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Author | Topic: Bible Teachings or Traditions of Men? | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
NoNukes Inactive Member |
silly dupe..
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) I would say here something that was heard from an ecclesiastic of the most eminent degree; ‘That the intention of the Holy Ghost is to teach us how one goes to heaven, not how the heaven goes.’ Galileo Galilei 1615. If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass
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NoNukes Inactive Member |
I think the best answer is that the Bible (the only document that we can rely on for information about God/Jesus) is unreliable. I hope that this is not the entire thrust of the discussion here because I don't think the Bible's reliability is central to the question raised by the OP. In fact, asserting unreliability in this way suggests that the questioner does not really care about the OP's question. What is being asked here is whether there are Bible verses that support specific doctrine. If the Bible is inconsistent on that doctrine, that would be of interest, but a general denial that the Bible is often correct would seem beside the point. After all, this is not the science section. Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) I would say here something that was heard from an ecclesiastic of the most eminent degree; ‘That the intention of the Holy Ghost is to teach us how one goes to heaven, not how the heaven goes.’ Galileo Galilei 1615. If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass
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NoNukes Inactive Member |
Faith,
What I presented gives enough information for you to understand the point. It's rather odd to call so many references "cherry picking" but if it is then you ought to be able to find many verses that say something different than those say. Have at it. There is quite a bit to go through. The question I would have is how should the discussion move from here? Someone, and I'm not saying it should be you or that it should be Alter2Ego, preferably someone who has a well defined take on Trinity or not Trinity probably should take a first step at providing an argument in their own words. I know that Alter2Ego is a hostile audience, but this seems like an open invitation to spread the good Word. Surely that's not something a Christian finds easy to resist.
but if it is then you ought to be able to find many verses that say something different than those say. This part of your request seems unfair though. Alter2Ego is saying that the Bible does not support the Trinity doctrine. If that is right, then there may well not be any verses to cite. Edited by NoNukes, : address looking for contrary verses.Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) I would say here something that was heard from an ecclesiastic of the most eminent degree; ‘That the intention of the Holy Ghost is to teach us how one goes to heaven, not how the heaven goes.’ Galileo Galilei 1615. If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass
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NoNukes Inactive Member |
Should I pursue their lead or focus on making my own case for the Trinity or what do you suggest? Well, since you asked... It looks like purpledawn is taking a lead on this. I'd be more inclined to respond to her than to someone with no "skin" in the game. GDR and purpledawn also seem more willing to pick up on things without requiring a lot of exposition on your part. Maybe Alter2Ego will pick up on the idea of doing some homework if he/she is serious about the discussion. Or just give your own favorite arguments. Just suggestions. I don't have a well formed take on this issue. The churches I have attended have all been critical of denominations that rejected the Trinity, but I've always considered other aspects of Christianity to be more vital. If I had some doubts whether someone who claimed to be Christian was not, I don't think that persons views on the Trinity would be among the top ten things I'd investigate. But I am interested in the topic.Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) I would say here something that was heard from an ecclesiastic of the most eminent degree; ‘That the intention of the Holy Ghost is to teach us how one goes to heaven, not how the heaven goes.’ Galileo Galilei 1615. If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass
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NoNukes Inactive Member
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I will then present a counter-argument for why the verses are not with reference to trinity. That's one way this thread can work. It's also a way that the thread can reach nearly 100 posts with very little being discussed. You are the thread proposer, and you are acknowledging that you find the verses that Faith cites wanting. So why wait to counter punch? Why is the onus on everyone else to drive your thread? Why don't you present an argument that the verses generally used to defend the Trinity do not do so. I don't think any of us believe that you are completely ignorant of the usual arguments. Purpledawn is at least presenting some arguments. Otherwise, perhaps it's nearly time to ask Percy to pipe us out. Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) I would say here something that was heard from an ecclesiastic of the most eminent degree; ‘That the intention of the Holy Ghost is to teach us how one goes to heaven, not how the heaven goes.’ Galileo Galilei 1615. If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass
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NoNukes Inactive Member
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If I were to do what you are not suggesting, that would amount to preaching. Not only that, I would have to present several counter-arguments for each verse of scripture that Trinitarians often use, because they do not all focus on the same words within the same verse. They use different parts of the same verse and come up with entirely different reasons for why the verse is talking "trinity." The above sound like excuses. I don't see anything wrong with advocating your position, and doing so would not be preaching. And you are not obligated to address every verse or every possible position. The web is littered with attacks and defenses of Trinity doctrine. It would seem that a reader would better served with ignoring this thread and simply looking at those sources.Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) I would say here something that was heard from an ecclesiastic of the most eminent degree; ‘That the intention of the Holy Ghost is to teach us how one goes to heaven, not how the heaven goes.’ Galileo Galilei 1615. If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass
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NoNukes Inactive Member |
fact that you evaded my questions in that thread, and then insulted me by informing me that I am a buffoon. I think a review of the thread would show a number of posts by me with arguments backing up my position to which you have never responded. And I appreciate your characterization of my statements of your buffoonery as "informing". Thank you.
Of course you don't see anything wrong with me wasting my time making counter-arguments to a third-party source that is not even here to counter back. I did not tell you to address Faith's source. And perhaps if you were not focused on your own navel, you might have noticed that I also suggested to Faith that her approach was not the best. I instead suggested that you already know the major arguments for the Trinity and that you might give us some indication of your arguments against those. Your reading comprehension is off the hook today.Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) I would say here something that was heard from an ecclesiastic of the most eminent degree; ‘That the intention of the Holy Ghost is to teach us how one goes to heaven, not how the heaven goes.’ Galileo Galilei 1615. If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass
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NoNukes Inactive Member |
GDR,
I have a comment question about your citing of these verses.
quote: Faith has said that the important point here is Jesus' Divinity. These verses certainly speak to the divinity of the son of man, but are they supported of the doctrine of Trinity. These verses speak of the Ancient One giving authority to the son of man. They don't imply that Jesus is One with the Ancient One. The Trinity as I understand it involves a real separation of three entities that are also one in some way. The verses in the Bible that talk about the relationship between separate entities are very explicit and I would expect that Christians in general would have no problem with them, and that most Christians would have no problem with the Divinity of Christ. These concepts are common between Trinitarians and at least some non-Trinitarians. On the other hand, the verses that refer to a single underlying God who is all three aspects generally seem far less clear. I'll pick one verse that may or may not be representative:
quote: This is interpreted as saying that Jesus is God, but is that the best interpretation? Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) I would say here something that was heard from an ecclesiastic of the most eminent degree; ‘That the intention of the Holy Ghost is to teach us how one goes to heaven, not how the heaven goes.’ Galileo Galilei 1615. If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass
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NoNukes Inactive Member |
QUESTION #3 to FAITH: Isn't it true that Jesus Christ's life came to an end while he was dead for three days? YES or NO? QUESTION #4 to FAITH: Did Jesus Christ's continue to "exist through all time" during the three days that his life ceased? YES or NO? These are fairly difficult questions to answer with a yes or no. To question three, I'd have to answer yes with some qualification. Jesus' life did continue after it "ended" which is a strange thing to happen, and something that should not be obscured simply because you have requested a one word answer. The answer to the second question is that yes Christ did continue to exist during those three days. I Peter 3:18-19 tells of Jesus preaching to "the spirits in prison" during that period. Further, I think you stretch the dictionary definition f eternal to the breaking point. Dictionaries are not perfect and it makes little sense to ask if something is eternal over a three day period? At most Jesus life might be said to have stopped at the cross, but since Jesus was alive after that event, we cannot say that his life ended at that point. Your questions is thought provoking, but what you are really asking is whether Jesus death and subsequent resurrection prove that Jesus was just a man. I think the answer to that question is self evident. Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) I would say here something that was heard from an ecclesiastic of the most eminent degree; ‘That the intention of the Holy Ghost is to teach us how one goes to heaven, not how the heaven goes.’ Galileo Galilei 1615. If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass
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NoNukes Inactive Member |
but also the majority of Christians disagree with your understanding of the the Bible too. (As shown to you here.) I think you are forgetting the 'No True Scottsman' argument. If you disagree with Faith regarding the Trinity or anything else she holds to be doctrinal then you aren't a Christian. Now let's take the poll among the people who Faith accepts as being Christians, a group which overlaps only partially with the group of people who accept Jesus as their Lord and Saviour, repent of their sins, and who try to follow Christ's example, and you'll find 100% agreement. Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) I would say here something that was heard from an ecclesiastic of the most eminent degree; ‘That the intention of the Holy Ghost is to teach us how one goes to heaven, not how the heaven goes.’ Galileo Galilei 1615. If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass
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NoNukes Inactive Member |
That's not true. Your definition of eternal is not having an end. You are equating death to an end, but in Jesus' case his death was not an end. Therefore, that he died does not disqualify him from being eternal. Nicely said. But I wonder if even this statement can make the slightest impact.
That same verse is also used as Biblical support for hell. What do you think the "imprisoned spirits" is referring to? Yes, but what kind of 'Hell' does this verse describe. It's a place that would have been the abode of the spirits of Abraham, Moses, and David. Of all of the righteous men of the Old Testament, only Elijah is said to have escaped going there.Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) I would say here something that was heard from an ecclesiastic of the most eminent degree; ‘That the intention of the Holy Ghost is to teach us how one goes to heaven, not how the heaven goes.’ Galileo Galilei 1615. If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass
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NoNukes Inactive Member |
It's a place that would have been the abode of the spirits of Abraham, Moses, and David. Of all of the righteous men of the Old Testament, only Elijah is said to have escaped going there. I'm not familiar with what you're referring to. Rigthly so, because I mixed up the scriptures. The Old Testament guys (good and bad) all went to 'sheol' when they died. Elijah is the only one I am aware of who is described as being lifted up to heaven at the end of his earthly life without ever being dead or buried.Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) I would say here something that was heard from an ecclesiastic of the most eminent degree; ‘That the intention of the Holy Ghost is to teach us how one goes to heaven, not how the heaven goes.’ Galileo Galilei 1615. If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass
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NoNukes Inactive Member |
So, what are the essentials of Christian belief? Do they look anything like the Apostle's Creed? Faith has given you her answer. Regarding the Apostle's Creed, I am not convinced that all of it is essential. Let's recall that there were several centuries of Christians before the Creed just as there were centuries of Christians before there was an inerrant or a any other kind of Bible. That does not make the post ressurection scriptures of no importance. The described experiences of actually operating a church and of a converted man trying to follow Christ's teachings are extremely valuable. Neither am I convinced that the Apostle's Creed alone is sufficient. In fact, I am convinced otherwise. The Apostle's Creed is an important affirmation of belief and nothing more. My position is that the more modern is the added doctrine the more skeptical Christians should be that the doctrine is essential or even Bible based. Yes the Catholic Church did add a bunch of stuff of I find dubious and the Reformers did peel some of that away. But the reformers also added more dubious stuff themselves. One definition of 'essential' is what beliefs and actions must you lack for Jesus to respond 'I never knew you' in response to your cries of Lord, Lord. There is no doubt in my mind that Faith's list both overstates and leaves off elements of these essentials. The Apostle's Creed is not complete in that regard, but it is harder to make the case that it overstates in a significant way. As far as the Trinity is concerned, my belief is that you have only to do what Matthew 28:18-20 instructs Christians to do.
quote: Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) I would say here something that was heard from an ecclesiastic of the most eminent degree; ‘That the intention of the Holy Ghost is to teach us how one goes to heaven, not how the heaven goes.’ Galileo Galilei 1615. If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass
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NoNukes Inactive Member |
Your position is the exact opposite of objective. Objectivity implies consensus. Objective does not imply correctness or a consensus about correctness, merely a consensus about what the standard predicts. Objective implies that everyone applying the standard would reach similar results. I think Faith's criteria do meet that definition.
....in an attempt to exclude most people from the poll. You're trying to win the election by only allowing people who agree with you to vote. She's excluded many Christians from the polls. Yes. I agree with this. Only true Scotsmen even get ballots.Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) I would say here something that was heard from an ecclesiastic of the most eminent degree; ‘That the intention of the Holy Ghost is to teach us how one goes to heaven, not how the heaven goes.’ Galileo Galilei 1615. If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass
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NoNukes Inactive Member |
Objective implies that everyone applying the standard would reach similar results. Do Muslims and Buddhists agree with Faith's standard? Do YEC's agree with the scientific standards for carbon dating? Is that question even relevant to whether those standards are objective? It is not necessary that standard be accepted or correct for the standard to be objective. If a Muslim and a ringo applied Faith's standard, then given enough facts they would largely agree on who met the standard and who did not. That's the only consensus that objectivity requires. Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) I would say here something that was heard from an ecclesiastic of the most eminent degree; ‘That the intention of the Holy Ghost is to teach us how one goes to heaven, not how the heaven goes.’ Galileo Galilei 1615. If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass
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