No I don't. I don't give a stuff about 'good things ahead.' I don't need them or want them.
I'm simply saying that if this God actually existed and if he needed to give a message to the world, sending his son to earth to die for us then not leaving a scrap of evidence that it actually happened is simply not credible.
It's also perfectly stupid thing to do - a schoolchild could think up dozens of better methods of getting what is apparently a critical message to us.
Why does it have to be like that? If God wants to give a message, does he need to accommodate to your or anybody's requirements?
The Bible is hard to understand. I don't know, but maybe God wants people to look for him with all their hearts. You are more likely to appreciate that which is hard to get
Well presumably if God wanted to give us an important message, he'd want to give the message in the best possible way so that everybody can understand it. Why would he do it any other way? Why make it impossible to believe?
Who says the best possible way is necessarily the easiest way for all of us to understand? Don’t you feel more proud of yourself when you achieve something that was hard for you? Don’t you value it more? I already answered your question in my last post but I’ll try again, and like I said, I don’t know but maybe we will value more the message if we had to work hard to understand it. It’s not impossible, but is not easy at all
The bible is very easy to understand. It was written for primitive, simple people in a story telling manner. It's only hard to understand when modern people are trying to make it fit into their reality - they know it doesn't work so they have to dissemble and contrive a fit.
I think you are underestimating the Bible. And what makes you think those people were simple? What make us “less simple”? Technology? Our life is more fancy but we had the advantage of the knowledge accumulated through much more generations. By the way we also have created a lot of problems, haven’t we? What if they were smarter than us? What if they saw things we didn’t? You think the Bible is simple because you look at the surface, but you have to dig deeper to find it’s richness and that takes hard work. You don’t seem to be interested in the Bible, and that’s ok, you don’t have to like it; but if you ever try hard to look for God’s message in it, I’m sure you’ll find it
Well I'd start with the entire teaching profession, then work outwards. It's obviously absurd to say that the harder the message is to understand the easier it is to understand.
You seem to give to "best" and "easy" the same meaning
God's message isn't an IQ test - it's supposed to be universal.
It's universal as is available for anybody who wants to get it. It is not about IQ, it is about give your best to learn from God
Well they lived 2000 years ago, it's normally regarded modern people know rather more than they did
But that doesn't make them less smart. They could've had less knowledge in, say, technology than us, but they could've been more skilled than us at the moment of using their own knowledge. And like I said they could've seen things we didn't
I understand the bible perfectly. It's a simple book of stories. Having to look further actually means giving a different meaning to the actual words. A believer could find 'god's message' in car repair manual - that's hardly the point.
It seems to me that if you read a car repair manual with the same interest that you put in reading the Bible, all you will learn from the whole manual is how to check the engine oil level
Now have a think - if you wanted to give a universal message to the world, would you do it this way?
Again, it is not about how would I or you give a universal message, but how God has done it. If you wanted to understand God's message you'd need to accommodate to His way of talking, not the other way around. You look at it from your own logic and biases, you would need and easy message in order to believe, one that you wouldn't need to work hard to get it, and that I think, is not gonna happen
Mark 16:16 "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned."
And where exactly does it says that "damned" means burn in hell forever? That's what I was asking
Messgaes such as this?
Leviticus 20:13 "If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them."
This is God's message? That disagrees with most decent people's morality.
That's not "God's message". God's message is in the whole Bible, is much more than that. There are many tough passages like that one, which I don't like either, but are there for a reason which I hope to understand one day. But from the little things I can get from the Bible is more than enough for me to realize that God loves us and wants us to be happy
They could've been 500 feet tall, but I'm betting they weren't. Come on, they were iron age, poor, superstitious and illiterate.
You are betting on their intellectual abilities and assuming they were ignorant, and clearly underestimating them. But there's no way you can know you are right or wrong on your bet
Since when is something that is hard to learn the best? The harder something is the fewer people will understand it. The message is supposed to be universally understood.
Why are all arguments put by believers back to front? I'm saying that if this god needed to give mankind the most important message it's possible to get and give it to everyone, he needed to do it in a much better way than he actually did. That isn't a 'knowing the mind of god' problem, it's a knowing the 'mind of man' problem. Any idiot could have done a better job.
I think we are going in circles here. You are saying pretty much what you had already said. I understand your point but I disagree and I think I've been clear enough explaining my own opinion, so is nothing else I need to add at this stage
How can you say that: have you even read the Bible? Philippians 4:3 And I intreat thee also, true yokefellow, help those women which laboured with me in the gospel, with Clement also, and with other my fellowlabourers, whose names are in the book of life. People who follow Jesus are entered into the Book of Life. Revelation 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. If you are not reading the whole bible you cannot fully understand that Jesus in his mercy sends many, many people to Hell. Weasel words won't change a factual document. Saying that you do not understand the difficult bits does not mean that when your god says he wants those gays dead that that is not exactly what it means
I have read the Bible from cover to cover once, long time ago and I have started again. I’ve also heard some of the passages in the church or through videos, friends, etc. I am far from being expert on the Bible, but I’m on track. If you read the Bible you can find out God’s plan of salvation for yourself, and understand that Jesus loves you and died for you. But you seem to be busy looking for reasons to hate it God doesn’t want anybody to die, He wants anybody to be saved. But let’s say you later on happen to find out that God created you and gave you life and died to pay for your sins. If you get to know this and you still consciously reject Him, if you consciously reject Him who gave you life, what can you expect?…..to die, maybe?
Well yes we are, that's because you're saying some straight forwardly wrong things - hard to understand messages are the best way of communicating and iron age, uneducated, illiterate, primitive tribal people are as knowledgeable as we are.
But hey-ho, that's the way the believer's mind appears to work.
That's not what I said; what I said is far more elaborated and it's all in my previous posts. But if you like to reduce everything to some few words at your convenience, then I can say that for you all people of the past is stupid and only things that are easy to understand are true
But obviously Larni has not found this out. S/he has heard it, sure. That's different. You can no more say that Larni has "found out" and "got to know" that these things are true than a Muslim could say that you have "found out" and "got to know" that there is no God but Allah and Muhammad is his prophet. You have heard it alleged, but you have not found out that it's true. You did not "get to know this", you just got to hear it. Merely hearing it does not produce knowledge or even conviction. Well, the same is true of your religion. And I don't see how one can be morally culpable for not believing things that one does not in fact know.
Yeah, Larni hasn't found out, that's why I said: "let's say you later on happen to find out" and also: "if you consciously reject Him", and I said "consciously" twice, so I don't see how your reply is pertinent here
What you are doing is ignoring what the bibles says (in my example that gay people should be killed) because it conflicts with your personal image of God
No, I'm not ignoring it, what I said, if you go back and read my post, is that I don't understand why that passage is there but that it must be there for a reason. Did you realize when I said that I didn't like that passage either? But I cannot Judge God and rule Him down just because I don't like passages like that, and as I recognized myself there are many of those in the Bible
You don't agree with what the bible says God wants to happen to gay people so you undergo mental gymnastics so that your personal God is the same as the God depicted in the bible (the only source of information we have about God)
No, that's just what you expect me to do 'cause you don't seem to be paying attention to my posts
You are defining God as having the same morality as you do. What you should be doing is adhearing to the morality of God (in this case wanting gay people dead)
Not because that's what says in the Bible it means that I have to want gay people dead; I don't. Even if that's what God wanted I don't. I wish passages like that were not in the Bible, it would be easier, but they are there, and I'm doing the best I can to deal with them. God knows why those passages are there, I don't, and I won't judge Him. Fortunately Jesus Christ said (John 8: 7-8): "He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her". So I rely on God's mercy on all of us, and won't throw stones at others when I am as much a sinner as they are
Think about your religion for a bit and you will see the true nature of God
Perfect, wise, loving, pure, merciful, beautiful. Can't think of enough words to describe Him
Well you could say that, but then you'd be wrong about that too, wouldn't you?
Two wrongs just make you wrong twice
No, I'd be just playing your game. Since you can't offer a solid argument, answer all my questions ignoring some for your convenience and recognize that somebody can disagree with you but still have a point, all you can do is play silly games
How can one consciously reject something that has not been established by the person in question.
No, you can't. That's what I mean, if you reject God without knowing Him, I don't think He'll kill you for that
Of course not. I can only consciously reject what I have previously accepted. The bible does state that God is in the hearts of all men regardless of whether we have heard of him but how do I know that you are not ignoring that part of the bible because it is as 'difficult' as Lev 20:13?
So you see, going by the bible I have no leg to stand on and will go to Hell for ever for my rejection of him: unless (in your version of Christiainty) that bit can be ignored like the killing gays bit.
Why do you keep on saying that I'm ignoring the text in Leviticus? What am I supposed to do about that text? going by the Bible you do stand, but you need to study it. Besides, I don't know where the idea of an eternity in Hell comes from. The texts you quoted before don't say anything about it. It seems to me more that those people who took an INFORMED decision and rejected God will die forever, just cease to exist
Correct: so the we may know that God wants gays dead
He doesn't want anybody dead. But He has an order, and breaking it has consequences. Death entered the world because of our disobedience to his order, so all this death our world experiences is our fault, not His
But where do you get these ideas that God is like this from? If it is from the Bible you must also include 'hates gays', 'condones incest' and 'kills children'.
If not, why not.
I get these ideas from the Bible and from my life experience. And no, I wouldn't include the ones you say, God doesn't hate gays nor anybody else, He loves us all. You are keen on pointing to those examples like the one of the gays but you don't see that God himself died for all of us in the cross..
condones incest? are you talking about Adam and Eve, or all people before the exodus, for that matter? The creation in the beginning was perfect. After Adam and Eve the decaying started and has increased to this day. Until certain point in history, children from brother and sister or close relatives wouldn't experience the diseases they do now kills children? quote that one for me, please
You say I should understand the Bible: I understand what it says and I have read it (being an atheist I find I often know a lot more than many Christians).
I'm sorry but I don't really think you know that much about the Bible. You may be able to quote every single passage but if you cannot find anything good your knowledge is vain. You can quote many texts where God appears as a cruel being, let's say He is. Let's say He has wanted all those people dead, but He also died Himself for the whole world. Even if you don't believe, if you think God is just a fictional character, don't you think He has much more good than evil when sacrificing Himself to save everybody? Suppose, again within the context of a Bible as a fictional story, that all that people who died under God's law were saved from a much worse fate if they lived a little bit more. They died, but at the end God died Himself to save them