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Author Topic:   Christianity is Morally Bankrupt
ringo
Member
Posts: 18112
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 601 of 652 (868502)
12-13-2019 10:58 AM
Reply to: Message 599 by Phat
12-12-2019 3:09 PM


Re: Assertions Regarding What We Do
Phat writes:

Neither of us knows if the other guy has any outward manifestation of Jesus in their heart.


Sure we do. We know you as well as we know anybody that we talk to on a daily basis, more so because we know you're coming back tomorrow with a reply. I can talk to somebody at the bus stop for two minutes and know he's a conservative idiot. How much better do I know you who I've been talking to for fifteen years?

Phat writes:

All that we have to go on is the words each of us writes here at this forum.


That would only be a problem if your words were insincere.

"If you can keep your head when all about you
Are losing theirs and blaming it on you...."
-- Rudyard Kipling

This message is a reply to:
 Message 599 by Phat, posted 12-12-2019 3:09 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 602 by Phat, posted 12-13-2019 11:23 AM ringo has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 13937
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.4


Message 602 of 652 (868504)
12-13-2019 11:23 AM
Reply to: Message 601 by ringo
12-13-2019 10:58 AM


Re: Assertions Regarding What We Do
jar writes:

It would help if you told us how to identify and test any outward manifestation of Jesus in their heart.

Thats my point. How can I test either you or ringo? Not necessarily that I care to...you both seem as if you do things in your respective communities to fight the good fight...either through spare change or taking out the neighbors garbage. I dont usually talk much here at EvC about what I do, but I assure you I dont just sit around griping about apologetics on the forum. My deeds are usually automatic and not something I keep track of.

ringo writes:

How much better do I know you who I've been talking to for fifteen years?

And yet never in 15 years have we actually hung out together. One of my friends who has no car asked for a ride to the Best Buy this morning. I could have been selfish and said no, but I routinely go that extra mile for people whom I know or who are in my community. Its not something I normally even bring up or need to bring up, but since you are always telling me I ignore the message, I am wondering what on earth you expect me to do above and beyond the stuff I normally do and the time I spend pontificating on this internet forum? Perhaps I set a bad example here...I certainly believe that some of our arguments here are faith killers for other lurkers who might just be seeking some hope in life. They too can see what we say every day for however many years they pay attention. Sometimes I think that all of us here at the forum need to weigh our words more carefully. Teaching people to be skeptical of Jesus Christ and to throw God away is hardly good advice, in my opinion. Then again, I sometimes get sarcastic and snippy with members such as Theodoric...but only because he does the same to me. Only people who knew us both could see the arguments in context. Sometimes I think he expects me to be a "professional moderator" rather than simply a ranting old man 100% of the time. Maybe he has a point, I dunno.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"We, humans, are engaged in an ongoing war of ideologies. I see it in this microcosm of EvC Forum just as I see it in the governments and attitudes of people throughout the world. Take your pick: Oppression or Seduction .
"~Thugpreacha

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

“As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”
? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith


This message is a reply to:
 Message 601 by ringo, posted 12-13-2019 10:58 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 603 by ringo, posted 12-13-2019 11:40 AM Phat has not yet responded
 Message 604 by jar, posted 12-13-2019 11:52 AM Phat has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 18112
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 603 of 652 (868508)
12-13-2019 11:40 AM
Reply to: Message 602 by Phat
12-13-2019 11:23 AM


Re: Assertions Regarding What We Do
Phat writes:

And yet never in 15 years have we actually hung out together.


What would that add?

Are you suggesting that two blind people who have spoken to each other every day for fifteen years don't "know" each other because they've never seen each other face to face?

Phat writes:

... I am wondering what on earth you expect me to do above and beyond the stuff I normally do....


I'm not expecting anything of you. I'm saying that there's nothing to indicate that you're different from most non-believers. the fruit is the same.

Phat writes:

I certainly believe that some of our arguments here are faith killers for other lurkers who might just be seeking some hope in life.


I hope so. Freedom of thought is better than false hope.

"If you can keep your head when all about you
Are losing theirs and blaming it on you...."
-- Rudyard Kipling

This message is a reply to:
 Message 602 by Phat, posted 12-13-2019 11:23 AM Phat has not yet responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 32512
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 604 of 652 (868509)
12-13-2019 11:52 AM
Reply to: Message 602 by Phat
12-13-2019 11:23 AM


Re: Assertions Regarding What We Do
Phat, you are the person who is claiming that some folk do show an outward manifestation of Jesus in their heart.

Your response as expected simply never addresses the question.

How do you identify an outward manifestation of Jesus in their heart?


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 602 by Phat, posted 12-13-2019 11:23 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 605 by Phat, posted 12-13-2019 3:01 PM jar has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 13937
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.4


Message 605 of 652 (868524)
12-13-2019 3:01 PM
Reply to: Message 604 by jar
12-13-2019 11:52 AM


Re: Assertions Regarding What We Do
jar writes:

How do you identify an outward manifestation of Jesus in their heart?

Good question. At church, everybody puts on a face. Granted people don't try and fake it, but it is evident that the language and mannerisms change a bit inside the Sanctuary and on church grounds. This likely holds true more so for conservative charismatic churches. Liberal churches such as the Episcopalians likely act closer to the same no matter where they are, but then again, they don't have the responsibility of "acting saved".

There is something to that, however. I have noticed that "Born Again" people...that is, people who claim to actually know Jesus as opposed to knowing about Him seem to have a love of scripture, a love of church chat, (sanctified gossip) and sadly, often an air of superiority over the unsaved heathens at the football games and malls and country fairs with the kissing booths and all that the secular carnal people partake in without guilt or awareness.

Let's go deeper, though. There are some loving and giving selfless people in this world. They are few and far between but they are the ones who give unselfishly and often, go out of their way to help anyone and everyone that they come across, and do it with little pomp or desire to attract attention to themselves. They often have a warm glow about them. They look as if they are in love. I would say that they are in love with Jesus first, and people as a result. You could argue that these people don't have to profess any belief and that they just exist throughout all beliefs ad cultures. I would argue that they surely must know Jesus. You might argue that Jesus being alive or present does not really matter.

Edited by Thugpreacha, : No reason given.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"We, humans, are engaged in an ongoing war of ideologies. I see it in this microcosm of EvC Forum just as I see it in the governments and attitudes of people throughout the world. Take your pick: Oppression or Seduction .
"~Thugpreacha

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

“As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”
? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith


This message is a reply to:
 Message 604 by jar, posted 12-13-2019 11:52 AM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 606 by jar, posted 12-13-2019 4:35 PM Phat has not yet responded
 Message 610 by Theodoric, posted 12-13-2019 4:57 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
jar
Member
Posts: 32512
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 606 of 652 (868526)
12-13-2019 4:35 PM
Reply to: Message 605 by Phat
12-13-2019 3:01 PM


Re: Assertions Regarding What We Do
Phat writes:

Let's go deeper, though. There are some loving and giving selfless people in this world. They are few and far between but they are the ones who give unselfishly and often, go out of their way to help anyone and everyone that they come across, and do it with little pomp or desire to attract attention to themselves. They often have a warm glow about them. They look as if they are in love. I would say that they are in love with Jesus first, and people as a result. You could argue that these people don't have to profess any belief and that they just exist throughout all beliefs ad cultures. I would argue that they surely must know Jesus. You might argue that Jesus being alive or present does not really matter.

Again, nothing but word salad.

You would argue that they surely must know Jesus but based on WHAT?


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 605 by Phat, posted 12-13-2019 3:01 PM Phat has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 607 by Theodoric, posted 12-13-2019 4:41 PM jar has responded

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 7051
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005


Message 607 of 652 (868527)
12-13-2019 4:41 PM
Reply to: Message 606 by jar
12-13-2019 4:35 PM


Re: Assertions Regarding What We Do
Why would they have to be christians? There are buddhists, atheists, muslims, jainists and pastafarians that act like that. What does acting like that have to do with this jesus dude?

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 606 by jar, posted 12-13-2019 4:35 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 608 by jar, posted 12-13-2019 4:52 PM Theodoric has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 32512
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 608 of 652 (868528)
12-13-2019 4:52 PM
Reply to: Message 607 by Theodoric
12-13-2019 4:41 PM


Re: Assertions Regarding What We Do
Got me. That was a question I asked as well.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 607 by Theodoric, posted 12-13-2019 4:41 PM Theodoric has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 609 by Theodoric, posted 12-13-2019 4:56 PM jar has responded

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 7051
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005


Message 609 of 652 (868529)
12-13-2019 4:56 PM
Reply to: Message 608 by jar
12-13-2019 4:52 PM


Re: Assertions Regarding What We Do
Sorry I meant to address that to Phat not you.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 608 by jar, posted 12-13-2019 4:52 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 611 by jar, posted 12-13-2019 6:03 PM Theodoric has not yet responded
 Message 612 by Phat, posted 12-14-2019 3:11 AM Theodoric has responded

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 7051
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005


Message 610 of 652 (868530)
12-13-2019 4:57 PM
Reply to: Message 605 by Phat
12-13-2019 3:01 PM


Re: Assertions Regarding What We Do
Message 607 should be a reply to you.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 605 by Phat, posted 12-13-2019 3:01 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
jar
Member
Posts: 32512
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.9


(1)
Message 611 of 652 (868539)
12-13-2019 6:03 PM
Reply to: Message 609 by Theodoric
12-13-2019 4:56 PM


Re: Assertions Regarding What We Do
There is a Christian centric answer though and from CS Lewis in the Last Battle Narnia book.

The answer really runs through much of the Red Letter parts of the New Testament. Jesus takes any good things done by anyone as though they were done for Him while bad things are done for evil.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 609 by Theodoric, posted 12-13-2019 4:56 PM Theodoric has not yet responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 13937
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.4


Message 612 of 652 (868547)
12-14-2019 3:11 AM
Reply to: Message 609 by Theodoric
12-13-2019 4:56 PM


Re: Assertions Regarding What We Do
I am a bit conservative in my belief regarding the Holy Spirit. I don't believe that this Spirit is simply some kum-ba-yah feelgood altruism that flows through all beliefs and all people. I believe that the Holy Spirit is quite specific and quite exclusive. Inclusiveness does not apply here. Anyone who wants to know why has to understand that God, the Holy Spirit is not relativistic and compromising. All beliefs don't simply melt and blend together in some orgasmic feelgood fest. But I don't really know how I could explain it.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"We, humans, are engaged in an ongoing war of ideologies. I see it in this microcosm of EvC Forum just as I see it in the governments and attitudes of people throughout the world. Take your pick: Oppression or Seduction .
"~Thugpreacha

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

“As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”
? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith


This message is a reply to:
 Message 609 by Theodoric, posted 12-13-2019 4:56 PM Theodoric has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 613 by Theodoric, posted 12-14-2019 12:33 PM Phat has not yet responded
 Message 614 by ringo, posted 12-14-2019 12:43 PM Phat has not yet responded

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 7051
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005


Message 613 of 652 (868560)
12-14-2019 12:33 PM
Reply to: Message 612 by Phat
12-14-2019 3:11 AM


Re: Assertions Regarding What We Do
This reads like words strung together to sound impressive. In reality all those words strung together mean nothing.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 612 by Phat, posted 12-14-2019 3:11 AM Phat has not yet responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 18112
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.4


(2)
Message 614 of 652 (868561)
12-14-2019 12:43 PM
Reply to: Message 612 by Phat
12-14-2019 3:11 AM


Re: Assertions Regarding What We Do
Phat writes:

I believe that the Holy Spirit is quite specific and quite exclusive. Inclusiveness does not apply here.


And it conveniently includes you.

Phat writes:

Anyone who wants to know why has to understand that God, the Holy Spirit is not relativistic and compromising.


Luckily for you, He thinks exactly the way you do.

A cynic might think you made Him up, tailored perfectly to suit you.


"If you can keep your head when all about you
Are losing theirs and blaming it on you...."
-- Rudyard Kipling

This message is a reply to:
 Message 612 by Phat, posted 12-14-2019 3:11 AM Phat has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 615 by Faith, posted 12-14-2019 3:29 PM ringo has responded

  
Faith 
Suspended Member
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 615 of 652 (868566)
12-14-2019 3:29 PM
Reply to: Message 614 by ringo
12-14-2019 12:43 PM


Re: Assertions Regarding What We Do
I don't know why Thugsy continues to try to talk to you but maybe it's because he doesn't understand the topic well enough himself. Here yhou are trtying to make Christian doctrine, specifically the Holy Spirit, out to be his own personal invention. That's crap. Nobody should listen to you for half a second.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 614 by ringo, posted 12-14-2019 12:43 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 616 by jar, posted 12-14-2019 3:35 PM Faith has responded
 Message 618 by Phat, posted 12-14-2019 4:16 PM Faith has not yet responded
 Message 637 by ringo, posted 12-15-2019 1:28 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
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