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Author Topic:   Increases in Genetic Information
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 305 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


(8)
Message 6 of 193 (697428)
04-25-2013 9:58 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by jbozz21
04-20-2013 3:59 AM


Given your attitude on the other thread, I should like to ask: what point is there in talking to you? You won't take what we say on trust (which is fair enough). But when referred to scientific studies you declare them over your head. And when told that you could study the issue until you thoroughly understood it, you declare that you "don't have that kind of time". And lacking the knowledge that would come from such study, you feel free to reject any fact that contradicts your pre-determined religious beliefs.
Which would make trying to educate you on these matters like pouring water into a sieve. You have talked yourself into a position where you can completely ignore any information you don't like. In answering your questions, we would be supplying you with a whole lot of information you wouldn't like, all of which you would ignore --- which would seem to make our efforts pointless.
The only thing that seems more pointless is the way you ask questions to which you don't actually want answers.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by jbozz21, posted 04-20-2013 3:59 AM jbozz21 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 13 by jbozz21, posted 04-25-2013 6:50 PM Dr Adequate has replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 305 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 15 of 193 (697472)
04-25-2013 7:20 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by jbozz21
04-25-2013 6:50 PM


Dr. Adequate, I don't mean to question all scientific studies, just obscure ones that really cannot be supported by any other scientific research. The truth is that there is bias in science, but the great thing about science is that there are at many times people with many different backgrounds and beliefs that can keep people in check that make false scientific studies. The problem lies when one person or group of persons performs a study but then it is not followed through by further validation or rebuttal by scientists without the same bias.
The problem that I have is when people make claims that are not supported by solid scientific research done by many different people. I also have a problem when people begin making claims based upon half truths meant to skew the truth to their own beliefs, or even lie about the data or the interpretation of data which happens at times.
I am just saying that nobody should trust obscure scientific data over common sense.
But this is, of course, not what you were actually objecting to, nor was it the objection you made.

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Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 305 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


(5)
Message 90 of 193 (697648)
04-28-2013 1:32 PM
Reply to: Message 42 by jbozz21
04-27-2013 5:31 PM


Darwin assumed that all of these different "species" of finches on the Galapagos Islands were different species didn't he? This was his evidence for the evolution of all species on earth from a single common ancestor.
No, that's something you made up. Or rather, something that someone else made up for you, and that you've learned to recite without ever wondering whether it was actually true.
Scientists cannot even confidently classify species. They don't even follow a solid definition of Species. What does that say about the entire theory of evolution from a common ancestor?
It's a sign that it's correct.
That is the basic argument of Creationism. It is true too. There has never been an actual recorded speciation event.
Whether that's "the basic argument of Creationism" depends on which creationist you ask. For example, AnswersInGenesis have "No new species have been produced" in their list of "Arguments that should never be used". And creation.com says: "New species have been observed to form. In fact, rapid speciation is an important part of the creation model."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 42 by jbozz21, posted 04-27-2013 5:31 PM jbozz21 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 91 by jbozz21, posted 04-28-2013 2:19 PM Dr Adequate has replied
 Message 98 by NoNukes, posted 04-28-2013 7:01 PM Dr Adequate has not replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 305 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


(1)
Message 92 of 193 (697655)
04-28-2013 3:17 PM
Reply to: Message 91 by jbozz21
04-28-2013 2:19 PM


It depends on which definition of speciation you go by, whether you go by the arbitrary blurry one that doesn't even mean anything, or the true definition of species which has been defined but not stuck to by those that classify many species.
The "true" definition? This would be different to the one used by the creationists I've cited?
Here's another one. According to the CreationWiki:
Early creationists assumed that species were fixed and unchanging [...] However, due to improved understanding of speciation, it is now widely recognized by creationists that the process can occur rapidly
When you've figured out what you want the "true" definition to be, maybe you could set your fellow-creationists straight.
care to back that up?
Sure.
Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 91 by jbozz21, posted 04-28-2013 2:19 PM jbozz21 has not replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 305 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 104 of 193 (697693)
04-29-2013 1:47 AM
Reply to: Message 101 by Just being real
04-29-2013 1:19 AM


Re: Thoughts on human evolution
What a lot of stuff you've made up.
My intent here is not to slander mainstream science ...
Well, whoops, then.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 101 by Just being real, posted 04-29-2013 1:19 AM Just being real has not replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 305 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 110 of 193 (697699)
04-29-2013 2:43 AM
Reply to: Message 108 by Just being real
04-29-2013 2:35 AM


Re: Thoughts on human evolution
I don't believe it is off topic since a primary question posed in the topic is evidence for "macro-evolution." To which coyote commented that the evidence for human evolution would be a primary example of that evidence. I was merely pointing out that this evidence (so called) is really more of a stumble in the dark at best and riddled with more questions than answers.
And if your argument hadn't been based on made-up stuff, you'd have a point.

This message is a reply to:
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Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 305 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


(1)
Message 113 of 193 (697702)
04-29-2013 4:11 AM
Reply to: Message 112 by Just being real
04-29-2013 4:03 AM


Re: Thoughts on human evolution

This message is a reply to:
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Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 305 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


(2)
Message 114 of 193 (697703)
04-29-2013 4:23 AM
Reply to: Message 101 by Just being real
04-29-2013 1:19 AM


Re: Thoughts on human evolution
So here’s my question to that common response, Exactly how many uncorrected errors exist in science today? The answer of course would be that we haven’t a clue.
Well, we can estimate the number to be small, on the following grounds: we know that creationists would love to catch real scientists making a mistake. And we know how intelligent creationists are, how much scientific research they do, how intimately familiar they are with the scientific literature. And there are, of course, a heck of a lot of creationists, more, indeed, than would actually seem necessary. And yet there is not one single verified instance of it happening.
This suggests that the errors made by scientists are exceedingly rare --- or, of course, that the second of my premises was false and that creationists are actually lazy ignorant halfwits. But how likely is that?
Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
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Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 305 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


(1)
Message 125 of 193 (697729)
04-29-2013 10:35 AM
Reply to: Message 119 by Just being real
04-29-2013 9:24 AM


Lol! Okay, so I guess you guys really showed me huh? The fact that I said "doctoral dissertations" when I probably should have just said "PAPERS" totally destroys my whole point... how is that again exactly? Obviously as I already admitted, I don't know the thesis personally. And as I'm sure you already know, I followed someone else's error in poor choice of wording.
You followed someone else's lie in reciting it.
But does this error in wording mean that no scientists were ever deceived by Piltdown man? And if that is true how exactly does that also undermine the fact that the public was deceived by Piltdown man along also with Pithecanthropus, Sinanthropus, Homo Habilis, Australopithecus, Ramapithecu, and Neanderthalensis?
The fact that that's not a fact kinda undermines that "fact".
Have you learned nothing from being suckered by the Piltdown Man nonsense you recited? Like a little humility?

This message is a reply to:
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Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 305 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 126 of 193 (697730)
04-29-2013 10:38 AM
Reply to: Message 121 by Just being real
04-29-2013 9:36 AM


Re: Understanding indirect observation
Who said anything about mutations here?
This issue is precisely that you didn't say anything about them. It's a fairly important thing to leave out.
A: What's two plus two?
B: Three. Or maybe five. Or seventeen.
A: How about four?
B: Who said anything about four here?
Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 121 by Just being real, posted 04-29-2013 9:36 AM Just being real has not replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 305 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 131 of 193 (697747)
04-29-2013 1:45 PM
Reply to: Message 128 by Coyote
04-29-2013 12:18 PM


Re: BS on human evolution
Also, do you have a source for the claim that the fossil casts failed to fit some enclosures at the American Museum of Natural History?
No, lets get this right, he alleges that the real fossils failed to fit display cases which were based on the casts. Apparently he inhabits some parallel universe in which museums manufacture form-fitting display cases for fossils, and a millimeter or so either way prevents them from fitting them in the cases.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 128 by Coyote, posted 04-29-2013 12:18 PM Coyote has not replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 305 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


(1)
Message 150 of 193 (698161)
05-03-2013 12:02 PM
Reply to: Message 145 by Just being real
05-03-2013 11:27 AM


The reason it's necessary is because the term "mutation" can be extremely deceiving and can give the wrong impression. It is a word that is often (even by those in the professional field) incorrectly applied to situations such as, where nuclear contamination produces deformities. It is often misused to describe deformed flies, snakes with two heads, albino animals, children with Down Syndrome, renegade cancer cells, etc... These are all genetic "flaws," not advanced genes which carry life forward. And that is what we are looking for here.
But that's not a misuse, that's the use, that's why "those in the professional field" actually use it that way. It's any change in DNA, whatever the cause, whatever the outcome.
You cannot redefine the word "mutation" to mean "those mutations the existence of which Jbr would like to deny", because you don't have powers like that over the English language.
For a true mutation to occur that demonstrates the mechanism of macro evolution, the DNA would have to somehow reorganize into a genetic sequence that has never been known before now that gives the organism a selective advantage, and I don't think that has ever happened in either nature or in the laboratory.
Then what you think is wrong.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 145 by Just being real, posted 05-03-2013 11:27 AM Just being real has not replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 305 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


(1)
Message 170 of 193 (698444)
05-07-2013 2:57 AM
Reply to: Message 169 by jbozz21
05-07-2013 12:08 AM


This is not helping your assertion that man evolved from a lesser species. That is not an improvement.
Plus a vitamin C producing gene DESTROYING mutation is not beneficial mutation that is selected for against those that don't have the mutation. If anything those without the vitamin c mutation are more fit than those without it. For many people you cannot get too much vitamin c and if you do you just pee it out. But in times of famine or plague high amounts of vitamin c would boost your immune system and make you more fit to overcome the infection.
If anything this only helps the idea that man was created and not evolved, because any organism not being able to produce vitamin c we would either be selected out or randomly mixed with others that can produce vitamin c. Those that can produce vitamin c would not be selected out of the population because they are not less fit. That goes against the theory of evolution.
You should wait until you know what the theory of evolution is before you start lecturing people on it.
Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 169 by jbozz21, posted 05-07-2013 12:08 AM jbozz21 has not replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 305 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


(1)
Message 183 of 193 (698719)
05-09-2013 2:46 AM
Reply to: Message 181 by Just being real
05-09-2013 2:21 AM


However specificity (anything identified to have a specific purpose or intent) is only observed coming from intelligent agents and is very useful in identifying something with an intelligent source.
Well, no. Because you have to find out if it has intent, i.e. an intelligent source, as a pre-condition for knowing if it was specified.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 181 by Just being real, posted 05-09-2013 2:21 AM Just being real has not replied

  
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