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Author Topic:   Is the Bible the inerrant word of God? Or is it the words of men?
Stile
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Posts: 3846
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004
Member Rating: 1.7


(2)
Message 11 of 2241 (700090)
05-30-2013 8:30 AM
Reply to: Message 7 by PaulGL
05-29-2013 2:09 PM


Bible doesn't provide a better method for anything
PaulGL writes:

Rousseau, one of the most respected minds of the Renaissance, had this to say: 'Either the Bible was written by men who were inspired by God- or they were gods themselves, for it is too profound to be a mere work of man'. If your opinion differs from his, then how does your capability and objectivity stack up against Rousseau's?

Much better.
Because whoever said this isn't using objectivity at all. There is nothing objective in the quote. It is a subjective claim about the Bible being "profound." In order for it to be objective, a strict measurement system for "profound" would be required, and then some sort of proof showing that man is incapable of such a level of "profound-ness."

Lastly, I would point out that the prophetic part (as in prediction) of the Bible HAS & IS coming true.

No. This is wrong and always has been.

You will see this with your own eyes regardless of your opinions.

Actually, what we've always seen with our own eyes, regardless of our opinions, is that the Bible is not factual, and there is no such thing as The Biblical Apocalypse/End Times or The Rapture. They're just made up.

For details, email me.

If you'd like to back up your statements objectively, you can do so here any time you're able.
So far, you aren't doing very well.

The Bible is not inerrant, it is most definitely the words of men.
This is shown beyond the shadow of a doubt merely because of the non-significance of any group of Bible believers.

Take any general group of Bible believers...
They are not special.
They are not happier.
They are not richer.
They are not more loved.
They are not more loving.

They're just the same as everybody else.

That's why the Bible isn't inspired.
If it was inspired, there should be some sort of discernible difference to be found.

So far, the only way we've found to make progress in this world is through objective observations. The Bible simply fails to measure up to this standard or to provide a better one.

Edited by Stile, : This was the only the only edit.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by PaulGL, posted 05-29-2013 2:09 PM PaulGL has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 13 by PaulGL, posted 05-30-2013 11:08 AM Stile has responded

    
Stile
Member
Posts: 3846
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004
Member Rating: 1.7


(1)
Message 15 of 2241 (700106)
05-30-2013 11:28 AM
Reply to: Message 13 by PaulGL
05-30-2013 11:08 AM


Re: Bible doesn't provide a better method for anything
PaulGL writes:

It has been realized by students of the Bible for more than a hundred years (Footnote #305, published in 1876) that the parable of the fig tree meant that Israel would become a nation again.

...

Israel became a nation again on May 14, 1948.

Prophecies... you're doing them wrong.
It has been realized by all the other students for far longer than a hundred years that this prophecy is bogus.
Eventual prophecies are not prophecies.
Which student predicted it would happen on May 14th, even, regardless of the year?
Or what about in the year of 1948, regardless of the day?
Anyone actually get the time remotely close in their "prophecy"?

Almost certainly this was the star that the Wisemen followed, and it was the tail of Halley's comet that was used by God to point their way.

More likely that it was just a story.

My prophecy:
Halley's comet wasn't even visible by the Bethlehem hemisphere during that period.

Now I'll look it up.
Google: halley comet Bethlehem star
Oh, what do we have here?

quote:
In fact, contrary to popular belief, the period of the comet over the last 2000 years is almost exactly 77 years and it was soon realised that Halley had returned a few years too early. In fact, the Chinese observed Comet Halley in August and September of 12 BC and left quite a detailed description of its appearance.

What the Star of Bethlehem Was Not


Whoops. Looks like you missed again.

You: 0 Correct, 2 Wrong.
Me: 1 Correct, 0 Wrong.

But, really, who cares about Biblical prophecies? All they do is make God look like he can't get anything right.

The reason why the Bible is known to be written by man is because it doesn't provide any results different from any other man-made creation.

If the Bible was divinely-inspired... then there would be some result that sets it apart.

Maybe all Bible-readers would be:
smarter?
kinder?
more good looking?
friendlier?
less gullible?

But... nope. All Bible-readers are exactly the same as all other man-made results.
Varied and insignificant.

Maybe Vegeta is God. At least his results are beyond human. They're over 9000.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by PaulGL, posted 05-30-2013 11:08 AM PaulGL has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 16 by PaulGL, posted 05-30-2013 1:32 PM Stile has responded

    
Stile
Member
Posts: 3846
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004
Member Rating: 1.7


(1)
Message 18 of 2241 (700130)
05-30-2013 2:38 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by PaulGL
05-30-2013 1:32 PM


Have fun
All I can say- and with best wishes for your well being is : that I hope that these prophetic events take place while you are still alive to witness them. And that doing so will cause you to look for something deeper than your self.

Thank-you for the well wishes, they are always appreciated.
But I'm not sure if they're warranted, I know that many things exist that are deeper than myself and my current knowledge, I seek them out constantly.

For me, the Bible simply isn't deep enough.
However, I do hope that you've found what you're looking for.

Humans are a strange bunch, what works for some never seems to work for all.
That's another mark that the Bible was written by man:

The Bible is all that is required for some. Just not for all.
If it was divinely inspired, there would be no barrier it could not cross.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by PaulGL, posted 05-30-2013 1:32 PM PaulGL has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 21 by PaulGL, posted 05-30-2013 4:06 PM Stile has responded

    
Stile
Member
Posts: 3846
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004
Member Rating: 1.7


(1)
Message 29 of 2241 (700226)
05-31-2013 10:13 AM
Reply to: Message 21 by PaulGL
05-30-2013 4:06 PM


Thanks for another reason that the Bible is written by man
There is only ONE way to determine the Truth, and is not within the capacity of the mind nor in the sphere of knowledge.

This is something you need to show. You seem unable to do that.
If you can show this to be valid, many people would be interested in your results.

So far, the best method we've ever come across for learning about Truth is the scientific method.
It's produced the best results.
Your statement has produced no results. Therefore, it is inferior.

Fortunately, God practices KISS

No he doesn't.
KISS = Keep It Simple Stupid = The engineer's practical version of Occam's Razor.
If God is anything, He is complicated.

If He is real and available, then you can receive Him. How? KISS. "The same Lord is rich unto ALL who CALL upon His name".

This would be simple (KISS), but it doesn't work, so it isn't.

He is omnipresent and will respond to His name.

There is nothing simple about omnipresence.

Do this out loud (in the privacy of your room, if preferred). Just tell Him: "Lord, help my unbelief. I want to know You".

Again, you provide another proof that the Bible is the word of man and not divinely inspired.

This very method has been done by many, many people.
It is done openly, willingly, lovingly, respectfully, meekly, humbly and with all their hearts.

Some get a response.
Some do not get a response.

But... the part that really shows that the Bible is the word of man and not divine is:
Even those who get a response do not show any signs of change or any shift away from those who do not get a response.

They do not experience any feelings reserved just for them.
They do not experience any specific feelings more deeply.
They are not happier.
They are not kinder.
They are not more forgiving.
They are not more loving.
They are not smarter.
They are not better looking.
They do not have more money.
They are not more athletic.
They are not luckier.
They do not avoid accidents better.
They do not get hurt less.
They are not more free.
They are not less gullible.
And they certainly do not gain a better sense of fashion.

All Christians show us, definitively, that even if you do feel like you get a response... it doesn't do anything anyway.
It is, in fact, no different at all then simply imagining that you got a response.

That is what shows beyond the shadow of a doubt that the Bible is nothing more than the works of man.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by PaulGL, posted 05-30-2013 4:06 PM PaulGL has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 32 by Thugpreacha, posted 06-14-2013 12:35 PM Stile has responded

    
Stile
Member
Posts: 3846
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 30 of 2241 (700228)
05-31-2013 10:26 AM
Reply to: Message 27 by PaulGL
05-30-2013 10:12 PM


People are Different
I. Divine Purpose

Granted the existence and reality of God, let us consider the following extremely relevant question: What would an omniscient, omnipresent, and omnipotent being, knowing, having, and being capable of anything and everything, possibly want? The only possible thing that such a being would want would be an entity, perfectly complementary to Him, that was His of its own choice, and not out of necessity.

And another point that the Bible is not divine, but man-made. Do you have more?

Why would an omniscient, omnipresent and omnipotent being want an entity perfectly complementary to Him?
They wouldn't, they wouldn't want or desire anything at all.

Who do we know that spends it's life wanting an entity that is perfectly complementary to themselves?
Humans!

This is nothing more than another proof that your ideas about the Bible are man-made, and not divinely inspired.

A rational, informed person must despise religion- and hate it because it is the most destructive cultural force in man's history.

This is not true.
A rational person should be able to identify that people are different.
This would then inform them that religion would be a great thing for some people, and a bad thing for others.

Therefore, a rational, informed person would accept religion as a wonderful tool that helps many people. Just not some universal tool that helps all people... because it doesn't. History has proven this to us many, many times by means of many, many unnecessary deaths.

"Religion" isn't the problem.
The problem is being able to identify when to apply religion.

"People" in the general sense are extremely broad and varied.
If a carpenter went to work on some extremely broad and varied jobs... do you think he would only pack one tool for the day?
Go-Go-Gadget People-Fixer!!


This message is a reply to:
 Message 27 by PaulGL, posted 05-30-2013 10:12 PM PaulGL has not yet responded

    
Stile
Member
Posts: 3846
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004
Member Rating: 1.7


(1)
Message 33 of 2241 (701253)
06-14-2013 12:59 PM
Reply to: Message 32 by Thugpreacha
06-14-2013 12:35 PM


No Results
Phat writes:

I seem to make better decisions now that I pray more often, though I cant prove it.

My point isn't that "nothing good happens to believers."
My point is that "nothing better happens to believers when compared to non-believers."

You may very well make better decisions now.
But you don't make decisions better than non-believers as a whole.

And there are non-believers that make better decisions after renouncing prayer and blaspheming the Holy Spirit over and over again.
But they don't make decisions better than believers as a whole.

My point is that there are no significant results in either direction.
This indicates, very strongly, that there's no difference at all between the two groups. The reason there is no difference is because there is no God to make a difference.

If there was a God answering prayers... even if He doesn't answer all prayers, but just some... there would be some slight advantage to praying. But we don't see this.
Praying produces exactly the same results as not-praying or even "counter-praying" (blaspheming).

This can possibly be explained by various things:
"God works in mysterious ways."
"God does not like to be tested."
"The works of God are not like the works of Man."
"God will reward us in the afterlife."
"God actually hates people."
"God actually sends everyone to Hell, believers and unbelievers, because He changed His mind and just doesn't care anymore."
"God is on vacation, He might be back in a few millennia."

Or, it can fully be explained by a very simple explanation:
God does not exist.
The reason there's no difference between believers and non-believers is simply because there is no difference. Because belief in a being that does not exist will never create a difference.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by Thugpreacha, posted 06-14-2013 12:35 PM Thugpreacha has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 34 by Thugpreacha, posted 06-17-2013 10:11 AM Stile has responded

    
Stile
Member
Posts: 3846
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004
Member Rating: 1.7


(2)
Message 36 of 2241 (701339)
06-17-2013 12:01 PM
Reply to: Message 34 by Thugpreacha
06-17-2013 10:11 AM


Results of the Wolf
Phat writes:

Here you go off on a conclusion, again. Sometimes its the things that one "doesn't" see that make a difference. What ever am I going to do with you, Stile?

I can think of two ways to take your response. I'll respond to both positions, just let me know which one is the one you're talking about:

1 - The difference exists, Phat can see it but Stile can't
Then my response to you is simple... what is this difference?
Can you explain it or identify it in any way whatsoever? You don't even have to use physical evidence. Just describe it the best way you know how.
I haven't heard of anyone even hint at any sort of difference between believers and non-believers that isn't simply personal to them. And everyone has a "difference" that is personal to them, this isn't the kind of result I'm talking about (more on this below).

2 - The difference exists, but no one can see it because that's just the way it is
Then my response is a simple question:
If no one can see it, how does anyone know it's even there?

(I'm assuming that by "see" the difference you mean anything such as feeling it, sensing it or distinguishing it by any means whatsoever).

Lots of people say there's one (like you have here), but they don't want to (or possibly cannot) show it to anyone else.
Reminds me a lot about the story of the boy who cried wolf.
You keep saying "There's a difference! There's a difference!"
But whenever a crowd gathers to actually see what you're talking about, you never seem to move on to the part about actually describing this difference and showing that it is, indeed, impossible to obtain otherwise.

Phat writes:

Stile writes:

If there was a God answering prayers... even if He doesn't answer all prayers, but just some... there would be some slight advantage to praying. But we don't see this.

No... you don't see this. There is no "we" in this argument, concerning a set that includes both you and I.

I think you're bypassing my point again.
I'm not talking about something personal.
I think it's quite possible that Phat may get some benefit from prayer.
In fact, if my mom was sick, I would pray for her because I know that she would get some benefit from that.

This isn't the effect I'm talking about, though.

This here is something personal to you and something similar to my mom.

The thing is... if someone ardently believes that snapping crosses in half and burning Bibles is helpful for their cause... then these actions would also help them in the same way that the praying helps you and my mom.

This is what I mean by "no results" and "no difference."

This can be explained by saying God doesn't care about praying or blaspheming. Or it could be that God just doesn't exist.

But there's lots more than just praying.

Reading the Bible.
Going to church.
Following Jesus.
Being a christian.
Having faith in God.

...all these things have a non-God counterpart that produces the exact same results with no difference.

Maybe God doesn't care about praying.
Maybe God doesn't care about reading the Bible.
Maybe God doesn't care about going to church.
Maybe God doesn't care about following Jesus.
Maybe God doesn't care about being a Christian.
Maybe God doesn't care about having faith in God.

Or, for one statement that covers everything... maybe God just doesn't exist.
It does seem much simpler.

The act of praying or having faith for believers just doesn't provide a difference in comparison to things like wishing or stubbornness for non-believers.

This points us towards the fact that there's nothing special about praying or having faith or wishing or stubbornness. They are all personal-constructs for personal growth. It doesn't matter what the personal-construct is or if it has any quantifiable "powers", what matters is that the personal construct connects personally with the individual using the tool.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by Thugpreacha, posted 06-17-2013 10:11 AM Thugpreacha has acknowledged this reply

    
Stile
Member
Posts: 3846
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 101 of 2241 (738006)
10-03-2014 2:57 PM
Reply to: Message 100 by djufo
10-02-2014 8:15 PM


All in the same boat
djufo writes:

far as what the Bible says, yes, is the word of the Gods. Ancient scribes serving for them were instructed to write in clay tablets.

Nope. I sometimes wish it were so... but it's not.
They were only mistaken.

How do I know? Because believing in God doesn't make a difference.
I mean, it does make a difference to an individual... that's not what I'm talking about.
(Not believing in God also makes a difference to an individual... so it's not really proof of anything one way or another).

What I'm talking about is that if you take a-big-group-of-people-who-believe-in-God and compare them with a-big-group-of-people-who-don't-believe-in-God... there's no difference between them.

And if God exists, He would make a difference. At least for something. Otherwise, He wouldn't be "God" by any definition humans have ever used.

quote:
The Bible is not inerrant, it is most definitely the words of men.
This is shown beyond the shadow of a doubt merely because of the non-significance of any group of Bible believers.

Take any general group of Bible believers...
They are not special.
They are not happier.
They are not richer.
They are not more loved.
They are not more loving.

They're just the same as everybody else.

That's why the Bible isn't inspired.
If it was inspired, there should be some sort of discernible difference to be found.

Message 11



This message is a reply to:
 Message 100 by djufo, posted 10-02-2014 8:15 PM djufo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 102 by djufo, posted 10-04-2014 11:25 AM Stile has responded

    
Stile
Member
Posts: 3846
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 119 of 2241 (738249)
10-07-2014 9:46 AM
Reply to: Message 102 by djufo
10-04-2014 11:25 AM


Re: All in the same boat
djufo writes:

The ancient texts were never written in "belief". The were written in knowledge of what was going on in those days which by the way, were bizarre times. Unimaginable and incomprehensible for the vast majority of average mortals. Hence the "disbelief"

It really doesn't matter how they were written.
The facts of reality show that what was written (regardless of how) is wrong. The Bible doesn't make the smallest degree of difference for human prosperity when viewed across the groups of people it affects.

There's simply no difference between bible believers and atheists when looked at as entire groups.

Both groups include some people that are very happy, and others that are very sad.
Neither group is obviously happier or sadder than the other... they're just both human.
Both groups include some people that are spiritually enlightened, and others that are spiritually empty.
Neither group is obviously more or less spiritually enlightened than the other... they're just both human.
Both groups include rich people and poor people.
Neither group is obviously richer or poorer than the other... they're just both human.
Both groups include smart people and dumb people.
Neither group is obviously smarter or dumber than the other... they're just both human.

Even if the bible was written with knowledge... it doesn't matter, it was wrong.
The facts are undeniable.
The facts stare us all in the face every day.
The Bible does not help all humans have a better life.
The Bible will help a few humans have a better life.
Atheism does not help all humans have a better life.
Atheism will help a few humans have a better life.
We are all human, we all must find our way.

For some, that way will be the Bible... those people should follow the Bible. Those people should not try to convince others to follow the Bible, because it is a fact that the Bible does not work for everyone.

For some, that way will be atheism... those people should be atheists. Those people should not try to convince others to become atheists, because it is a fact that atheism does not work for everyone.

For some, that way will be something else... those people should figure out what that thing is and stick with it. Those people should not try to convince others to do the same thing, because whatever it is... it is a fact that it will not work for everyone.

People are different.
We are all human.
Find your thing, stick with it.
Stop trying to convince others that 'your thing' is somehow the best and works for everyone.
It isn't, and it doesn't.
If you're unhappy... change your thing.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 102 by djufo, posted 10-04-2014 11:25 AM djufo has not yet responded

    
Stile
Member
Posts: 3846
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 1790 of 2241 (748032)
01-22-2015 10:17 AM


By Their Fruits
The Bible is the word of men.

If the Bible was the Word of God, it would impart some extra detail, some trail-of-Godliness that would be differentiable from the placebo effect.

We don't see this.
After thousands of years, and billions of Bible followers.
After millions of different possibilities on translations and how they should be interpreted.

Not a single trail-of-Godliness is left on any Bible believer from any time.
Not a single piece of Godly knowledge has ever been found.

All meaningful knowledge gleamed from the Bible can be equally obtained from non-Biblical sources.
All human improvements and life aspirations that can come from the Bible can be equally obtained through other non-Biblical motivations or even just placebo effects.

Even the intangibles... the hope of things to come, the fear of evil, the unconditional love... all can be obtained without the Bible and without God in equal (and sometimes higher) levels.

The Bible can be helpful, and beneficial, as are many other man-made things.
The Bible can help one gain confidence and the strength to carry on in life.
Just like friends and family can for others.
Both are man made.

All you have to do to show that the Bible is the word of God is to show a difference that the Bible made that is not possible to be done with non-Biblical means.

Show a group of Bible-believing people that is healthier and personally glorified in a way that is unattainable by non Bible-believers.
Show how they have more "good luck" and less "bad luck" or how they deal with situations better than non Bible-believers.

Of course, such a task is impossible because such a group does not exist.
If such a group actually did exist, other people would notice. Then they would try it, then they too would see the results and stick with it.

But, this isn't ever what we see.
What we see is people claiming to have such things. Then other people notice the claims and they give it a shot anyway. However, things don't work as they were claimed. And then everyone realizes that it's just another group of people living the best way they know how... by the words of men. They claim that their "words of men" are actually "words of God" but when push comes to shove, their claims all fall down. Real claims of God would not fall down. Real claims of God would always be successful, and attract more and more and more people forever as they would be stronger than words of men.

The Bible has been given it's chance (thousands of years). Just as the old Roman and Greek Gods were given their chance.
They have been measured, and found wanting. After all this time of millions of people trying their best... there are no detectable differences that actually make them "better". Some certainly are good. But only as good as other words of men. Nothing that separates them to being "better" than the words of men or even a placebo effect.

There is, however, something they carry that can be shown to make them much, much worse than the words of men.
We know that the words of men can be wrong. That's why we test and verify and are hesitant with the words of men all the time.
When you claim that something is the Word of God... many people remove that testing and verification. They follow the words without hesitation... even though they really are words of men, just the belief that they are the Words of God is enough to remove any doubts.
Now we have groups of people thinking they have the Word of God when they really have only words of men. And you know the consequences. They can be as dire as mass cult deaths and ongoing abuse (including children). Nothing good comes from believing you have the Word of God when you actually only have the word of men.

The Bible had it's chance. Billions of people have spent a long time dedicating their lives to the words on those papers. None of them have produced anything that can be identified as different from the words of men or the placebo effect.

It's over. The Bible will fade away as all other words of men have as it's stubborn members grow old and die off.

Hopefully, this time, we will stick with the words of men and identify them as the words of men.
As long as we know we're dealing with the words of men, we will continue to test them and verify them and make sure we're not going off the deep end. Such checks and balances simply do not exist with any claimed "Words of God."


Replies to this message:
 Message 1792 by Faith, posted 01-22-2015 10:22 AM Stile has responded

    
Stile
Member
Posts: 3846
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 1806 of 2241 (748073)
01-22-2015 1:00 PM
Reply to: Message 1792 by Faith
01-22-2015 10:22 AM


Re: By Their Fruits
Faith writes:

That's an amazingly long post saying nothing that I can decipher.

TL/DR (Too Long/Didn't Read): The Bible is the word of men and not the word of God simply because there is nothing different about any Bible-believer that cannot be achieved through other non-God-related methods.

You seem to have some complaint that Christians aren't what YOU think they should be without regard to any other standard, but even your complaint isn't decipherable.

There was no complaint. I personally like Christians.
I was simply explaining how the Bible doesn't affect anyone in any manner that cannot be achieved by other non-Godly methods.

There's simply nothing special about it in the grand scheme of things.
There's specialness to certain individuals... like I'm sure you think it's rather special.
But that's still nothing different from a placebo effect. There's people who think getting dressed up in animal costumes (Furries) is special, too. And they get out of that what you get from the Bible. That's why there's nothing special about it in the grand scheme of things.

If it truly was the Word of God... it would not be difficult to see the difference it could make.
However, since there is absolutely no difference that it makes (in comparison to other words/works of men) we can confidently conclude that the Bible is nothing more than the words of men.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1792 by Faith, posted 01-22-2015 10:22 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1809 by Faith, posted 01-22-2015 9:29 PM Stile has responded

    
Stile
Member
Posts: 3846
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 1892 of 2241 (748373)
01-25-2015 10:27 AM
Reply to: Message 1809 by Faith
01-22-2015 9:29 PM


Re: By Their Fruits
Faith writes:

Well, one thing that can't be achieved is belief in the Bible and devotion to Christ and the experience of being born again.

Very true.
And one thing that can't be achieved while believing the Bible is belief in other religions.

But that's not the point.
The point is... does it make a difference?
Does belief in the Bible make a difference? Or is it just the same as any other words of men?
Does belief in other religions make a difference? Or is it just the same as any other words of men?
Does belief that there is no God make a difference? Or is it just the same as any other words of men?

So far, nothing seems to make a difference.
Christian people, other religious people, non-religious people... we all have happy days, sad days, hopes, dreams, fears... When you take a step back and look at everyone, we all seem the same. A few groups seems to stand out a bit:

Those who are lucky enough to be educated.
Those with patience.
Those with spouses or families or friends that they love.
Those filled with motivation and hope.
...but nothing that is restricted to the Christian religion, or any specific religion or non-religion.
...it would seem that any Words of Man are just as powerful as the Word of God of the Bible.

With no difference, they seem equivalent.

Faith writes:

Stile writes:

If it truly was the Word of God... it would not be difficult to see the difference it could make.

Why?

Because that's the only way it carries any meaning.
If the Bible really is the Word of God, but it doesn't impart any difference from the Word of Man... what good is it?

We nevertheless tell everybody about it hoping you'll WANT to understand and be saved and want to do all you can to further that desire, because that would be reason to hope you are chosen.

Why would anybody care if they're chosen or not if it doesn't make any difference at all?

Faith writes:

Stile writes:

However, since there is absolutely no difference that it makes (in comparison to other words/works of men) we can confidently conclude that the Bible is nothing more than the words of men.

I wouldn't be so confident if I were you.

Why not? You have yet to show any difference that the Word of God actually makes.

I am very afraid of a God that doesn't make a difference, and punishes those who don't believe in Him. However, my faith in the virtues of love and hope go beyond such an ambivalent God.

Therefore, as long as the Word of God is equivalent to the Word of Man, there's no good reason to believe in any of it. It would be much better to spend my time focusing on love and compassion than it would be to spend any time focusing on a God that doesn't make any difference in the world.

We know that love and compassion make a difference.
We know that love and compassion can come from the Words of Man.
It is possible to add the Word of God on top of the message of love and compassion... but why dilute the message with unnecessary fluff?
If the Word of God doesn't add anything to the message of love and compassion, if it doesn't make a difference... then it only adds confusion and extra, unnecessary fluff.
Therefore, it's better to focus simply on the message of love and compassion alone. That way you won't get side-tracked from the important ideas.

You, Faith, are not immune to being side-tracked from the message of love and compassion. Sometimes you get so focused on getting people to believe in God that you even become frustrated on this message board. You routinely get hot-headed, throw insults, and frustrate yourself. None of that is a part of the message of love and compassion. That is simply a side-track you have because you're putting the message of belief in the God of the Bible ahead of His message of love and compassion. Which do you think He thinks is more important?

It is possible to have both. But not if you're getting hot-headed, throwing insults and frustrating yourself. When you do that, you are only proving to everyone around you that your belief in the Word of God doesn't add anything at all to the Words of Men. You're proving that the two are equivalent.

In some respects I get your point, Christians should act different and we often don't but on the other hand we ARE different from what we were before, I know I am, but you have no way of knowing that, and the ways we are different are interior more than exterior.

I fully believe that you are different from what you were before, especially on the inside.
Just as I am different from what I was before, also on the inside.
Just as every person is different from what they were before, even on the inside.

Again... you're only showing me that you are exactly the same as everyone else. Everyone grows and changes and learns new things and tries to improve their inner-self, that's what the Words of Man do for us. What different thing does the Word of God do for us, though? How does the Word of God improve upon the Words of Man? How is it any different?

Anyway, you shouldn't put such trust in external things, Stile.

I only try to know people by the fruits of their labours.
I was assuming that this might be some common ground we could start from.
It does seem very reasonable to me. But if you have another method, I'm open to hearing about it. Especially if it contains any benevolent difference from other Words of Man.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1809 by Faith, posted 01-22-2015 9:29 PM Faith has not yet responded

    
Stile
Member
Posts: 3846
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 2055 of 2241 (748782)
01-29-2015 12:07 PM
Reply to: Message 2045 by Faith
01-29-2015 11:10 AM


Proof of Man
Faith writes:

The Bible is to be believed, not torn to pieces.

The very fact that The Bible can be "torn to pieces" is proof itself that it's the Word of Man and not the Word of God.

Even men can write books that can't be torn to pieces.
You don't see controversy like this over books about math proofs or books about how the earth is spherical.
Sure, there's fringe loonys... but there's always fringe loonys.

The controversy over The Bible is very large (in North America, anyway). Such controversy just doesn't exist over many works of man simply because you have to be a loony to attempt to go against it.

Therefore... either God did not write a Bible that is as reliable as The Word of Man, or The Bible actually is the word of man, just a poor one. Or at least, poor by today's standards, I'm sure it was a very reliable Work of Man a few thousand years ago.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 2045 by Faith, posted 01-29-2015 11:10 AM Faith has not yet responded

    
Stile
Member
Posts: 3846
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 2228 of 2241 (749404)
02-04-2015 9:05 AM
Reply to: Message 2181 by Faith
02-03-2015 1:51 PM


Re: The end of all reason
Faith writes:

My effort includes a lot of study of the various false religions and cults that try to imitate Christianity, along with sermon after sermon and book after book that bring the whole thing together into a magnificent revelation of spiritual things nobody could ever imagine on their own.

But lots of people imagine something like that on their own.
Lots of people imagine something better than that on their own.

That's how we know that the Bible you're discussing is just the Words of Men. Because it's nothing more than anyone else's fantasy life that results in the same real life as any other based on the Words of Men.

There is happiness, sadness, fun, evil, frustration, hope and laughter.
On the whole, all in the same proportions as any other group of people. Even those who directly reject the Bible you discuss.

Which means that you're wrong. There may very well be something magnificent about it, but it's exactly the same magnificence that all people can get from pretty much anywhere, even themselves. Nothing unique and nothing special about the results. Simply because there's no meaningful difference that you can indicate.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 2181 by Faith, posted 02-03-2015 1:51 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 2231 by Faith, posted 02-04-2015 5:10 PM Stile has not yet responded

    
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