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Author Topic:   Bible Teachings or Traditions of Men?
ringo
Member
Posts: 17682
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.1


(2)
Message 316 of 385 (697025)
04-20-2013 1:40 PM
Reply to: Message 315 by Stile
04-20-2013 1:14 PM


Re: The Fallacy of the "No True Scotsman" Fallacy
Stile writes:

I think NoNukes's point is that Faith's standard taken as is, from Faith, is an objective standard in the sense that anyone can apply Faith's standard to achieve the same results that Faith is getting.


Sure. And we can apply creationist standards to get the same results that creationists are getting. I don't think it's very useful to equate internal consistency with objectivity.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 315 by Stile, posted 04-20-2013 1:14 PM Stile has acknowledged this reply

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 33934
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


(1)
Message 317 of 385 (697030)
04-20-2013 3:10 PM


We need to stop the OFF TOPIC posts in this thread
Purpledawn has posted an objection to this thread's going so far off topic in the Discussion Problems thread and she's right.

I've been posting a notice on some of my latest posts that I won't respond to answers in this thread.


Replies to this message:
 Message 318 by GDR, posted 04-20-2013 5:29 PM Faith has responded

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 5052
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 318 of 385 (697040)
04-20-2013 5:29 PM
Reply to: Message 317 by Faith
04-20-2013 3:10 PM


Re: We need to stop the OFF TOPIC posts in this thread
Faith writes:

Purpledawn has posted an objection to this thread's going so far off topic in the Discussion Problems thread and she's right.
I've been posting a notice on some of my latest posts that I won't respond to answers in this thread.

It is not off topic IMHO. The questions in the OP relate to hell and the trinity and understood from the Bible. In order to understand the answers we have to determine how we are to understand the Bible in general. in order to even have the discussion.


He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 317 by Faith, posted 04-20-2013 3:10 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 319 by Faith, posted 04-21-2013 5:10 AM GDR has not yet responded
 Message 320 by purpledawn, posted 04-21-2013 7:33 AM GDR has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 33934
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


(1)
Message 319 of 385 (697085)
04-21-2013 5:10 AM
Reply to: Message 318 by GDR
04-20-2013 5:29 PM


Re: We need to stop the OFF TOPIC posts in this thread
It is not off topic IMHO. The questions in the OP relate to hell and the trinity and understood from the Bible. In order to understand the answers we have to determine how we are to understand the Bible in general. in order to even have the discussion.

Maybe PD will contribute her answer to you, but mine is that the question is straightforward, are the Trinity and hell derived from the Bible or not? If we have to take into account all the ways the Bible can be understood and interpreted we'll be here forever.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 318 by GDR, posted 04-20-2013 5:29 PM GDR has not yet responded

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 1802 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 320 of 385 (697090)
04-21-2013 7:33 AM
Reply to: Message 318 by GDR
04-20-2013 5:29 PM


Re: We need to stop the OFF TOPIC posts in this thread
I agree with Faith. To try for an understanding of how we are to understand the Bible in general before proceeding would be fruitless.

This is my personal general opinion.

When becoming a member of EvC, there are no prerequisite levels of knowledge, experiences, or beliefs. The membership probably covers all the levels.

Debating on the internet isn't really geared towards mutual understanding. Some debaters (both sides) are rather hostile to accepting or even considering new ideas.

We've seen on EvC that threads do not normally end with opposing sides coming to a mutual understanding.

That is why it is important to present the position one is taking concerning the topic of debate and provide support (facts and logic) for that position. Since this is a debate forum there will be counter arguments that one will need to counter with more facts and reasoning.

Even among those who study the Bible, there are differences of opinion concerning interpretation and understanding; which is why debaters (both sides) should provide support for how they are interpreting the scriptures so the opposition can understand how their opponent came to their conclusion.

With all the varieties of religion out there, it isn't really practical in this setting to try and determine how we are to understand the Bible in general before proceeding with a debate. Each is defending their own position; so odds are, a mutual agreement would not be reached or would quickly disappear in the next debate.

The topic is very clearly about Biblical support for the Doctrines of the Trinity and Hell.

Intellectually-honest and intellectually-dishonest debate tactics


This message is a reply to:
 Message 318 by GDR, posted 04-20-2013 5:29 PM GDR has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 321 by GDR, posted 04-21-2013 6:15 PM purpledawn has responded

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 5052
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 321 of 385 (697122)
04-21-2013 6:15 PM
Reply to: Message 320 by purpledawn
04-21-2013 7:33 AM


Re: We need to stop the OFF TOPIC posts in this thread
OK The problem is though that if you try and understand either hell or the trinity from Faith's perspective it all boils down to picking what appear to be relevant verses and then saying that there is your answer.

It is my contention that the Bible is to be read as a narrative, (of course one which includes all sorts of narratives within the big story), and as a result you come at it from a very different angle. In my view one or two verses wouldn't be considered conclusive.

It is like the discussion of Thomas saying saying My Lord and my God. By Faith's reading that would be conclusive. Jesus is God whereas I would understand Christ's deity by working through the Gospels and then referencing what Jesus said with the OT to sort out just what He meant. As a result both Faith and I see Jesus as God in some sense but we actually mean slightly different things by that.

By the way, I realize that to a degree I am simplifying Faith's position but I contend that essentially it is correct.

At any rate there really wasn't much further we could go with the discussion anyway.

Thanks


He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 320 by purpledawn, posted 04-21-2013 7:33 AM purpledawn has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 325 by purpledawn, posted 04-22-2013 8:58 AM GDR has not yet responded

  
Alter2Ego
Member (Idle past 2164 days)
Posts: 72
From: Los Angeles, California
Joined: 04-06-2013


Message 322 of 385 (697127)
04-21-2013 7:21 PM
Reply to: Message 298 by purpledawn
04-19-2013 7:33 AM


Re: Eternal Beings
quote:
ALTER2EGO:
You have been told several times that an eternal person cannot die aka their life cannot end.

PURPLE DAWN:
But you still haven't shown support for your rules on eternal beings. Talk about the same wash, rinse, and repeat?

Our definition of eternal, does not constitute known rules of existence for eternal beings. It's just how we use the word eternal.

To answer your question concerning Jesus, you need to answer my question on what constitutes death for an eternal being and provide support? I have asked twice: Message 218 and Message 234

Do eternal beings rely on oxygen, blood flow, nutrition, etc. to sustain their life??? We know humans need those things, but do eternal beings??

That's why I asked, where's your support that an eternal being who has taken human form, will cease being eternal because the human form died and the eternal being continued?



ALTER2EGO -to- PURPLEDAWN:
Right. That's what you keep doing: wash, rinse, and repeat. You've asked me the same question repeatedly, and I keep giving you the same answer, along with definitions from the dictionary as to the meaning of the word "eternal."

DEFINITION OF "ETERNAL": "Eternal means not having a beginning or an end."
http://www.yourdictionary.com/eternal

QUESTION #3 to PURPLE DAWN: The dictionary says one who is eternal can have no end to his/her life. Was Jesus alive or did his life end during the three days the Bible says he was dead? YES or NO?

DEFINITION OF "ETERNAL": "without beginning or end; existing through all time; everlasting" (Source: Webster's New World College Dictionary)

QUESTION #4 to PURPLE DAWN: The dictionary says one who is eternal must exist through all time. Did Jesus continue to exist as a living being during the three days that the Bible says he was dead? YES or NO?

Just so you know, if you come back with the same wash, rinse, and repeat about Jesus being eternal and that therefore the rules of eternity do not apply to him, you will get the same response from me, as demonstrated above.


"That people may know that you, whose name is JEHOVAH, you alone are the Most High over all the earth." (Psalms 83:18)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 298 by purpledawn, posted 04-19-2013 7:33 AM purpledawn has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 328 by ringo, posted 04-24-2013 12:27 PM Alter2Ego has responded

  
Alter2Ego
Member (Idle past 2164 days)
Posts: 72
From: Los Angeles, California
Joined: 04-06-2013


Message 323 of 385 (697129)
04-21-2013 7:53 PM
Reply to: Message 286 by New Cat's Eye
04-18-2013 10:59 PM


Re: Eternal Beings
quote:
ALTER2EGO to PURPLE DAWN:
You have been told several times that an eternal person cannot die aka their life cannot end.

CATHOLIC SCIENTIST:
And you've ignored my explanation that Jesus did not end when he died.

ALTER2EGO to PURPLE DAWN:
So I say again, an eternal person cannot die and therefore, the fact that Jesus Christ died is evidence that he was not eternal from the get-go.

CATHOLIC SCIENTIST:
Repeating yourself doesn't make it true. You haven't addressed my arguments that proves you wrong, you just say it again as if you're ignoring me.



ALTER2EGO -to- CATHOLIC SCIENTIST:
That's exactly why I ignored your previous explanation, because it defies logic.

QUESTION #2 to CATHOLIC SCIENTIST: Is death the opposite of life? YES or NO?


"That people may know that you, whose name is JEHOVAH, you alone are the Most High over all the earth." (Psalms 83:18)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 286 by New Cat's Eye, posted 04-18-2013 10:59 PM New Cat's Eye has not yet responded

  
Alter2Ego
Member (Idle past 2164 days)
Posts: 72
From: Los Angeles, California
Joined: 04-06-2013


Message 324 of 385 (697133)
04-21-2013 8:17 PM
Reply to: Message 286 by New Cat's Eye
04-18-2013 10:59 PM


Re: Eternal Beings
quote:
ALTER2EGO to PURPLE DAWN:
During the three days that the Bible says Jesus was dead, are you saying he was actually still in existence as a living being aka the Bible is lying?

CATHOLIC SCIENTIST:
How could Jesus have made proclamations to the imprisoned spirits if he didn't exist?



QUESTION #3 to CATHOLIC SCIENTIST:
So you're telling me that the Bible was lying when it said Jesus died? TRUE or FALSE?

FYI: There are no scriptures in the Judeo-Christian Bible that say Jesus made proclamations to imprisoned spirits during the three days he was dead. If you can find such a scripture, please quote it for the benefit of the forum and show us where it says Jesus was dead when he was making the proclamations.

The verse of scripture you previously posted during your fallacious claim that Jesus was dead when he was preaching to imprisoned spirits is not saying that at all. I ignored you the first time when you posted it, because I figured you were not interested in the context (the surrounding words, verses, or chapters). But since you insist that I respond (because you are complaining that I am ignoring you), I will respond for the time being. If you post the verse again, be prepared to be shown the context this time around.


"That people may know that you, whose name is JEHOVAH, you alone are the Most High over all the earth." (Psalms 83:18)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 286 by New Cat's Eye, posted 04-18-2013 10:59 PM New Cat's Eye has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 327 by New Cat's Eye, posted 04-22-2013 11:06 AM Alter2Ego has responded

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 1802 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


(1)
Message 325 of 385 (697159)
04-22-2013 8:58 AM
Reply to: Message 321 by GDR
04-21-2013 6:15 PM


Re: We need to stop the OFF TOPIC posts in this thread
quote:
OK The problem is though that if you try and understand either hell or the trinity from Faith's perspective it all boils down to picking what appear to be relevant verses and then saying that there is your answer.
Yes, she argues from her perspective, you argue from your perspective and I argue from my perspective etc. That's the debate. Each provides support for their perspective and how they see what they do.

That's why it is important that we try to show support for our logic with facts or reasoning. Sometimes the reasoning is just because that's the status quo for the belief system and on the religious side, that's acceptable as an answer.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 321 by GDR, posted 04-21-2013 6:15 PM GDR has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 326 by Thugpreacha, posted 04-22-2013 9:03 AM purpledawn has not yet responded

  
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 13391
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 326 of 385 (697160)
04-22-2013 9:03 AM
Reply to: Message 325 by purpledawn
04-22-2013 8:58 AM


Re: We need to stop the OFF TOPIC posts in this thread
I agree with purpledawn.

Here is the original topic, edited by me to make more readable(since altar-to ego doesnt yet know how to use our quote system)

ALTAR TO EGO writes:


I am a Christian and have the deepest respect for God's inspired Word, the Judeo-Christian Bible. I invite fellow Christians to participate in the questions for discussion. Two of the most basic teachings in Christendom are as follows:

1. THE TRINITY
The teaching that God is split up into three individual persons that are combined into one "Godhead" (Father, Son, and holy ghost/holy spirit). All three of these persons are said to be CO-EQUAL (meaning they have the same power) and CO-ETERNAL (meaning they have always existed at the same time and none of them can die).

2. HELLFIRE
The teaching that God will burn a person's soul in everlasting hellfire for committing wicked deeds. In other words, God will supposedly punish people forever in fiery flames of hell--despite the fact the crimes the persons committed were only done during the persons' brief human lifespan.

QUESTIONS FOR DISCUSSION:
1.
Are there scriptures in the Bible to support the teachings of Trinity and hellfire? If so, present the scriptures by giving Bible book, chapter, and verse and also explain why you believe the scripture you present is talking about Trinity or literal hellfire.

2. Why are these teachings found in pagan/false religions that never worshipped the God of the Judeo-Christian Bible? For instance there were pagan trinities at least 200 years before Jesus came to the earth as a human.

A. In the 2nd century B.C.E. (two centuries before Christ came to the earth), Egypt had a triad of gods consisting of (1) Horus, (2) Osiris, and (3) Isis.

B. Likewise, in the 2nd century B.C.E. (two centuries before Christ came to the earth), Babylon had a triad of gods consisting of (1) Ishtar, (2) Sin, and (3) Shamash.

C. In fact, during the 1st century AD when Jesus was on earth, Palmyra, which was an ancient city in Syria, had a triune god which consisted of (1) moon god, (2) Lord of Heavens, and (3) sun god.

3. If the Trinity and hellfire are Bible teachings, why is it that Jesus and his apostles who followed him around never taught anyone about the Trinity and literal hellfire?

4. How is it that both the Trinity and hellfire teachings did not become "Christian" teachings until the Roman Catholics copied both of them from pagan/false religions--AFTER the resurrected Jesus Christ returned to heaven?

5. If hell is a place of literal fiery torment, how is it that the Bible says Jesus went to hell for the entire three days that he was dead?

"He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that HIS SOUL WAS NOT LEFT IN HELL, neither his flesh did see corruption." (Acts 2:31--King James Version)

6. If hell is a place of literal torment, why is it that the word "hell" also means "Sheol" and "Hades" and "the grave"?

7. Does the Bible teach that humans have an immortal soul that survives the death of the person so that the soul can then be burned in eternal flames? If so, please present scriptures to this effect to prove it.

8. Are the words "Trinity" and "Godhead" in the Bible? If so, were those words part of the original writings?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 325 by purpledawn, posted 04-22-2013 8:58 AM purpledawn has not yet responded

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 327 of 385 (697181)
04-22-2013 11:06 AM
Reply to: Message 324 by Alter2Ego
04-21-2013 8:17 PM


Re: Eternal Beings
From Message 323:

quote:
ALTER2EGO to PURPLE DAWN:
You have been told several times that an eternal person cannot die aka their life cannot end.
CATHOLIC SCIENTIST:
And you've ignored my explanation that Jesus did not end when he died.

ALTER2EGO to PURPLE DAWN:
So I say again, an eternal person cannot die and therefore, the fact that Jesus Christ died is evidence that he was not eternal from the get-go.

CATHOLIC SCIENTIST:
Repeating yourself doesn't make it true. You haven't addressed my arguments that proves you wrong, you just say it again as if you're ignoring me.



ALTER2EGO -to- CATHOLIC SCIENTIST:
That's exactly why I ignored your previous explanation, because it defies logic.

You can't just say "that defies logic". You have to actually explain how it defies logic. Kinda like how I explained why your post was illogical when I refuted it earlier. I'll say it again:

This whole argument rests on you defining "death" to be equivalent to an "end", but in the case of the story of Jesus in the Bible, his death was not his end so your argument fails. You have never addressed this refutation.

Simply avoiding it by just going "oh, that's illogical" is a failure on your part.

QUESTION #2 to CATHOLIC SCIENTIST: Is death the opposite of life? YES or NO?

Typically yes, but in the Bible, no. Jesus' body died but his Spirit lived on.

From Message 324:

quote:
ALTER2EGO to PURPLE DAWN:
During the three days that the Bible says Jesus was dead, are you saying he was actually still in existence as a living being aka the Bible is lying?
CATHOLIC SCIENTIST:
How could Jesus have made proclamations to the imprisoned spirits if he didn't exist?

QUESTION #3 to CATHOLIC SCIENTIST:
So you're telling me that the Bible was lying when it said Jesus died? TRUE or FALSE?

False. In fact, your position is the one that makes the Bible out to be lying.

FYI: There are no scriptures in the Judeo-Christian Bible that say Jesus made proclamations to imprisoned spirits during the three days he was dead. If you can find such a scripture, please quote it for the benefit of the forum and show us where it says Jesus was dead when he was making the proclamations.

There's all kinds of inferences that can be made from the Bible that are not explicitly stated. We don't need to find passages that state things exactly in order to understand them as we've phrased them.

The verse of scripture you previously posted during your fallacious claim that Jesus was dead when he was preaching to imprisoned spirits is not saying that at all. I ignored you the first time when you posted it, because I figured you were not interested in the context (the surrounding words, verses, or chapters). But since you insist that I respond (because you are complaining that I am ignoring you), I will respond for the time being. If you post the verse again, be prepared to be shown the context this time around.

The verse is still sitting there in my post waiting to be commented on. Anybody can pull up the whole chapter if they want, there's no reason for me to post it in its entirety here. We can reasonably infer what must have happened for the verses to be true without explicit passages that go into detail. You have not explained why the claim that he was dead when he was preaching to imprisoned spirits was fallacious, you've simply asserted it without argument. I can reject that just as easily.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 324 by Alter2Ego, posted 04-21-2013 8:17 PM Alter2Ego has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 339 by Alter2Ego, posted 04-27-2013 2:39 PM New Cat's Eye has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 17682
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 328 of 385 (697366)
04-24-2013 12:27 PM
Reply to: Message 322 by Alter2Ego
04-21-2013 7:21 PM


Re: Eternal Beings
Alter2Ego writes:

The dictionary says one who is eternal must exist through all time. Did Jesus continue to exist as a living being during the three days that the Bible says he was dead? YES or NO?


Life and existence are not the same thing. Of course a dead body exists. On the other hand, if it "comes back to life", it isn't really dead.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 322 by Alter2Ego, posted 04-21-2013 7:21 PM Alter2Ego has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 329 by Alter2Ego, posted 04-26-2013 12:09 PM ringo has responded

  
Alter2Ego
Member (Idle past 2164 days)
Posts: 72
From: Los Angeles, California
Joined: 04-06-2013


Message 329 of 385 (697503)
04-26-2013 12:09 PM
Reply to: Message 328 by ringo
04-24-2013 12:27 PM


Re: Eternal Beings
quote:
ALTER2EGO:

The dictionary says one who is eternal must exist through all time. Did Jesus continue to exist as a living being during the three days that the Bible says he was dead? YES or NO?

RINGO:
Life and existence are not the same thing. Of course a dead body exists. On the other hand, if it "comes back to life", it isn't really dead.



ALTER2EGO -to- RINGO:
Below are the two definitions of "eternal" that I have posted several times in this thread. Keep your eyes on the words bolded in light green. The answer the questions that follow.

DEFINITION OF "ETERNAL": Eternal means not having a beginning or an end.
http://www.yourdictionary.com/eternal

DEFINITION OF "ETERNAL": "without beginning or end; existing through all time; everlasting" (Source: Webster's New World College Dictionary)

QUESTION #1 to RINGO: If a dead body exists, does that mean the person is still alive? YES or NO?

QUESTION #2 to RINGO: By definition, an eternal person can never die because an eternal person must exist through all time. During the three days that Jesus was dead, did he continue to exist as a living being? YES or NO?

QUESTION #3 to RINGO: If someone died and then "comes back to life," is it not true that they still died and therefore, by default, they could not have been eternal because if they were, they never would have died from the get-go? TRUE or FALSE?


"That people may know that you, whose name is JEHOVAH, you alone are the Most High over all the earth." (Psalms 83:18)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 328 by ringo, posted 04-24-2013 12:27 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 330 by ringo, posted 04-26-2013 12:58 PM Alter2Ego has responded
 Message 331 by Dr Adequate, posted 04-26-2013 1:01 PM Alter2Ego has not yet responded
 Message 342 by NoNukes, posted 04-28-2013 12:26 AM Alter2Ego has not yet responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 17682
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 330 of 385 (697507)
04-26-2013 12:58 PM
Reply to: Message 329 by Alter2Ego
04-26-2013 12:09 PM


Re: Eternal Beings
Alter2Ego writes:

If a dead body exists, does that mean the person is still alive?


A dead body is not alive and vice versa. Sometimes the line between dead and alive is a bit fuzzy.

Alter2Ego writes:

By definition, an eternal person can never die because an eternal person must exist through all time.


Then, by that definition there's no such thing as an eternal person.

Alter2Ego writes:

During the three days that Jesus was dead, did he continue to exist as a living being?


See above. The process of dying can sometimes be reversed in its early stages but the state of death is not undoable.

Alter2Ego writes:

If someone died and then "comes back to life," is it not true that they still died...


No. The process of dying may have begun but was not completed. The state of death marks the point of no return in the dying process.

Alter2Ego writes:

...they could not have been eternal because if they were, they never would have died from the get-go?


See above. There's no such thing as an "eternal person". The inevitablity of death negates the possibility of eternal life.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 329 by Alter2Ego, posted 04-26-2013 12:09 PM Alter2Ego has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 336 by Alter2Ego, posted 04-27-2013 1:35 PM ringo has responded

  
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