Understanding through Discussion


Welcome! You are not logged in. [ Login ]
EvC Forum active members: 78 (8905 total)
Current session began: 
Page Loaded: 04-24-2019 2:05 AM
26 online now:
Dredge, dwise1, PaulK, Pressie (4 members, 22 visitors)
Chatting now:  Chat room empty
Newest Member: WookieeB
Post Volume:
Total: 850,135 Year: 5,172/19,786 Month: 1,294/873 Week: 190/460 Day: 6/29 Hour: 0/6


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
RewPrev1
...
9101112
13
14Next
Author Topic:   A personal morality
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 181 of 196 (395188)
04-15-2007 1:37 PM
Reply to: Message 180 by nator
04-13-2007 9:51 PM


Re: Talkin' 'bout my morality...
You, a believer, an educated professional, and an adult, are claiming that morality comes from God, and you rely on God to tell you that getting into bar fights is wrong when your conscience fails you.

You've misunderstood me.

Its not that I need god to tell me that getting into bar fights is wrong, its that god helps in preventing me from doing something that I know is wrong.

quote:
When my conscience isn't getting the job done, I can turn to god to pick up the slack.

That's still your conscience.

Some people attribute it (or in your case, a part of it) to God (or their long-dead Grandmother, or someone else they wouldn't want to disappoint), but everybody has it.

I don't think its my conscience. Of course everybody has it. Even though everybody has it, that doesn't mean it isn't from god. If it was from god, unbelievers would still have it even though they don't believe in him.


None of the unbelievers I know get into bar fights, nor have they engaged in violence since they were immature children.

I guess that's just more evidense that believing makes you get into bar fights :rolleyes:

And they're gonna be fucked when they actually need to use violence.

Bar fighting is all culture. It doesn't matter if you're a believer or mature.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 180 by nator, posted 04-13-2007 9:51 PM nator has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 182 by ringo, posted 04-15-2007 2:11 PM New Cat's Eye has responded
 Message 183 by nator, posted 04-16-2007 8:16 AM New Cat's Eye has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 16358
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.5


Message 182 of 196 (395193)
04-15-2007 2:11 PM
Reply to: Message 181 by New Cat's Eye
04-15-2007 1:37 PM


Re: Talkin' 'bout my morality...
Catholic Scientist writes:

Bar fighting is all culture. It doesn't matter if you're a believer or mature.

So culture trumps belief. If you were born into a Buddhist culture, you'd be a Buddhist. If you were born into an atheist culture, you'd be an atheist.

Doesn't that suggest that your morality is not belief-based?


Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation.
Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC
This message is a reply to:
 Message 181 by New Cat's Eye, posted 04-15-2007 1:37 PM New Cat's Eye has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 184 by New Cat's Eye, posted 04-16-2007 10:24 AM ringo has responded

  
nator
Member (Idle past 279 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 183 of 196 (395382)
04-16-2007 8:16 AM
Reply to: Message 181 by New Cat's Eye
04-15-2007 1:37 PM


Re: Talkin' 'bout my morality...
quote:
I don't think its my conscience.

But then you are merely dismissing the evidence from neuroscience regarding the role of the ventromedial frontal cortex in producing the conscience.

To follow your lead, it means that God's ability to instill morality and a conscience in people can be stymied by a brain injury.

quote:
If it was from god, unbelievers would still have it even though they don't believe in him.

Since everybody has a brain, everybody has a conscience.

...except the people who's ventromedial frontal cortex is damaged or abnormal.

That's what Occam's Razor tells us.

quote:
And they're gonna be fucked when they actually need to use violence.

See, to me, part of growing up is learning how to deal with people and situations without resorting to violence.

Getting into fights (not talking about self-defense) is most often a failure of maturity, wisdom, and intelligence.

quote:
Bar fighting is all culture.

See, here's what my non-God, brain-based, unbeliever morality tells me about that.

If it is the culture where you live that otherwise educated adult people regularly get into drunken brawls in bars, and your morality tells you that getting into bar fights is wrong yet you are tempted to do so in those places anyway, then you don't go to the bars where the fights happen.

Didn't God ever tell you that?

Edited by nator, : No reason given.

Edited by nator, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 181 by New Cat's Eye, posted 04-15-2007 1:37 PM New Cat's Eye has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 185 by New Cat's Eye, posted 04-16-2007 10:48 AM nator has responded

    
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 184 of 196 (395393)
04-16-2007 10:24 AM
Reply to: Message 182 by ringo
04-15-2007 2:11 PM


Re: Talkin' 'bout my morality...
Catholic Scientist writes:

Bar fighting is all culture. It doesn't matter if you're a believer or mature.


So culture trumps belief. If you were born into a Buddhist culture, you'd be a Buddhist. If you were born into an atheist culture, you'd be an atheist.

Doesn't that suggest that your morality is not belief-based?

Sure, from the get-go. But if you go and change your beliefs, it would affect your morality.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 182 by ringo, posted 04-15-2007 2:11 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 186 by ringo, posted 04-16-2007 11:04 AM New Cat's Eye has responded

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 185 of 196 (395395)
04-16-2007 10:48 AM
Reply to: Message 183 by nator
04-16-2007 8:16 AM


Re: Talkin' 'bout my morality...
But then you are merely dismissing the evidence from neuroscience regarding the role of the ventromedial frontal cortex in producing the conscience.

No, I was typing about something other than my conscience.

To follow your lead, it means that God's ability to instill morality and a conscience in people can be stymied by a brain injury.

Not necessarily.

Why must you always twist and turn what I'm saying?

It is so annoying.

See, here's what my non-God, brain-based, unbeliever morality tells me about that.

We're not even talking about the same thing.

then you don't go to the bars where the fights happen

Wow, that's just brilliant :rolleyes:

Not only are we not on the same page, we're not even in the same book.


See, to me, part of growing up is learning how to deal with people and situations without resorting to violence.

Bad people look for people like you to prey upon.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 183 by nator, posted 04-16-2007 8:16 AM nator has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 187 by nator, posted 04-16-2007 11:45 AM New Cat's Eye has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 16358
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.5


Message 186 of 196 (395399)
04-16-2007 11:04 AM
Reply to: Message 184 by New Cat's Eye
04-16-2007 10:24 AM


Re: Talkin' 'bout my morality...
atholic Scientist writes:

Doesn't that suggest that your morality is not belief-based?

Sure, from the get-go. But if you go and change your beliefs, it would affect your morality.

So you keep saying, but how?

If your morality is not belief-based, how can changing your beliefs change your morality?

If your feet hurt, how can changing your tie relieve the pain?


Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation.
Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC
This message is a reply to:
 Message 184 by New Cat's Eye, posted 04-16-2007 10:24 AM New Cat's Eye has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 188 by New Cat's Eye, posted 04-16-2007 1:32 PM ringo has responded

  
nator
Member (Idle past 279 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 187 of 196 (395402)
04-16-2007 11:45 AM
Reply to: Message 185 by New Cat's Eye
04-16-2007 10:48 AM


Re: Talkin' 'bout my morality...
quote:
No, I was typing about something other than my conscience.

But what is that thing? Your assertions don't constitute a real argument in favor of the existence of anything beyond a brain-based conscience.

To follow your lead, it means that God's ability to instill morality and a conscience in people can be stymied by a brain injury.

quote:
Not necessarily.

Well, actually, yes, this is the logical conclusion of what you are claiming. It is not "twisting" what you are saying to apply your claims to the issue and follow where they lead.

Aren't you claiming that at least some of what we call the human conscience is NOT produced in the brain and is instilled in us by God?

If what you say is true, it shouldn't be possible to remove this God-given conscience through damage to the brain, right?

See, to me, part of growing up is learning how to deal with people and situations without resorting to violence.

quote:
Bad people look for people like you to prey upon.

No, bad people look for people like you who are easily goaded into foolish behavior, like brawling in bars, to prey upon.

Who's the smart one; the person who gets into the fight, or the person who avoids the fight in the first place?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 185 by New Cat's Eye, posted 04-16-2007 10:48 AM New Cat's Eye has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 189 by New Cat's Eye, posted 04-16-2007 1:44 PM nator has responded

    
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 188 of 196 (395422)
04-16-2007 1:32 PM
Reply to: Message 186 by ringo
04-16-2007 11:04 AM


Re: Talkin' 'bout my morality...
But if you go and change your beliefs, it would affect your morality.

So you keep saying, but how?

I don't see what the problem is, I mean, how wouldn't it?

If your beliefs on what is moral changes, certainly your morality would change. If your source for guidelines on morality changed (i.e religion) then your morality would change.

If your morality is not belief-based, how can changing your beliefs change your morality?

Changing your beliefs can affect how much influence your culture has.

If your feet hurt, how can changing your tie relieve the pain?

If it weighs less :D


This message is a reply to:
 Message 186 by ringo, posted 04-16-2007 11:04 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 190 by ringo, posted 04-16-2007 1:51 PM New Cat's Eye has responded

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 189 of 196 (395426)
04-16-2007 1:44 PM
Reply to: Message 187 by nator
04-16-2007 11:45 AM


Re: Talkin' 'bout my morality...
Your assertions don't constitute a real argument in favor of the existence of anything beyond a brain-based conscience.

Oh well.

Well, actually, yes, this is the logical conclusion of what you are claiming.

Only with your faulty premises.

It is not "twisting" what you are saying to apply your claims to the issue and follow where they lead.

Your error is that your not following my claims. You twist and then follow.

Aren't you claiming that at least some of what we call the human conscience is NOT produced in the brain and is instilled in us by God?If what you say is true, it shouldn't be possible to remove this God-given conscience through damage to the brain, right?

Wrong. That's not what I'm saying.

I'll tell you what, any time you end a sentence with ",right?" or ",no?", you're probably wrong about what I'm saying.


I don't have time right now to give you the detailed explanation you need for what I thought was a fairly simple concept to understand.

And given your intentions for only twisting what I'm trying to say, it will be pretty low on my "To Do" list.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 187 by nator, posted 04-16-2007 11:45 AM nator has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 193 by nator, posted 04-16-2007 4:58 PM New Cat's Eye has not yet responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 16358
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.5


Message 190 of 196 (395428)
04-16-2007 1:51 PM
Reply to: Message 188 by New Cat's Eye
04-16-2007 1:32 PM


Catholic Scientist writes:

If your source for guidelines on morality changed (i.e religion) then your morality would change.

But you've agreed that your morality is not belief-based - i.e. not religion-based - in Message 184. You've agreed that we learn our morality from the culture we are born into.

Changing your religion (or changing to atheism) doesn't change what was trained into you at an early age.


Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation.
Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC
This message is a reply to:
 Message 188 by New Cat's Eye, posted 04-16-2007 1:32 PM New Cat's Eye has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 191 by New Cat's Eye, posted 04-16-2007 3:33 PM ringo has responded

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 191 of 196 (395451)
04-16-2007 3:33 PM
Reply to: Message 190 by ringo
04-16-2007 1:51 PM


You've agreed that we learn our morality from the culture we are born into.

So?, That's how it starts. It doesn't mean that it can't change afterwards. You think your morality is unchangeable?

Changing your religion (or changing to atheism) doesn't change what was trained into you at an early age.

It doesn't change what was trained but it could change what training you dismiss, or what addition training you accept.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 190 by ringo, posted 04-16-2007 1:51 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 192 by ringo, posted 04-16-2007 4:04 PM New Cat's Eye has not yet responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 16358
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.5


Message 192 of 196 (395454)
04-16-2007 4:04 PM
Reply to: Message 191 by New Cat's Eye
04-16-2007 3:33 PM


Catholic Scientist writes:

You think your morality is unchangeable?

Pretty much. Isn't that what the idea of "conscience" is all about? A stabilizing influence that tells you what you know deep down is right and wrong?

Isn't the very idea that your conscience is "deep down" an indication that it doesn't change with every flavour-of-the-month?

I think your actions can change. But isn't your "personal morality" more about how you feel about your actions?


Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation.
Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC
This message is a reply to:
 Message 191 by New Cat's Eye, posted 04-16-2007 3:33 PM New Cat's Eye has not yet responded

  
nator
Member (Idle past 279 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 193 of 196 (395464)
04-16-2007 4:58 PM
Reply to: Message 189 by New Cat's Eye
04-16-2007 1:44 PM


Re: Talkin' 'bout my morality...
I don't twist what you say. I am using the logical argument called reductio ad absurdum. If you don't think that your claim leads to the conclusion I've come to, then explain to me how they don't.

I should think that you might expect to be challenged on your claims at a debate forum. You have, however, often made claims here and then refused to defend them.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 189 by New Cat's Eye, posted 04-16-2007 1:44 PM New Cat's Eye has not yet responded

    
Neutralmind
Member (Idle past 4233 days)
Posts: 183
From: Finland
Joined: 06-08-2006


Message 194 of 196 (395765)
04-17-2007 8:19 PM


Crashfrog and Chiroptera up for a great debate?
Would Crashfrog and Chiroptera willing to have a great debate with me on this same subject?

{I have posted this "Great Debate" proposal at the "Proposed New (Great Debate) Topics" topic, at message 35. Please discuss any possible "GD" topic there and NOT here. - Adminnemooseus}

Edited by Adminnemooseus, : See above.

Edited by Adminnemooseus, : No reason given.


Replies to this message:
 Message 195 by crashfrog, posted 04-19-2007 5:54 PM Neutralmind has not yet responded

    
crashfrog
Inactive Member


Message 195 of 196 (396352)
04-19-2007 5:54 PM
Reply to: Message 194 by Neutralmind
04-17-2007 8:19 PM


Re: Crashfrog and Chiroptera up for a great debate?
Content deleted - Take it to the topic cited in the red text - Adminnemooseus

Edited by Adminnemooseus, : See above.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 194 by Neutralmind, posted 04-17-2007 8:19 PM Neutralmind has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 196 by Adminnemooseus, posted 04-19-2007 6:05 PM crashfrog has not yet responded

  
RewPrev1
...
9101112
13
14Next
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2018 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.0 Beta
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2019