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Author Topic:   Increases in Genetic Information
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2134 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


(3)
Message 16 of 193 (697474)
04-25-2013 8:17 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by jbozz21
04-25-2013 6:50 PM


I don't mean to question all scientific studies, just obscure ones that really cannot be supported by any other scientific research.
Such as the theory of evolution, for example?
The truth is that there is bias in science, but the great thing about science is that there are at many times people with many different backgrounds and beliefs that can keep people in check that make false scientific studies. The problem lies when one person or group of persons performs a study but then it is not followed through by further validation or rebuttal by scientists without the same bias.
Oh, you had me going for a minute there--I thought you were talking about the theory of evolution. Evolution is a theory that has been studied for over 150 years by people from all over the world and in multiple fields of science, including some such as genetics that didn't exist 150 years ago. It is now considered one of the most solidly established scientific theories we have. It doesn't fit your comment at all!
The problem that I have is when people make claims that are not supported by solid scientific research done by many different people. I also have a problem when people begin making claims based upon half truths meant to skew the truth to their own beliefs, or even lie about the data or the interpretation of data which happens at times.
I agree with this entirely; the problem is that it does not apply to the science that we see practiced today but rather to various fringe studies and most particularly to creationists and other religious apologists. They fit your definition of a problem, while mainstream science does not.
I am just saying that nobody should trust obscure scientific data over common sense.
That is exactly wrong; the more obscure the scientific study the less likely it is for common sense to provide accurate answers. And those obscure scientific studies are almost always conducted by experts with decades of training and research, and who know more about their particular fields than anyone else. Yet, we still see amateurs untrained in those fields, and often untrained in any science, telling them they are wrong. That strikes me as rather silly, and I'm sure you'll agree.

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein
How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein
It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers

This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by jbozz21, posted 04-25-2013 6:50 PM jbozz21 has not replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2134 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 30 of 193 (697556)
04-27-2013 2:36 PM
Reply to: Message 29 by jbozz21
04-27-2013 2:31 PM


Macro-evolution
I feel like you people are just beating around the bush to avoid the real point, that there is no evidence to support the idea of macro-evolution. So you have to change the definitions to suite your theory.
And we went from Australopithecus to modern humans, how?
Sounds like macro-evolution to me.

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein
How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein
It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers

This message is a reply to:
 Message 29 by jbozz21, posted 04-27-2013 2:31 PM jbozz21 has not replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2134 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 57 of 193 (697595)
04-27-2013 9:13 PM
Reply to: Message 55 by jbozz21
04-27-2013 9:07 PM


Increase in genetic information
Back in Message 30 I brought up the differences between Australopithecus and modern humans as an example of macro-evolution.
A reminder, in case you have overlooked it.

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein
How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein
It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers

This message is a reply to:
 Message 55 by jbozz21, posted 04-27-2013 9:07 PM jbozz21 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 60 by jbozz21, posted 04-27-2013 9:19 PM Coyote has replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2134 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


(1)
Message 61 of 193 (697602)
04-27-2013 9:34 PM
Reply to: Message 60 by jbozz21
04-27-2013 9:19 PM


Re: Increase in genetic information
Back in Message 30 I brought up the differences between Australopithecus and modern humans as an example of macro-evolution.
No one can even prove what species that is. There is no genetic information. For all we know it could be classified as Human if it was still alive today. The fact that scientist classify this as a different species goes right to the heart of the species definition problem.
No, you can't just hand-wave away the evidence presented by many scientists, from many different fields, over many years. It takes more than a hand-wave from an amateur to disprove a scientific theory. It takes evidence!
Further, genetic information is not required to document macro-evolution, nor is science about "proof."
Here is a link to a nice presentation of the evidence for macro-evolution:
29+ Evidences for Macroevolution: The Scientific Case for Common Descent.
In the example I cited, the differences between Australopithecus, the species in between, and modern human constitute macro-evolution.
Do you have any evidence that this is not the case?

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein
How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein
It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers

This message is a reply to:
 Message 60 by jbozz21, posted 04-27-2013 9:19 PM jbozz21 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 63 by jbozz21, posted 04-27-2013 9:43 PM Coyote has replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2134 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


(1)
Message 67 of 193 (697613)
04-27-2013 10:54 PM
Reply to: Message 63 by jbozz21
04-27-2013 9:43 PM


Re: Increase in genetic information
In the example I cited, the differences between Australopithecus, the species in between, and modern human constitute macro-evolution.
Do you have any evidence that this is not the case?
There is not sufficient data to suggest that they are different species. It is arbitrary to suggest that they are different species than any living today. It is pointless to try an use this to prove macro-evolution.
You have cited no evidence, but just tried to hand-wave the findings of science away because you don't like the results.
And because you don't like the results of scientific research, you are forced to make unsupportable statements such as the above.
There is indeed sufficient evidence showing that Australopithecus, Homo erectus and modern humans are not the same species. Between Australopithecus and modern humans they aren't even the same genus!
That evidence is found in the technical journals, such as the following:
American Journal of Human Biology
American Journal of Human Genetics
American Journal of Physical Anthropology
The Anatomical Record Part A
Annals of Human Biology
Annals of Human Genetics
Annual Review of Genomics and Human Genetics
Anthropological Science
Anthropologie
L' Anthropologie
Archaeometry
Behavior Genetics
Behavioral Ecology and Sociobiology
Biological Psychology
Biology and Philosophy
BMC Evolutionary Biology
Current Anthropology
Current Biology
Economics and Human Biology
Ethnic and Racial Studies
European Journal of Human Genetics
Evolution and Human Behavior
Evolutionary Anthropology
Forensic Science International
Gene
Genetical Research
Genetics
Genome Research
Heredity
Homo
Human Biology
Human Heredity
Human Genetics
Human Genomics
Human Molecular Genetics
Human Mutation
International Journal of Osteoarchaeology
Journal of Anthropological Archaeology
Journal of Archaeological Science
Journal of Biosocial Science
Journal of Ethnic and Migration Studies
Journal of Human Evolution
Journal of Human Genetics
Journal of Molecular Evolution
Journal of the Royal Anthropological Institute
Molecular Biology and Evolution
Molecular Phylogenetics and Evolution
Nature
Nature Genetics
Nature Reviews Genetics
PLoS Biology
PLoS Genetics
Proceedings of The Royal Society: Biological Sciences
Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences
Russian Journal of Genetics
Science
Trends in Genetics
These journals fill floors of major libraries.
You can hand-wave, or even twitch your nose, all you want but this evidence is not going away no matter how much you wish it to.
What do you have to counter this evidence?

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein
How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein
It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers

This message is a reply to:
 Message 63 by jbozz21, posted 04-27-2013 9:43 PM jbozz21 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 68 by jbozz21, posted 04-27-2013 11:04 PM Coyote has replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2134 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


(1)
Message 72 of 193 (697620)
04-27-2013 11:57 PM
Reply to: Message 68 by jbozz21
04-27-2013 11:04 PM


Re: Increase in genetic information
Coyote, if this this thing is no longer alive and we don't have it's DNA. Tell me how in the world would we know that it is a different species?
Morphology, the same way things were done before the advent of DNA.
Isn't it about time you started presenting some evidence, instead of trying to hand-wave things away?

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein
How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein
It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers

This message is a reply to:
 Message 68 by jbozz21, posted 04-27-2013 11:04 PM jbozz21 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 78 by jbozz21, posted 04-28-2013 2:37 AM Coyote has not replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2134 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 128 of 193 (697740)
04-29-2013 12:18 PM
Reply to: Message 101 by Just being real
04-29-2013 1:19 AM


Re: BS on human evolution
Just to address one point in your long string of nonsense.
A question for you: What good are casts that are not accurate?
Do you really think scientists have any use for inaccurate casts? Do you think that the professionals who create these casts fail to measure their casts against the originals?
Also, do you have a source for the claim that the fossil casts failed to fit some enclosures at the American Museum of Natural History?

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein
How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein
It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers

This message is a reply to:
 Message 101 by Just being real, posted 04-29-2013 1:19 AM Just being real has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 131 by Dr Adequate, posted 04-29-2013 1:45 PM Coyote has not replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2134 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


(8)
Message 137 of 193 (697776)
04-30-2013 12:44 AM
Reply to: Message 119 by Just being real
04-29-2013 9:24 AM


Who's deceiving who?
And as I'm sure you already know, I followed someone else's error in poor choice of wording.
You accepted without bothering to check a standard creationist lie. That lie is all over the interwebs, and lives on because creationists assume it is true and uncritically pass it on without checking.
That lie is not alone. You should realize that creationist and fundamentalist websites are full of these deliberate lies. You do no credit to your arguments by blindly accepting them and passing them on. The rest of your post reflects this uncritical acceptance as well.
But does this error in wording mean that no scientists were ever deceived by Piltdown man?
A few were. Piltdown was a hoax, but it fooled primarily the British paleoanthropologists because it reinforced what they were looking for. The South African and other researchers didn't buy Piltdown because it didn't fit with what they were finding. Miller doubted the find by 1915, and Edmonds questioned it in 1925. By about 1932 Friedrichs and Weidenreich had both published their research suggesting the lower jaws and molars were that of an orang, and they were later proved correct. Most researchers were ignoring Piltdown by this time because it didn't fit.
And if that is true how exactly does that also undermine the fact that the public was deceived by Piltdown man along also with Pithecanthropus, Sinanthropus, Homo Habilis, Australopithecus, Ramapithecu, and Neanderthalensis?
You are mixing about five different things here, something like the classic Gish gallop.
Piltdown was a hoax that fooled some paleoanthropologists for 40 years, others for just a few, and some not at all. The public has nothing to do with any of this.
The rest of these--your case is nothing more than creationist nonsense. You are trying to disprove all of evolution because initial examinations of some specific finds are not what the profession eventually determined. That's where the research and study and peer review comes in, don't you know.
Some folks are great at finding fossils, while others are great at figuring out what they are. Those who find them have the rights to publish their interpretations first, then it's a free-for-all as everyone else weighs in. Louis Leakey is a classic example: a number of his initial interpretations were later revised. After a few years or decades there is a consensus reached as to where that particular fossil fits. All the while newspapers and magazines are grabbing headlines on anything they can.
Big deal--that's the way things work in science. But I guess this isn't good enough for creationists--they want instant, inerrant, answers.
But if you examine your own world, you'll find that there are some 40,000 different denominations, sects, and offshoots of Christianity, all believing they are the only ones with the TRVTH.
In science when there are disagreements, we use the evidence to settle them. It may take a while but that's the nature of things. With Christianity, if there are disagreements you just start a new sect or denomination, adding to that 40,000 number. Empirical evidence has nothing to do with belief, scripture, revelation, and interpretation. Given the state of your house, it looks rather silly of you to be picking on science until you can do better yourselves. At least we can correct our errors.
If you took a closer look at some of the paleoanthropological data, rather than rejecting it all automatically as fraudulent, you might be surprised at how consistent it is, and how it actually does contribute to a coherent understanding of our past. And the more recent genetic data fits right in as well. You can pick on a few examples, such as Piltdown, but that was corrected over 60 years ago!
Your argument really boils down to: some paleoanthropologists made some mistakes in the past, and although they have been corrected you're not going to believe a word of what they say no matter what because you're uninformed belief says otherwise.
Does that about sum it up?

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein
How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein
It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers

This message is a reply to:
 Message 119 by Just being real, posted 04-29-2013 9:24 AM Just being real has not replied

  
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