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Author Topic:   Bible Teachings or Traditions of Men?
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 331 of 385 (697508)
04-26-2013 1:01 PM
Reply to: Message 329 by Alter2Ego
04-26-2013 12:09 PM


Re: Eternal Beings
No, Faith et al. are correct.
The Bible makes it quite clear that Jesus existed from at least the beginning of time (see John 1), but not in the flesh. Then the "Word was made flesh". So his existence is not coincident with his existence in the flesh. Between the crucifixion and the resurrection, he went on existing, as the Bible makes clear in 1 Peter 3:18: "being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit". He still existed for that period, but was not incarnate. There can be no doubt about that from the scriptures, and you are just messing around with words to obscure what is quite clear to anyone who can be bothered to read the Bible.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 329 by Alter2Ego, posted 04-26-2013 12:09 PM Alter2Ego has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 332 by New Cat's Eye, posted 04-26-2013 1:46 PM Dr Adequate has not replied
 Message 334 by Faith, posted 04-26-2013 7:30 PM Dr Adequate has replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 332 of 385 (697518)
04-26-2013 1:46 PM
Reply to: Message 331 by Dr Adequate
04-26-2013 1:01 PM


Re: Eternal Beings
There's also the "don't touch me" part after Jesus' burial. He was around the tomb and Mary Magdalene eventually recognized Jesus but he told her not to touch him yet because apparently he was still in some sort of transitional stage, or something.
The line is in John 20:17.
quote:
From John 20 (NIV)
Jesus Appears to Mary Magdalene
11 Now Mary stood outside the tomb crying. As she wept, she bent over to look into the tomb
12 and saw two angels in white, seated where Jesus’ body had been, one at the head and the other at the foot.
13 They asked her, Woman, why are you crying? They have taken my Lord away, she said, and I don’t know where they have put him.
14 At this, she turned around and saw Jesus standing there, but she did not realize that it was Jesus.
15 He asked her, Woman, why are you crying? Who is it you are looking for? Thinking he was the gardener, she said, Sir, if you have carried him away, tell me where you have put him, and I will get him.
16 Jesus said to her, Mary. She turned toward him and cried out in Aramaic, Rabboni! (which means Teacher).
17 Jesus said, Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.’
18 Mary Magdalene went to the disciples with the news: I have seen the Lord! And she told them that he had said these things to her.
So Jesus had died, and he hadn't ascended to his Father yet, yet he was recognizable as Jesus so therefore he had to exist in some sort of state while he was dead. Ergo, he hadn't ended and can still be considered eternal.
Edited by Catholic Scientist, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 331 by Dr Adequate, posted 04-26-2013 1:01 PM Dr Adequate has not replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 333 of 385 (697526)
04-26-2013 3:56 PM


Trinity implied in Matthew
Matt 3: 16-17 (NIV):
quote:
As soon as Jesus was baptized, he went up out of the water. At that moment heaven was opened, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and alighting on him. And a voice from heaven said, This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased.
We've got Jesus floating in the sky, seeing the Holy Spirit, and hearing the voice of the Father calling him his Son.
Father, Son, and Holy Spirit all in the same place at the same time.

Replies to this message:
 Message 335 by Faith, posted 04-26-2013 7:34 PM New Cat's Eye has seen this message but not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 334 of 385 (697532)
04-26-2013 7:30 PM
Reply to: Message 331 by Dr Adequate
04-26-2013 1:01 PM


Re: Eternal Beings
The Bible makes it quite clear that Jesus existed from at least the beginning of time (see John 1), but not in the flesh. Then the "Word was made flesh". So his existence is not coincident with his existence in the flesh. Between the crucifixion and the resurrection, he went on existing, as the Bible makes clear in 1 Peter 3:18: "being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit". He still existed for that period, but was not incarnate. There can be no doubt about that from the scriptures, and you are just messing around with words to obscure what is quite clear to anyone who can be bothered to read the Bible.
Good points. Only John 1:1 doesn't say Jesus existed "from the beginning of time" -- although I know you said "at least" -- but "And the Word was God" makes Him God Himself, therefore uncreated, without beginning or end.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 331 by Dr Adequate, posted 04-26-2013 1:01 PM Dr Adequate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 341 by Dr Adequate, posted 04-27-2013 11:26 PM Faith has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 335 of 385 (697533)
04-26-2013 7:34 PM
Reply to: Message 333 by New Cat's Eye
04-26-2013 3:56 PM


Re: Trinity implied in Matthew
As soon as Jesus was baptized, he went up out of the water. At that moment heaven was opened, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and alighting on him. And a voice from heaven said, This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased.
We've got Jesus floating in the sky, seeing the Holy Spirit, and hearing the voice of the Father calling him his Son.
Father, Son, and Holy Spirit all in the same place at the same time.
Right, good point, but don't know where you're getting "Jesus floating in the sky." He merely "went up out of the water," walking on His two feet up onto the dry land I'd assume, when the Spirit descended and God the Father's voice from heaven was heard.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 333 by New Cat's Eye, posted 04-26-2013 3:56 PM New Cat's Eye has seen this message but not replied

  
Alter2Ego
Member (Idle past 3819 days)
Posts: 72
From: Los Angeles, California
Joined: 04-06-2013


Message 336 of 385 (697550)
04-27-2013 1:35 PM
Reply to: Message 330 by ringo
04-26-2013 12:58 PM


Re: The Bible: Jesus was Dead for 3 Days
quote:
RINGO:
A dead body is not alive and vice versa. Sometimes the line between dead and alive is a bit fuzzy.
ALTER2EGO -to- RINGO:
Below is a scriptural quotation and the definition of "dead," followed by four questions. Keep your eyes on the words bolded in light green throughout this post.
"{3} For I handed on to you, among the first things, that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures; {4} and that he was buried, yes, that he has been raised up the third day according to the Scriptures;" (1 Corinthians 15:3-4)
quote:
DEFINITION OF "DEAD":
"The definition of dead is no longer alive, or it is absolute, lacking in emotion, dull, numb or no longer relevant for some reason.
(adjective)
A person who has passed away and who is no longer alive is someone who would be described as dead."
http://www.yourdictionary.com/dead
QUESTION #4 to RINGO: The Bible clearly states at 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 that Jesus was dead, and not only dead, but dead for three days. TRUE or FALSE?
QUESTION #5 to RINGO: The dictionary defines death as "A person who has passed away and . . . is no longer alive." Are you still "fuzzy" about whether or not Jesus Christ was really and truly dead? YES or NO?
DEFINITION OF "ETERNAL": "without beginning or end; existing through all time; everlasting" (Source: Webster's New World College Dictionary)
QUESTION #6 to RINGO: The definition of "eternal" is that the individual must exist [as a living being] through all time. Was Jesus, as a living being, in existence during the three days the Bible says he was dead? YES or NO?
QUESTION #7 to RINGO: If Jesus was not really dead and was instantly alive in the spirit, as some in this forum are claiming, why did he have to be resurrected from the dead after the three days? In other words, did Jehovah resurrect a living person who was already alive in the spirit? YES or NO?

"That people may know that you, whose name is JEHOVAH, you alone are the Most High over all the earth." (Psalms 83:18)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 330 by ringo, posted 04-26-2013 12:58 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 337 by ringo, posted 04-27-2013 2:03 PM Alter2Ego has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 337 of 385 (697551)
04-27-2013 2:03 PM
Reply to: Message 336 by Alter2Ego
04-27-2013 1:35 PM


Re: The Bible: Jesus was Dead for 3 Days
Alter2Ego writes:
The Bible clearly states at 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 that Jesus was dead, and not only dead, but dead for three days.
Even according to your own definition, the phrase "dead for three days" has no meaning. Dead is dead. There is no time limit. The only qualification is "previously alive".
Alter2Ego writes:
The dictionary defines death as "A person who has passed away and . . . is no longer alive." Are you still "fuzzy" about whether or not Jesus Christ was really and truly dead?
You have the dictionary claiming one thing and the Bible claiming another. You can't draw a mathematically certain conclusion from that. Yes, there is some fuzziness. Either Jesus wasn't dead in the first place or he wasn't alive later. There is no option in your own definition for "dead and then alive again".
Alter2Ego writes:
The definition of "eternal" is that the individual must exist [as a living being] through all time. Was Jesus, as a living being, in existence during the three days the Bible says he was dead?
Your own definition says no such thing. It says "existing" through all time, not "living" through all time. Jesus existed as a living being and then as a dead being. His existence may or may not be eternal. His life was not.
Alter2Ego writes:
If Jesus was not really dead and was instantly alive in the spirit, as some in this forum are claiming, why did he have to be resurrected from the dead after the three days? In other words, did Jehovah resurrect a living person who was already alive in the spirit?
You're looking for logic where there is none. You might as well ask why the Big Bad Wolf disguised himself as Granny instead of just eating Little Red Riding Hood without all the rigamarole. The only "reason" is that's what the story says.
The only reason Jesus "had to be resurrected after three days" was to supposedly fulfill a prophecy. There's no theological reason for it.
Edited by ringo, : Spellng.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 336 by Alter2Ego, posted 04-27-2013 1:35 PM Alter2Ego has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 338 by Alter2Ego, posted 04-27-2013 2:18 PM ringo has replied

  
Alter2Ego
Member (Idle past 3819 days)
Posts: 72
From: Los Angeles, California
Joined: 04-06-2013


Message 338 of 385 (697554)
04-27-2013 2:18 PM
Reply to: Message 337 by ringo
04-27-2013 2:03 PM


Re: The Bible: Jesus was Dead for 3 Days
quote:
RINGO:
Even according to your own definition, the phrase "dead for three days" has no meaning. Dead is dead. There is no time limit. The only qualification is "previously alive".
ALTER2EGO to RINGO:
I asked you eight (8) questions thus far, all of which you evaded. The answers to the questions are "YES" and "NO" and "TRUE" or "FALSE" in some instances. One of the questions I last asked you is simple: "The Bible clearly states at 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 that Jesus was dead, and not only dead, but dead for three days. TRUE or FALSE?" I did not ask you if you agree with the Bible. I asked you if that's what the Bible says happened.
You have seen me at work on this forum long enough to know by now that I ask people viewpoint questions based upon what I specifically quote from the Bible or based upon dictionary definitions. So you knew what you were getting into when you wrote me the very first message. Since you now want to play the game of Artful Dodger, please avoid writing to me if you are not willing to answer questions pertaining to our discussions. If you write me anything else, I will not reply.
Edited by Alter2Ego, : No reason given.

"That people may know that you, whose name is JEHOVAH, you alone are the Most High over all the earth." (Psalms 83:18)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 337 by ringo, posted 04-27-2013 2:03 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 340 by ringo, posted 04-27-2013 2:42 PM Alter2Ego has not replied

  
Alter2Ego
Member (Idle past 3819 days)
Posts: 72
From: Los Angeles, California
Joined: 04-06-2013


Message 339 of 385 (697557)
04-27-2013 2:39 PM
Reply to: Message 327 by New Cat's Eye
04-22-2013 11:06 AM


Re: Eternal Beings
quote:
ALTER2EGO:
FYI: There are no scriptures in the Judeo-Christian Bible that say Jesus made proclamations to imprisoned spirits during the three days he was dead. If you can find such a scripture, please quote it for the benefit of the forum and show us where it says Jesus was dead when he was making the proclamations.
CATHOLIC SCIENTIST:
The verse is still sitting there in my post waiting to be commented on. Anybody can pull up the whole chapter if they want, there's no reason for me to post it in its entirety here. We can reasonably infer what must have happened for the verses to be true without explicit passages that go into detail. You have not explained why the claim that he was dead when he was preaching to imprisoned spirits was fallacious, you've simply asserted it without argument. I can reject that just as easily.
ALTER2EGO -to- CATHOLIC SCIENTIST:
Since the verse is "still sitting there" in your previous post, you should have no trouble quoting it again, and this time, bolding the words that indicate: "Jesus was alive in the spirit and preaching to imprisoned spirits during the three days the Bible says he was dead."
When do you intend to do that?

"That people may know that you, whose name is JEHOVAH, you alone are the Most High over all the earth." (Psalms 83:18)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 327 by New Cat's Eye, posted 04-22-2013 11:06 AM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 351 by New Cat's Eye, posted 04-29-2013 9:37 AM Alter2Ego has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(2)
Message 340 of 385 (697558)
04-27-2013 2:42 PM
Reply to: Message 338 by Alter2Ego
04-27-2013 2:18 PM


Re: The Bible: Jesus was Dead for 3 Days
Alter2Ego writes:
I asked you eight (8) questions thus far, all of which you evaded. The answers to the questions are "YES" and "NO" and "TRUE" or "FALSE" in some instances.
Have you stopped beating your wife? Yes or No?
It's dishonest to demand a yes or no answer when neither of them is correct.
Alter2Ego writes:
One of the questions I last asked you is simple: "The Bible clearly states at 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 that Jesus was dead, and not only dead, but dead for three days. TRUE or FALSE?" I did not ask you if you agree with the Bible. I asked you if that's what the Bible says happened.
What's the point of asking a question like that? Of course it says what it says. Do you think I'm going to waste my time confirming a tautology? Yes, black is black. Yes, white is white.
My replies are to the direction you're going. Pardon me if I'm getting ahead of you.
Alter2Ego writes:
You have seen me at work on this forum long enough to know by now that I ask people viewpoint questions based upon what I specifically quote from the Bible or based upon dictionary definitions.
You ask people dishonest leading questions in the hope of furthering your own argument, not to get their viewpoint. That's more akin to preaching than discussion. If you're really interested in discussing the topic, you'll give some consideration to the alternate viewpoints being presented.
Now, I pointed out that your own definitions don't support your argument. Do you have any defense?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 338 by Alter2Ego, posted 04-27-2013 2:18 PM Alter2Ego has not replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 341 of 385 (697616)
04-27-2013 11:26 PM
Reply to: Message 334 by Faith
04-26-2013 7:30 PM


Re: Eternal Beings
Good points. Only John 1:1 doesn't say Jesus existed "from the beginning of time" -- although I know you said "at least" -- but "And the Word was God" makes Him God Himself, therefore uncreated, without beginning or end.
Well, I did say "at least". John says: "In the beginning was the Word".
It's not clear that the Bible authors had the same rather subtle concept of eternity that was developed by later theologians. I don't say they didn't, but I would be hard put to it to prove it from texts that I can recall right now.
However, what we can take away from John 1 is that it definitely has Jesus existing though not being in the flesh. If he was alive before he was born in the flesh, there's no problem with him being dead in the flesh but alive in spirit, as 1 Peter says.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 334 by Faith, posted 04-26-2013 7:30 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 343 by Faith, posted 04-28-2013 6:37 AM Dr Adequate has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 342 of 385 (697623)
04-28-2013 12:26 AM
Reply to: Message 329 by Alter2Ego
04-26-2013 12:09 PM


Re: Eternal Beings
My emphasis added below
QUESTION #2 to RINGO: By definition, an eternal person can never die because an eternal person must exist through all time. During the three days that Jesus was dead, did he continue to exist as a living being? YES or NO?
This sleight of hand is far too obvious here. You went from "exist through all time" through "exist as a living being". That means that even a NO answer does not get at the ultimate question.
Let me pose a question for you, Alter2Ego. Do you believe that a person can die, and yet 'not perish' and beyond that even have 'everlasting life?' Did Jesus accomplish that feat?
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I would say here something that was heard from an ecclesiastic of the most eminent degree; ‘That the intention of the Holy Ghost is to teach us how one goes to heaven, not how the heaven goes.’ Galileo Galilei 1615.
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 329 by Alter2Ego, posted 04-26-2013 12:09 PM Alter2Ego has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 343 of 385 (697639)
04-28-2013 6:37 AM
Reply to: Message 341 by Dr Adequate
04-27-2013 11:26 PM


Re: Eternal Beings
It's not clear that the Bible authors had the same rather subtle concept of eternity that was developed by later theologians. I don't say they didn't, but I would be hard put to it to prove it from texts that I can recall right now.
However, what we can take away from John 1 is that it definitely has Jesus existing though not being in the flesh. If he was alive before he was born in the flesh, there's no problem with him being dead in the flesh but alive in spirit, as 1 Peter says.
Yes, you did prove that point, which was the point at issue of course, but the eternality of God can't be just a matter of some theological interpretations. Some of the Biblical references are more clear than others though:
I think the Name God gives for Himself, I AM that I AM, in and of itself says He is eternal, without beginning or end. The Self-Existent One. He just IS, always has been:
Exd 3:14 And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.
Matthew Henry Commentary has:
1. A name that denotes what he is in himself (v. 14): I am that I am. This explains his name Jehovah, and signifies, (1.) That he is self-existent; he has his being of himself, and has no dependence upon any other: the greatest and best man in the world must say, By the grace of God I am what I am; but God says absolutelyand it is more than any creature, man or angel, can sayI am that I am. Being self-existent, he cannot but be self-sufficient, and therefore all-sufficient, and the inexhaustible fountain of being and bliss. (2.) That he is eternal and unchangeable, and always the same, yesterday, to-day, and for ever; he will be what he will be and what he is; see Rev. 1:8. (3.) That we cannot by searching find him out. This is such a name as checks all bold and curious enquiries concerning God, and in effect says, Ask not after my name, seeing it is secret, Jdg. 13:18; Prov. 30:4. Do we ask what is God? Let it suffice us to know that he is what he is, what he ever was, and ever will be.
Then there are all the claims to be the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end, particularly in Revelation:
Rev 1:8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.
To BE the beginning and the end suggests eternality, but if that isn't sufficient there is also:
Hbr 13:8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.
And then there is the passage about the priest Melchizedek, who is this mysterious figure who blessed Abraham, who may be a theophany of Christ, although there are other ideas about that, but in that case he couldn't be eternal because only God is eternal. But the passage does describe him as having neither beginning nor end:
Hbr 7:3 Without father, without mother, without descent, having neither beginning of days, nor end of life; but made like unto the Son of God; abideth a priest continually.
And the words "eternal" and "everlasting" do appear in the KJV, although the underlying Hebrew has variable meanings:
Deu 33:27 The eternal God [is thy] refuge, and underneath [are] the everlasting arms:
For "everlasting" Strong's Concordance does include the meaning of "continuous existence" or "perpetual" and "eternity" but in terms of the future, not the past for some reason.
1) long duration, antiquity, futurity, for ever, ever, everlasting, evermore, perpetual, old, ancient, world
a) ancient time, long time (of past)
b) (of future)
1) for ever, always
2) continuous existence, perpetual
3) everlasting, indefinite or unending future, eternity

He who surrenders the first page of his Bible surrenders all. --John William Burgon, Inspiration and Interpretation, Sermon II.
2Cr 10:4-5 (For the weapons of our warfare [are] not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God...

This message is a reply to:
 Message 341 by Dr Adequate, posted 04-27-2013 11:26 PM Dr Adequate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 344 by Dr Adequate, posted 04-28-2013 12:48 PM Faith has replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 344 of 385 (697645)
04-28-2013 12:48 PM
Reply to: Message 343 by Faith
04-28-2013 6:37 AM


Re: Eternal Beings
Quite so. However, later theologians (Augustine, etc) would think of God's eternity as consisting in him existing without time, which they considered one of his creations, rather than merely existing in time and at all times. Now, this might be the best way to make sense of the concept of an eternal God who created the universe at a particular time (time zero) but I don't think one would know it from the texts directly. This is the subtlety I was referring to. What we can get out of the texts is that at the very least Jesus existed (and will exist) for all time.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 343 by Faith, posted 04-28-2013 6:37 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 345 by Faith, posted 04-28-2013 1:22 PM Dr Adequate has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 345 of 385 (697647)
04-28-2013 1:22 PM
Reply to: Message 344 by Dr Adequate
04-28-2013 12:48 PM


Re: Eternal Beings
Doesn't "without beginning or end" suggest something outside of time altogether? That is, what Augustine had in mind: time as created, God being outside it.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 344 by Dr Adequate, posted 04-28-2013 12:48 PM Dr Adequate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 348 by Dr Adequate, posted 04-28-2013 3:27 PM Faith has not replied

  
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