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Author Topic:   Fundamentalism versus Critical Thinking
Jazzns
Member (Idle past 3911 days)
Posts: 2657
From: A Better America
Joined: 07-23-2004


Message 29 of 159 (386279)
02-20-2007 5:16 PM
Reply to: Message 20 by purpledawn
02-20-2007 8:34 AM


Re: Needs of the People
What happens though if everyone who goes to the bowling alley starts believing something silly that has practical repricussions such as only bowlers get to have children. Do we still protect them from skepticism because their affiliation with bowling brings them comfort even though they continually and more sucessfully over time lobby to outlaw breeding by non-bowlers?
That I think is a better question than if religion is compatable with critical thinking. I could not care ANY LESS about a group of people who have some rational or irrational association with eachother to fill their basic need for belonging. It is ONLY when that belief spills out into society and has practical implications that such belief SHOULD NOT be immune to criticism and rational thought.
I have absolutly NO regard for Pat Robertson's sense of belonging when he derives practical dogma that if effective would take away my freedom. His fundamentalism is therefore fair game for rational criticism regardless of how fulfilled the bowling league....i mean.... 700 club is.

Of course, biblical creationists are committed to belief in God's written Word, the Bible, which forbids bearing false witness; --AIG (lest they forget)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by purpledawn, posted 02-20-2007 8:34 AM purpledawn has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 31 by purpledawn, posted 02-20-2007 6:09 PM Jazzns has not replied
 Message 33 by anastasia, posted 02-20-2007 8:27 PM Jazzns has replied

  
Jazzns
Member (Idle past 3911 days)
Posts: 2657
From: A Better America
Joined: 07-23-2004


Message 39 of 159 (386370)
02-21-2007 10:53 AM
Reply to: Message 33 by anastasia
02-20-2007 8:27 PM


Re: Needs of the People
This is my observation only, but it appears that you are confusing critical thinking on the part of the believer, with criticism of the believer.
I don't make the distinction. People who hold irrational religious beliefs are part of society too aren't they?
The only reason they are not critical of their own belief is because we have this notion that it is taboo to criticize things of faith in general. Self-criticism is just as important.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by anastasia, posted 02-20-2007 8:27 PM anastasia has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 42 by anastasia, posted 02-21-2007 12:24 PM Jazzns has replied

  
Jazzns
Member (Idle past 3911 days)
Posts: 2657
From: A Better America
Joined: 07-23-2004


Message 49 of 159 (386401)
02-21-2007 1:35 PM
Reply to: Message 42 by anastasia
02-21-2007 12:24 PM


Re: Needs of the People
I really don't understand this, no offense. Who are we talking about who doesn't criticize their own beliefs?
Pretty much most religious people. A good Christian friend of mine will be critical of attempts to sensor and restrict homosexual rights but would never question the base dogma that homosexuality is an abomination. That is why you get comments from moderate Christians such as, "As long as they don't shove it in my face they should be able to do whatever they want."
The critical answer is that Leviticus and Paul were wrong.
How is that dependent on whatever notion society has about non-criticism?
It is taboo. If I say your belief in fairies is irrational then I am on firm ground. But if I say your belief the Apocalypse is irrational I am intolerant despite very good critical reason why the concept of the Apocalypse is irrational.
Remember, 'why do you seek the speck in your brother's eye, while you have a beam in your own'? (something like that). That is a direct call to self-criticism.
A call that very few if any religious people actually do.
Now, my question for you, was; Do you believe that a person who has an 'irrational' belief is not a critical thinker?
With regards to their religion yes! A very good friend of mine is an engineer. If he couldn't think critically he would never have made it through college. But he completely abandons his skepticism with regards to religion. He can go to work every day to work on radioactive chemistry and still claim that radiometric dating is wrong because God says so.
Do you seperate your criticism of religion from a believer's criticism of religion?
No. I thought that was clear. When I talk about critical thinking I am talking about society and religious people are part of society. Society has these taboos and those include self-criticism.

Of course, biblical creationists are committed to belief in God's written Word, the Bible, which forbids bearing false witness; --AIG (lest they forget)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 42 by anastasia, posted 02-21-2007 12:24 PM anastasia has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 50 by Phat, posted 02-21-2007 1:52 PM Jazzns has not replied
 Message 58 by anastasia, posted 02-21-2007 11:07 PM Jazzns has replied

  
Jazzns
Member (Idle past 3911 days)
Posts: 2657
From: A Better America
Joined: 07-23-2004


Message 103 of 159 (386815)
02-23-2007 8:01 PM
Reply to: Message 58 by anastasia
02-21-2007 11:07 PM


Re: Needs of the People
The critical answer is that Leviticus and Paul could be wrong. And people who have religion can admit that, while obviously it is hard for people who have no religion to admit they could be right.
The problem is that a large number of people won't even consider that possibility. They will claim tolerance of homosexuality without ever renouncing the homosexuality taboo. Of course this is all my anecdotal opinion before you start demanding statistics.
Don't mind this particular example, the important thing is that there are no critical 'amswers'. Critical thinking is a process that may lead to an answer, that's all.
Yea, and the answer after thinking critically about the problem is the root taboo of homosexuality stemming from an ancient book of myth is causing a lot of grief for innocent people in modern society. Who are you to decide there can be no such thing as a 'critical answer'?
Jazzns writes:
It is taboo. If I say your belief in fairies is irrational then I am on firm ground. But if I say your belief the Apocalypse is irrational I am intolerant despite very good critical reason why the concept of the Apocalypse is irrational.
Again, critical thinking can only get you so far as to say that the concept of the Apocalypse is untested and unknown. What you do from there is all belief.
My point which you ENTIRELY evaded is that no one is going to question me for being critical of a belief in fairies. But people will call me intolerant if I portray the same criticism to apocalyptic doctrine.
Compare these two:
"I think your belief in fairies is unfounded and is a mere delusion rooted in fantasy."
"I think your belief in the second coming is unfounded and is a mere delusion rooted in fantasy."
Which one is more or less appropriate at the dinner table? You may say neither. I think that the first one is entirely more acceptable in the current climate.
I don't understand at all. But seriously, society say that self-criticism is taboo? Now you sound like a fundy.
Ahh, so now the ad-hom begins? How did I get you so riled up?
I don't know how many times in the course of my religious education I was told to, "just have faith" when a question of applying religion to practical matters of life. Of course it is taboo to self-criticize! That is how religions work! At least that is how it is for the Abrahamic faiths. If in church they actually TAUGHT people to be self-critical of their religious beliefs then IMO the pews would slowly but surely empty. But that is no worry because the messages being delivered are all the equivalent of spiritual masturbation.
Now before you ask again, no I don't have any statistics but then again I am not the one making the positive claim that people are self-critical because their religion tells them too. Someone else made that claim....who could it be...hmm??
Now, is it fair for me to say that all atheists are not critical of themselves because they don't have to fear God watching in secret?
Are you trying to claim that atheists don't self-criticize their lack of belief? Either way, it is totally beside the point. Atheists don't have preachers on projection screens telling them not to question their atheism.
Of course not, but you can't just make bare assertions from an unrealistic bias against religion.
Atheism is not a religion, it is the absence of religion. Your point makes no sense.
It is very possible to think critically AND have a religion.
Yes of course. I even gave an example of that in my last post. You must not have read it and decided to reply anyway.

Of course, biblical creationists are committed to belief in God's written Word, the Bible, which forbids bearing false witness; --AIG (lest they forget)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 58 by anastasia, posted 02-21-2007 11:07 PM anastasia has not replied

  
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