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Author Topic:   Is String Theory Supernatural?
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 62 of 181 (697789)
04-30-2013 8:11 AM
Reply to: Message 61 by GDR
04-29-2013 8:13 PM


Re: What is supernatural?
I've asked on this forum for not just congruence, but evidence for atheism and the answer has been evolution.

I cannot remember seeing this argument. Evidence of evolution is evidence that YEC beliefs are unfounded, but not that religion itself is wrong. The latter argument is clearly wrong.

I'm not saying that science proves anything about my theistic beliefs. I'm only pointing out where science is consistent with and can inform my existing beliefs.

Is this effect something other than constraining your beliefs?


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I would say here something that was heard from an ecclesiastic of the most eminent degree; ‘That the intention of the Holy Ghost is to teach us how one goes to heaven, not how the heaven goes.’ Galileo Galilei 1615.

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 61 by GDR, posted 04-29-2013 8:13 PM GDR has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 68 by GDR, posted 04-30-2013 3:37 PM NoNukes has acknowledged this reply

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 113 of 181 (698478)
05-07-2013 11:41 AM
Reply to: Message 112 by Tangle
05-06-2013 5:58 PM


Re: What is supernatural?
e believes in a loving god so he dismisses the hard parts of both old and new testaments

I don't think the above is completely accurate or at least it seems incomplete in a way that casts a bad light. GDR does not believe that God dictated the Bible. Thus a lot of what is written in the Bible is the interpretation of what men believed about God.

On the other hand, GDR accepts essentially everything the Gospels say that Jesus taught and did as fact. Where other parts of the Bible conflict with that, they must be wrong.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I would say here something that was heard from an ecclesiastic of the most eminent degree; ‘That the intention of the Holy Ghost is to teach us how one goes to heaven, not how the heaven goes.’ Galileo Galilei 1615.

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 112 by Tangle, posted 05-06-2013 5:58 PM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 115 by Tangle, posted 05-07-2013 1:21 PM NoNukes has responded

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 116 of 181 (698539)
05-07-2013 10:01 PM
Reply to: Message 115 by Tangle
05-07-2013 1:21 PM


Re: What is supernatural?
I don't think that can be correct, if only for the fact that there is nothing in the bible written by Jesus - it's ALL third party reporting.

Why would this prevent GDR from believing those third party reports are true? For example, I am sure GDR has said in the past the he believes Jesus performed the miracles described in the Gospels.

GDR accepts or rejects a particular verse based on his very liberal interpretation of those verses. What he calls 'putting them in context.'

I don't find GDR's interpretations of the Gospels to be liberal. Perhaps that's my own bias, but it seems to me that any 'liberalness' GDR uses is applied elsewhere in the new Testament.

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I would say here something that was heard from an ecclesiastic of the most eminent degree; ‘That the intention of the Holy Ghost is to teach us how one goes to heaven, not how the heaven goes.’ Galileo Galilei 1615.

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 115 by Tangle, posted 05-07-2013 1:21 PM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 117 by Tangle, posted 05-08-2013 3:32 AM NoNukes has responded

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 120 of 181 (698663)
05-08-2013 5:18 PM
Reply to: Message 117 by Tangle
05-08-2013 3:32 AM


Re: What is supernatural?
I just mean that he has pretty relaxed and compassionate views cf, say Faith's interpretation of the same words.

I understand that you did not mean liberal as a swear word. But I don't consider Faith's beliefs to a baseline to measure whether someone's interpretation of the Bible is improper or subjective. You are using liberal in exactly the way Faith would, and I don't see how using liberal in such a way isn't a judgement on GDR's beliefs.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I would say here something that was heard from an ecclesiastic of the most eminent degree; ‘That the intention of the Holy Ghost is to teach us how one goes to heaven, not how the heaven goes.’ Galileo Galilei 1615.

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 117 by Tangle, posted 05-08-2013 3:32 AM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 121 by Tangle, posted 05-08-2013 5:27 PM NoNukes has not yet responded

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 146 of 181 (699146)
05-15-2013 12:09 AM
Reply to: Message 144 by Straggler
05-14-2013 12:12 PM


Re: What is supernatural?
But I thought you believed in miracles? Feeding thousands of people with a few loaves of bread and a couple of fish would violate conservation of energy and raising the dead would seem to be equally in violation of scientific evidence regarding decomposition and suchlike.

Miracles violate the rules. In the case of feeding the multitude, we don't have evidence that the event never happened. Instead you have concluded that it could not using strictly deductive reasoning based on your experience that scientific laws are never broken.

Contrast that type of miracle with a literal Genesis-style Creation Week. We are not required to merely rely on conservation of energy or matter to deductively conclude that the Creation Week never happened. Instead we have objective evidence that the earth, moon, sun, etc are older than 6000 years old, and we have evidence of what actually did happen.

GDR can accept that science has established that God, despite being omnipotent, simply did not intervene in the way described in Genesis. But GDR is not forced to accept the same thing regarding the feeding of the 5000. Yes it violates the rules, but God can do that.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I would say here something that was heard from an ecclesiastic of the most eminent degree; ‘That the intention of the Holy Ghost is to teach us how one goes to heaven, not how the heaven goes.’ Galileo Galilei 1615.

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 144 by Straggler, posted 05-14-2013 12:12 PM Straggler has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 147 by Straggler, posted 05-15-2013 6:22 AM NoNukes has responded

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 148 of 181 (699169)
05-15-2013 12:10 PM
Reply to: Message 147 by Straggler
05-15-2013 6:22 AM


Re: "God can do that"
... one would simply proclaim that God created the Earth/universe recently but with the appearance of age. Because - to quote you – “God can do that”. In fact this is indeed one of the creationist positions. Omphalism

Yes one could do that, but essentially nobody does. I don't believe very many people are Omphalists. Even the most ardent Bible literalist rejects the idea that God hid old fossils and radioactive materials in the ground just to make the earth appear to be old. Instead, the literalists go the route of simply saying that science is wrong about aging.

GDR seems to take a three pronged approach.

If a theistic claim obviously contradicts scientific findings..

The problem with your logic/description is that you lump all scientific findings in the same boat. I think some scientific findings and conclusions are qualitatively different in basis and logic than others. GDR may actually do some of the things you suggest. I do not know everything he believes, but the particular examples of Jesus feeding a multitude and Creation week do not, in my opinion, fit the pattern you describe.

As a convincing argument for theism or an exercise in critical thinking – Well to put it politely – It leaves a lot to be desired.

I'm not making the argument that you should be convinced. I'm suggesting that GDR's beliefs are not as inconsistent as you describe. What you have laid out is the 'God of Gaps' which is the situation where God diminishes as our knowledge of science becomes more complete.

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I would say here something that was heard from an ecclesiastic of the most eminent degree; ‘That the intention of the Holy Ghost is to teach us how one goes to heaven, not how the heaven goes.’ Galileo Galilei 1615.

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 147 by Straggler, posted 05-15-2013 6:22 AM Straggler has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 152 by Straggler, posted 05-15-2013 3:12 PM NoNukes has not yet responded

  
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