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Author Topic:   A personal morality
fallacycop
Member (Idle past 4076 days)
Posts: 692
From: Fortaleza-CE Brazil
Joined: 02-18-2006


Message 16 of 196 (392953)
04-02-2007 11:34 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Neutralmind
04-02-2007 8:57 PM


I have a fear, no... I know that if I KNEW for sure, that there was absolutely no doubt that relative morality is correct I'd become one of the most immoral guys in this planet.

I doubt it. You clearly know it to be true and still, you are not out there raping and killing. Instead, you are here enjoying yourself talking about it with us over the internet.

I know this isn't the case for most. For many I know this wouldn't change much in their life but in mine... I KNOW I would become like that and I have no idea why I wouldn't want to be like that, now that I know (not KNOW) that relative morality is in fact correct.
I don`t think you would. the reason you wouldn`t want to become a imoral person is because that`s not who you are. Your morality comes from within you and a simple change in your understanding about how the world operates wouldn`t make a dent. denying your own nature would be unbearable.

This message is a reply to:
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fallacycop
Member (Idle past 4076 days)
Posts: 692
From: Fortaleza-CE Brazil
Joined: 02-18-2006


Message 19 of 196 (392956)
04-02-2007 11:54 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by Rob
04-02-2007 10:00 PM


For example, a good friend once reminded me while we were discussing a particular moral issue, that I cannot impose my morality onto others.

After several days it hit me... So I called him and I asked him, 'Why'? 'Would it be wrong to do so'?

If morality is not a real and objective thing, then how can we protest anything?


Someone might argue that it`s not a question of right and wrong. It really is a question of true and untrue. If there happens to be to real god (a logical possibility) then there is no absolute morality. It would be (is) up to us as human beings do find for ourselves what we consider to be right or wrong (not a simple matter, but hey! who said it had to be simple?)

I think it is insidious and diabolically clever, for a philosophy like moral relativism to claim neutrality, when there is no possible way to apply it without labling it's alternative (objective morality), as 'wrong'.
Not wrong. just incorrect. That`s a huge difference. wrong implies a moral reason for us to drop the absolute morality, as oposed to as simply not being a good mirror for reality. You seem to have this absolute way to look at things rooted so deeply in your being that you find it hard not to think in terms of rights and wrongs.

Will liars suddenly start becoming honest with me out of respect for my belief in truth? I don't think so...

What`s that`s got to do with anything? really?

So in my mind, it is nonsense to even suggest such things as relative morality, because for it to work, we must assume another morality to be at work to support it, and that is one of respecting others, as you wish to be respected.
May be in your mind. But out here in the real world your pseudoparadox doesn`t seem to hold water.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by Rob, posted 04-02-2007 10:00 PM Rob has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 20 by Rob, posted 04-03-2007 12:00 AM fallacycop has responded

  
fallacycop
Member (Idle past 4076 days)
Posts: 692
From: Fortaleza-CE Brazil
Joined: 02-18-2006


Message 21 of 196 (392958)
04-03-2007 12:04 AM
Reply to: Message 18 by kuresu
04-02-2007 11:52 PM


Re: you are correct...
Furthermore, if morality is relative, then so is justice and mercy. The whole idea that life is meaningful, would very quickly devolve into meaningless chaos.

non sequiter.


I agree. But even if it were not a non sequitur, it would still be appealing to consequences.
Rob seems to think that if something leads to internal chaos (inside his mind), then it cannot possibly be true.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 23 by Rob, posted 04-03-2007 12:08 AM fallacycop has responded

  
fallacycop
Member (Idle past 4076 days)
Posts: 692
From: Fortaleza-CE Brazil
Joined: 02-18-2006


Message 24 of 196 (392962)
04-03-2007 12:17 AM
Reply to: Message 20 by Rob
04-03-2007 12:00 AM


Tell a mother who's child was murdered by a drive by, that it was just a mistake.

Was Nazi Germany a mistake?

Is child Molestation a simple error?

etc...


I said it once, and I`ll say it again. what`s that got to do with anything???

I didn`t say those things are mistakes. I said it is a mistake to think that they are wrong because of some absolute morality. Correct would be to say that those things are wrong because we as human beings (with our relative morality) find those things abhorent (probabily misspeled).

Checkmate!

Don`t you wish it would be so easy?!!

I have to wonder what sin you like so much, that it is worth justifying things that are evil as mistakes?
I`m not trying to justify anything. I`m just concerned with truth, and whether there really is an absolute morality handed down from god to man. I`m convinced that there isn`t, and I`m fine with that. I`m not any less moral for it if you want to know.

Edited by fallacycop, : typo


This message is a reply to:
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fallacycop
Member (Idle past 4076 days)
Posts: 692
From: Fortaleza-CE Brazil
Joined: 02-18-2006


Message 27 of 196 (392966)
04-03-2007 12:24 AM
Reply to: Message 23 by Rob
04-03-2007 12:08 AM


Re: you are correct...
Do you think chaos (incoherence) can be true?
The only chaotic thing aroud here, as far as I can see, is the way you think about things. You`ve been making fallacious arguments against relative morality. All I`ve done was to point them out.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by Rob, posted 04-03-2007 12:08 AM Rob has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 28 by Rob, posted 04-03-2007 12:40 AM fallacycop has responded

  
fallacycop
Member (Idle past 4076 days)
Posts: 692
From: Fortaleza-CE Brazil
Joined: 02-18-2006


Message 29 of 196 (392975)
04-03-2007 12:48 AM
Reply to: Message 28 by Rob
04-03-2007 12:40 AM


Re: you are correct...
If you say that chaotic ideas can be true

I don`t think I ever said that. What I said was that the only chaos around here is inside your mind. meaning it is a figment of your imagination.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 28 by Rob, posted 04-03-2007 12:40 AM Rob has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 30 by Rob, posted 04-03-2007 12:58 AM fallacycop has not yet responded

  
fallacycop
Member (Idle past 4076 days)
Posts: 692
From: Fortaleza-CE Brazil
Joined: 02-18-2006


Message 33 of 196 (392989)
04-03-2007 1:28 AM
Reply to: Message 32 by Rob
04-03-2007 1:12 AM


Re: you are correct...
And that's why people try to relativize it away, and come up with their own system.
I don`t think people com up with moral systems because they want to do away with someoneelse`s moral system. We all do it because we are moral beings. It is in our nature. We just can`t help it. That does not make those morals absolute, though. they are relative because they were created by men, not gods. they are just the best we could com up with, as human beings.

Rules will not save us.
. salvation seems to be such a selfish reason for anybody to try to be moral. It`s so blatantly contradictory that I don`t see how it could possibily work.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by Rob, posted 04-03-2007 1:12 AM Rob has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 37 by Rob, posted 04-03-2007 9:52 AM fallacycop has not yet responded

  
fallacycop
Member (Idle past 4076 days)
Posts: 692
From: Fortaleza-CE Brazil
Joined: 02-18-2006


Message 86 of 196 (393407)
04-04-2007 11:19 PM
Reply to: Message 84 by Rob
04-04-2007 10:57 PM


Re: Just fear of the consequences?
Then why do people do good things?

Because it is the right thing to do...

Some people do good things because they feel good when they do it. But you seem to believe that people will only do the right thing if they are handed the (absolute) rules by some higher being (god). If that`s true, I have to say I do not envy you. you really must have a joyless life if you keep doing the right thing and still don`t get any pleasure out of it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 84 by Rob, posted 04-04-2007 10:57 PM Rob has not yet responded

  
fallacycop
Member (Idle past 4076 days)
Posts: 692
From: Fortaleza-CE Brazil
Joined: 02-18-2006


Message 105 of 196 (393620)
04-06-2007 1:10 AM
Reply to: Message 99 by Neutralmind
04-05-2007 8:00 PM


Actually, most of my friends are what I consider immoral, drink, have one night stands, some use drugs

Now you`ve opened an entirely new can of warms. Why would those things be considered immoral? but I suppose this question might be off topic here.

But consider that:
I may have had one or two one night stands in my entire life. If I said I didn`t enjoy them, I would be lying. So why haven`t I had any more? simply put, I enjoy long term relationships even more. But other people may have different inclinations. I don`t feel the need to label their behaviour as immoral, though. If a couple decides to have a one-time-fling, how does that hurt me or anybody else? How could I honestly lable their behaviour as immoral?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 99 by Neutralmind, posted 04-05-2007 8:00 PM Neutralmind has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 107 by a servant of Christ, posted 04-06-2007 1:32 AM fallacycop has responded

  
fallacycop
Member (Idle past 4076 days)
Posts: 692
From: Fortaleza-CE Brazil
Joined: 02-18-2006


Message 112 of 196 (393629)
04-06-2007 2:07 AM
Reply to: Message 107 by a servant of Christ
04-06-2007 1:32 AM


You destroy any self-worth you had

That`s not ut to you to decide. Every person has to decide by themselves what gives them self worth.

You fulfill a basic animalistic tendency which is not of any worth

Just your opinion. I, for instance, am very proud of being an animal.

Mill calls these type of pleasures that all animals enjoy "lesser pleasures". I elaborate on that by saying they are indeed, lesser because he in fact did not refer to them as lesser in regards to their value.

I couldn`t care less about Mill`s (who the heck is him?) opinion.

Besides being an instance of "appeal to authority" fallacy, what you said makes no sense.

You do not actually love the person that you use. This degrades the value of love.

There are many forms of love. Besides, love is stronger then you are implying.

By having a "one-time-fling" solely for immediate gratification and not founded on love you only hurt yourself.

Who are you to decide what`s hurtfull to other people? That`s their prehogative, not yours.

You make yourself sick

Not necessarily.

Someone told me ignorance is not bliss and for the sake of humanity I must believe it.

A completely irrelevant conclusion to your post. (which, by the way, is not entirely surprising...)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 107 by a servant of Christ, posted 04-06-2007 1:32 AM a servant of Christ has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 113 by a servant of Christ, posted 04-06-2007 2:22 AM fallacycop has responded

  
fallacycop
Member (Idle past 4076 days)
Posts: 692
From: Fortaleza-CE Brazil
Joined: 02-18-2006


Message 116 of 196 (393634)
04-06-2007 2:42 AM
Reply to: Message 113 by a servant of Christ
04-06-2007 2:22 AM


Mill is an authority on morality having fathered utilitarianism I guess I'm not guilty.

Sorry, but I just don`t buy that. Your arguments in these fora must stand on their own. Besides, as I pointed out, what you said made no sense. No external "Authorities" will change that. (May be you just misstyped?)

Is that all you could come up with against my previous post?

I'm discussing morality with people that are wanton about knowledge.

Your immorality will catch up on you.


Unecessary prsonal attacks. Your debating style isn`t doing much to further your points, in case you haven`t noticed...

This message is a reply to:
 Message 113 by a servant of Christ, posted 04-06-2007 2:22 AM a servant of Christ has not yet responded

  
fallacycop
Member (Idle past 4076 days)
Posts: 692
From: Fortaleza-CE Brazil
Joined: 02-18-2006


Message 117 of 196 (393635)
04-06-2007 2:53 AM
Reply to: Message 114 by a servant of Christ
04-06-2007 2:36 AM


Well, you will see the flaw in your memorization.

I do more then simply memorizing fallacies. I think critically about them.

I think if is quite funny that you brought in a second appeal to authority in order to justify the first.

But that was really the least important point I made in my post because a statement can still be true even if all that was given to support it was an empty appeal to authority.

Why don`t you address some of my other more relevant points?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 114 by a servant of Christ, posted 04-06-2007 2:36 AM a servant of Christ has not yet responded

  
fallacycop
Member (Idle past 4076 days)
Posts: 692
From: Fortaleza-CE Brazil
Joined: 02-18-2006


Message 126 of 196 (393777)
04-06-2007 10:13 PM
Reply to: Message 119 by New Cat's Eye
04-06-2007 2:58 PM


Re: Talkin' 'bout my morality...
If I lost my faith and became atheist, the immoral behaviors that I avoid because of their affects on God alone would have no reason to be avoided anymore.

If I became an atheist, I would behave more immorally.

I don`t see how the second frase above follows from the first. Would you care to explain?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 119 by New Cat's Eye, posted 04-06-2007 2:58 PM New Cat's Eye has not yet responded

  
fallacycop
Member (Idle past 4076 days)
Posts: 692
From: Fortaleza-CE Brazil
Joined: 02-18-2006


Message 128 of 196 (393840)
04-07-2007 6:07 PM
Reply to: Message 127 by Max Power
04-07-2007 12:16 AM


Re: Talkin' 'bout my morality...
It seems like the reason for not being an atheist is that it goes against god.

Not even that, because may be god cares more about whether you keep your intellectual integrity then whether you go against him or not.

You cannot hurt god by going against him/her/it/them. He`s god. We are mere mortals.

But you can hurt yourself by going against your own beliefs.

A loving god would know that, and wish you to be yourself, even if that meant you becoming an atheist.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 127 by Max Power, posted 04-07-2007 12:16 AM Max Power has not yet responded

  
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