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Author Topic:   Belief in God is scientific.
Tangle
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Posts: 6954
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 5.1


(3)
Message 8 of 262 (695127)
04-03-2013 10:18 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by divermike1974
04-03-2013 3:57 AM


divermike1974 writes:

My brain is a stand alone version of the most complex thing in the known universe.

Then a chimp's brain is maybe the second most complex thing in the known universe. What does that tell us?

My question is why isn't the human belief in God classed as scientific?

The scientific method is designed with the specific purpose of removing human biases - beliefs, opinions, custom and practices and prejudices - from the problem.

Humans are not objective, they're really easily fooled by simple things and they are capable of believing almost anything. In order to resolve what is fantasy from what is reality, science insists on evidence. The fact that people are prone to irrational beliefs is the reason we have science.

And it's been proved to be far and away the best method of making sense of reality.


Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by divermike1974, posted 04-03-2013 3:57 AM divermike1974 has responded

Replies to this message:
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Tangle
Member
Posts: 6954
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 113 of 262 (695318)
04-04-2013 2:41 PM
Reply to: Message 109 by mike the wiz
04-04-2013 2:20 PM


Re: faith is not needed
Mike the Wiz writes:

It should also be pointed out that there are people with an education, critical thinking skills and honesty, that are creationist, understand evolution and do not accept it as, "fact". You can find a number of them at Creation.com, I can think of a few PHDs off hand, such as Jonathan Sarfati,

This is something that interests me - but maybe it needs a different thread - why otherwise sane people believe insane things.

Of course, Sartfati may not be sane - I have no idea, a lot of very good chess players are bonkers - but assuming he is, he's a chemist which gives him no credentials to write books on evolution (or rather books about why evoution is false.)

Having a PhD in chemistry also says nothing about his critical thinking skills, but believing that the bible is literally true and that the earth is 6000 years old tells us everything we need to know about them.


Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

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Tangle
Member
Posts: 6954
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 123 of 262 (695409)
04-05-2013 6:31 AM
Reply to: Message 120 by Ossat
04-05-2013 5:52 AM


Ossat writes:

Would you say you don't need any faith to accept the theory of evolution? you can read this website or any other, or any book. That alone is not evidence at all, you are just believing in what other people is writing, you are basically having faith in them

Reading the books and listening to experts is just a shortcut to knowledge. You can, if you wish visit the museums where the fossils are help, dig a few up yourself down on the bit of beach where I live, perform a few experiments breading pigeons and bacteria and even do your own genetic analysis of the animals that science says are our relatives.

You see, Evolutionary Theory is a science, not a belief; it's backed by huge quantities of evidence that anyone can see and test.

It's quicker though, to read the books.


Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

This message is a reply to:
 Message 120 by Ossat, posted 04-05-2013 5:52 AM Ossat has responded

Replies to this message:
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Tangle
Member
Posts: 6954
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 5.1


(1)
Message 131 of 262 (695423)
04-05-2013 9:25 AM
Reply to: Message 125 by Ossat
04-05-2013 8:01 AM


Ossat writes:

What you read of a book and listen from an expert has necessarily to be right?

Pretty much, yes - depending of course on the book and the expert.

If your doctor tells you that he's sent the lump he took out of your testicle to the lab and it's confirmed his earlier diagnosis of cancer, do you believe him or do you tell him he's making it up because he's read a book and listened to an expert?

Do you think that when the next satellite gets put into space, it'll be done from first principles or do you think the designer looked up the trajectory based on what they already know?

I suspect you reserve your scepticism for evolutionary science only don't you?

Yeah the experimentation sounds more like science to me... could you give an example of what research have you done and what made you come to a conclusion that supports evolution?

I was convinced by being taught it, just like I was happy to 'believe' Ohms Law. But I know that I can test both if I need too. So can you.


Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

This message is a reply to:
 Message 125 by Ossat, posted 04-05-2013 8:01 AM Ossat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 198 by Ossat, posted 04-09-2013 8:18 AM Tangle has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 6954
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 5.1


(1)
Message 140 of 262 (695449)
04-05-2013 11:09 AM
Reply to: Message 134 by Ossat
04-05-2013 10:42 AM


Re: Abiogenesis is not the theory of evolution
Ossat writes:

Thanks for your correction but for the evolution theory to be true the abiogenesis needs to be true as well, because the first is based on the second. I wont't deal with the flaws of evolution at this point. I just wanted to point that not even origen of life is proven by science. abiogenesis is just an attempt to try to explain how life appeared, like panspermia, it's just hard core mental gymnastics to come up with explanations on how life could have appeared by itself

It sometimes takes a while for new people here to realise that they have to be quite careful about what they say, because we're an argumentative bunch and will pick at things that aren't accurate.

It's annoying but necessary to get your arguments organised because at the moment you're saying a number of things that will make umpteen people want to jump on you for an easy kill.

The way simple organisms developed into more complex ones is called evolution. The way the simple organisms got here in the first place is a totally different issue. [That is an inexact statement which would ordinarily get me criticised but it'll do for now.]

The reason is that evolution happens regardless of how first life started. You can accept evolution and deny abiogenesis (the idea that life started here from chemical beginnings.) God could have planted life here, then buggered off to do something else. It could have come here from another planet by meteor or have been left here by aliens.

The two processes need to be separated in your mind - and your arguments.

The other thing to be wary of is that many things that "are hard to get your head around" are also true. Like my wife and quantum mechanics.

Edited by Tangle, : spellin'


Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

This message is a reply to:
 Message 134 by Ossat, posted 04-05-2013 10:42 AM Ossat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 249 by Ossat, posted 04-12-2013 5:43 AM Tangle has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 6954
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 157 of 262 (695587)
04-08-2013 5:37 AM
Reply to: Message 156 by divermike1974
04-08-2013 5:22 AM


divermike1974 writes:

The human brain contrary to what some of you say IS the most complex thing in the known universe and the vast majority of those brains (people) believe in some form of God, so why isn't that overwhelming majority taken seriously from a scientific point of view as 'evidence' for God?

One reason is that the human brain's overwhelming task is to manage the body's activities, just to keep it alive. That's why a chimp's brain is only marginally less 'complex' (whatever the hell that means) than a human's and in many respects more so.

As far as I know chimps don't believe in God so maybe you should add them to your atheist count. Now, how about cetaceans? They're pretty damn complex too.


Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

This message is a reply to:
 Message 156 by divermike1974, posted 04-08-2013 5:22 AM divermike1974 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 159 by divermike1974, posted 04-08-2013 5:56 AM Tangle has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 6954
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 161 of 262 (695591)
04-08-2013 6:03 AM
Reply to: Message 159 by divermike1974
04-08-2013 5:56 AM


divermike1974 writes:

How the heck do you know what a chimpanzee thinks?

Well it's just a stab in the dark really, I'd say the null hypothesis was that chimps don't believe in god wouldn't you?


Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

This message is a reply to:
 Message 159 by divermike1974, posted 04-08-2013 5:56 AM divermike1974 has responded

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Tangle
Member
Posts: 6954
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 5.1


(6)
Message 185 of 262 (695675)
04-08-2013 4:31 PM


Millions of people buy a lottery ticket every week and the same millions that didn't win last week will buy one next week.

This can only mean that millions of people think that one day they'll win the lottery. So millions of people are wrong. Yet millions of people can't be wrong because they're the most complex things in the universe.

Solve for x.


Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

Replies to this message:
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 Message 190 by divermike1974, posted 04-09-2013 3:57 AM Tangle has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 6954
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 192 of 262 (695747)
04-09-2013 5:24 AM
Reply to: Message 190 by divermike1974
04-09-2013 3:57 AM


divermike1974 writes:

wow you don't have much real life experience do you?

Wow, you don't know how to behave do you?

People do the lottery for the chance to win not because they expect to win.

Is that why they pray to God too? The chance to get to heaven, to have their cancer cured? Because people do actually win the lottery - it's real and it pays out.

Belief in the lottery doesn't take much effort - believing that you'll ever win it is very nearly as big a delusion as belief in a God. People do the lottery because they believe that they can win it - period. They can't. [With an error rate of 1 in 14 million, for the UK lottery.]

Think about it, do you really think people enter the lottery because they think they are going to win, or are they really hoping that they are going to win?

Think about it. If they didn't think they could win why would they hand over their cash?

I don't think you can class expecting to win the lottery as a popular fallacy millions of people don't do it expecting to win.

They don't expect to win, they're not total morons - but they think that they can win. They can't, it is a popular fallacy.


Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

This message is a reply to:
 Message 190 by divermike1974, posted 04-09-2013 3:57 AM divermike1974 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 193 by divermike1974, posted 04-09-2013 5:35 AM Tangle has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 6954
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 194 of 262 (695750)
04-09-2013 6:05 AM
Reply to: Message 193 by divermike1974
04-09-2013 5:35 AM


Mate, it IS a popular fallacy for an individual to think that they can win the lottery - because they very, very obviously can't.

[The error rate in that statement is 1 in 14 million for the UK.]


Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

This message is a reply to:
 Message 193 by divermike1974, posted 04-09-2013 5:35 AM divermike1974 has not yet responded

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 Message 195 by Pressie, posted 04-09-2013 6:52 AM Tangle has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 6954
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 196 of 262 (695755)
04-09-2013 6:55 AM
Reply to: Message 195 by Pressie
04-09-2013 6:52 AM


Pressie writes:

Someone can and will win it every now and then. Hopefully it will be me next time around!

Yup, that's how the fallacy works.
[and very successfully too]


Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

This message is a reply to:
 Message 195 by Pressie, posted 04-09-2013 6:52 AM Pressie has responded

Replies to this message:
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Tangle
Member
Posts: 6954
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 5.1


(1)
Message 200 of 262 (695771)
04-09-2013 8:51 AM
Reply to: Message 198 by Ossat
04-09-2013 8:18 AM


Ossat writes:

Of course experience helps in accuracy, not argument against this

But when it comes to evolutionary ......

Like I said, you reserve your scientific scepticism for evolutionary theory - now be honest, the ONLY reason you do that is because it contradicts a religious belief that you have isn't it?

You are happy to 'believe' what you were taught. You are not the only one who believes things, everybody does, but many don't want to recognize that they consider something to be true as long as they believe in it, rather than have a real evidence to support their theories

I am happy to 'believe' what I am taught when it is standard and settled science and I'm being told it by someone that I have a reason to trust. If I am in any doubt, what is being taught can be checked by looking at the evidence for myself [which I have done, have you?].

That's why it's called science; it's backed by evidence.

random quote:

The Theory of Evolution is the central organizing theory of biology...... It is no more controversial in scientific circles than gravity or electricity is. . . . . There is no scientific dispute that evolution has occurred and continues to occur; this is why evolution is regarded as a scientific fact.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

This message is a reply to:
 Message 198 by Ossat, posted 04-09-2013 8:18 AM Ossat has not yet responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 6954
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 212 of 262 (695892)
04-10-2013 4:17 AM
Reply to: Message 211 by divermike1974
04-10-2013 4:00 AM


Re: No need for scripture.
how can belief not be classed as a scientific quantity?

Well of course you can attempt to measure beliefs and categorise them into their bewildering miscellany.

That would be a scientific activity.

Your mistake is in thinking that simply because people believe in something that it therefore exists. That is obviously an error in critical thinking.


Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

This message is a reply to:
 Message 211 by divermike1974, posted 04-10-2013 4:00 AM divermike1974 has not yet responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 6954
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 232 of 262 (695947)
04-10-2013 2:08 PM
Reply to: Message 227 by divermike1974
04-10-2013 1:11 PM


Re: belief
divermike writes:

Humanity would have failed long ago it it didn't believe 'it could do it'

How much belief do you think it would take for you to win the lottery?
I serously doubt that you think it might change the odds. Or do you?


Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

This message is a reply to:
 Message 227 by divermike1974, posted 04-10-2013 1:11 PM divermike1974 has not yet responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 6954
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 5.1


(2)
Message 248 of 262 (696110)
04-12-2013 5:16 AM
Reply to: Message 247 by Ossat
04-12-2013 5:14 AM


I agree, some of the variety is not planned, but like I said, not cumulative changes will ever create new species, nor they have done in the past, as evolutionists think

Publish your evidence and collect your Nobel prize.


Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

This message is a reply to:
 Message 247 by Ossat, posted 04-12-2013 5:14 AM Ossat has not yet responded

  
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