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Author Topic:   Can science say anything about a Creator God?
Stile
Member
Posts: 4295
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004


Message 83 of 506 (694732)
03-27-2013 2:28 PM
Reply to: Message 78 by designtheorist
03-27-2013 1:56 PM


Whoopa Science Style
designtheorist writes:
You may also say, if the fine-tuning involves 20 parameters and the universe falls apart if the value of those parameters is off by 1%, then that is extreme fine-tuning and the universe has to be the result of an intelligent Creator.
That seems like a silly thing to say if we're going through this scientifically.
Let's assume your claim is true, scientifically.
Let's assume that "the fine-tuning involves 20 parameters and the universe falls apart if the value of those parameters is off by 1%"
This does not imply that the universe has to be the result of an intelligent Creator, that is merely one possibility.
It actually scientifically implies that the universe is the result of a fixed system.
  • It is a possibility that this fixed system is entirely natural and required no Creator at all through some sort of looping universe
  • It is a possibility that this fixed system is entirely natural and required no Creator at all through some sort of physical inevitability
  • It is a possibility that this fixed system is entirely natural and required no Creator at all through some sort of alternate dimension
  • It is a possibility that this fixed system is entirely natural and required no Creator at all through some sort of reaction between multiple alternate dimensions
  • It is a possibility that this fixed system did require a Creator, but that Creator was stupid and basically only had to trip and fall on the "go" button... creating this universe by accident.
  • It is a possibility that this fixed system did require an intelligent Creator (who could be the Christian God, but maybe Islam or Wiccan or Roman or Greek or...)
  • It is a possibility that this fixed system did require an intelligent Creator... who died shortly after creating the universe.
  • It is a possibility that this fixed system required multiple intelligent Creators.
    All 8 of those are possibilities.
    2 of them (the first two) do not require anything more than what we see in front of us right now, and are therefore favoured by Occam's razor.
    Only one (the sixth one) favours the Christian religion... and even then it's one of many.
    1/8 for the Creator God choice = 12.5%
    1/5 of that just from what I listed (probably worse odds...) to get to the Christian Creator God = 2.5%
    So, yes, given a fine-tuned universe assumption, science can say something about a Creator Christian God... it is then 97.5% likely that this God does not exist.

  • This message is a reply to:
     Message 78 by designtheorist, posted 03-27-2013 1:56 PM designtheorist has not replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 84 by JonF, posted 03-27-2013 2:38 PM Stile has replied

      
    Stile
    Member
    Posts: 4295
    From: Ontario, Canada
    Joined: 12-02-2004


    Message 86 of 506 (694736)
    03-27-2013 2:53 PM
    Reply to: Message 84 by JonF
    03-27-2013 2:38 PM


    Re: Whoopa Science Style
    JonF writes:
    That conclusion requires some hidden assumptions about probability distributions. My position is that nobody can produce a meaningful observation-based probability argument for or against the Goddidit hypothesis.
    I whole-heartedly agree.
    I just explained it more colourfully
    (If anyone can understand why my values are bogus, they should be able to apply the same conceptual idea to see why any other value-based probability would be bogus).
    Edited by Stile, : These are not the edits you're looking for

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 84 by JonF, posted 03-27-2013 2:38 PM JonF has not replied

      
    Stile
    Member
    Posts: 4295
    From: Ontario, Canada
    Joined: 12-02-2004


    (2)
    Message 112 of 506 (694779)
    03-28-2013 11:47 AM
    Reply to: Message 99 by designtheorist
    03-28-2013 12:09 AM


    Connect the dots
    designtheorist writes:
    My alternate hypothesis is that the universe shows signs of an intelligent Creator if the fine-tuning is extreme and not likely the result of pure chance.
    But even if fine-tuning is correct, this doesn't lend significant support to the idea of an intelligent Creator.
    The universe can be fine-tuned and have no creator at all (intelligent or otherwise).
    Therefore, including "intelligent Creator" in your alternative hypothesis about fine-tuning would be misleading and wrong.
    Therefore, it's not scientific.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 99 by designtheorist, posted 03-28-2013 12:09 AM designtheorist has not replied

      
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