence, then anything we think about it is mere belief. But there *is* evidence. Nothing conclusive at this point, but evidence nonetheless.

Percy writes:

This is just the old Paley analogy where you've substituted an automobile assembly line for the watch.

No it isn’t. Paley was making an argument against the evolutionary process, claiming that the eye needed all of its component parts to function and therefore couldn’t have evolved one piece at a time.

Paley's place in history is due to his Watchmaker analogy - Wikipedia. He did go on to draw an analogy with the eye, but your automobile assembly plant example is just Paley's watch analogy.

Science has countered with a theory, backed up with some evidence, how it could have evolved. I am talking about life itself, and I am not saying that it couldn’t have evolved. I am simply claiming that an intelligent root cause for all of the processes required, including evolution, are far more suggestive of an intelligent root cause rather than the belief in the mindless combination of particles, chemical processes etc by chance..

I can't tell if you're talking about evolution or the origin of life.

I recently read an interesting book called ”Freedom All the Way Up’...

We already know it's turtles all the way down.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 577 by GDR, posted 12-09-2019 3:41 PM GDR has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 588 by GDR, posted 12-10-2019 8:28 PM Percy has responded

  
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