Understanding through Discussion


Welcome! You are not logged in. [ Login ]
EvC Forum active members: 81 (8950 total)
41 online now:
DrJones*, Faith, Percy (Admin) (3 members, 38 visitors)
Newest Member: Mikee
Post Volume: Total: 867,364 Year: 22,400/19,786 Month: 963/1,834 Week: 33/430 Day: 33/63 Hour: 1/2


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Is the Bible the inerrant word of God? Or is it the words of men?
GDR
Member
Posts: 5052
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 38 of 2241 (701427)
06-18-2013 10:30 PM
Reply to: Message 37 by ringo
06-17-2013 1:30 PM


Re: No Results
ringo writes:

Actually, there are two separate questons: "Were they inspired by some outside source?" and if so, "Did that source have knowledge and insight superior to themselves?"
It's clear that the Bible is not inerrant, so either the inspiration was faulty or the message itself was faulty. Either way, the problem appears to be at the source.

It depends what you mean by inspired. There have been many people through the years who have been inspired to acts of sacrifice for the benefit of others, who have created beautiful prose or poetry, or have created beautiful music who were inspired presumably by God but we don't think that what they did or created was done perfectly.

We should accept the fact that the Bible is subject to the cultural and personal biases of the authors. Frankly it is only in that context that you can actually get a coherent narrative of God's interaction with us.


He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 37 by ringo, posted 06-17-2013 1:30 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 39 by ringo, posted 06-20-2013 12:00 PM GDR has not yet responded
 Message 40 by Tangle, posted 06-20-2013 2:14 PM GDR has responded
 Message 41 by GDR, posted 06-20-2013 6:57 PM GDR has not yet responded

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 5052
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 41 of 2241 (701540)
06-20-2013 6:57 PM
Reply to: Message 38 by GDR
06-18-2013 10:30 PM


Re: No Results
GDR writes:

We should accept the fact that the Bible is subject to the cultural and personal biases of the authors. Frankly it is only in that context that you can actually get a coherent narrative of God's interaction with us.

ringo writes:

It's pretty simple, isn't it? If it goes well, you give God the credit. If it goes badly, you give people the blame. It's a flawless copout.

I’m not trying to be an apologist for God. I’m simply trying to work out what I believe is the truth. It was people who crucified Jesus and if Jesus was resurrected then it was God who resurrected Him. As I said, Jesus knew what happened to those who went up against those with the power and believed that what He was doing was important enough that He went ahead with the faith that what He was doing was worth the consequences. God redeemed it and in doing so vindicated the life and teaching of Jesus.


He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 38 by GDR, posted 06-18-2013 10:30 PM GDR has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 54 by ringo, posted 06-21-2013 12:32 PM GDR has responded

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 5052
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 42 of 2241 (701541)
06-20-2013 7:05 PM
Reply to: Message 40 by Tangle
06-20-2013 2:14 PM


Re: No Results
Tangle writes:

Why can't we get a coherant narrative with God by having a coherant narrative with God? It would make more sense. Why make it so bloody obscure? It's supposed to be the most important message ever delivered to mankind, you'd expect a god to make it a bit easier to actually understand and believe.

It isn't that obscure. Read my signature. It's pretty simple. In the resurrection of Jesus we see God confirming that the simple requirement is that we care for others as we would like them to care for us as part of our nature, that we should act in concert with others in taking that love and care to the world. The resurrection is also a pointer ahead to what God plans for all of creation at the end of time.

What you seem to be looking for is an iron clad guarantee of good things ahead if you behave in the proper manner or believe the right stuff. If that were the case then we could never love freely as we would always know that in the end it was for our own selfish benefit.


He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 40 by Tangle, posted 06-20-2013 2:14 PM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 44 by Tangle, posted 06-21-2013 4:16 AM GDR has not yet responded

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 5052
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 57 of 2241 (701600)
06-21-2013 9:30 PM
Reply to: Message 54 by ringo
06-21-2013 12:32 PM


Re: No Results
ringo writes:

It was people who captured Long John Silver and it was God who helped him escape.
No, wait. It was Jim Hawkins. That would be more plausible, wouldn't it?

As I understood the story it was that God inspired Jim Hawkins to make it all possible. That is the most plausible of all.


He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 54 by ringo, posted 06-21-2013 12:32 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 76 by ringo, posted 06-23-2013 4:10 PM GDR has not yet responded

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 5052
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 126 of 2241 (738351)
10-09-2014 9:01 AM
Reply to: Message 124 by Percy
10-09-2014 8:30 AM


Re: 3 in one
Percy writes:

Trinitarianism is more entertaining than confusing, for instance when trinitarians try to explain how when God says, "This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased," or when Jesus cries out, "My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?" it's not just God talking to himself.

I think it becomes clearer in the first chapter of the Gospel of John. Essentially John tells us that the "Word" or the wisdom of God became flesh. In other words Jesus perfectly embodied the nature of God with His understanding of how God's love for His creation is supposed to play out in our lives. The Holy Spirit is the connection between us in our Earthly dimension and God in His heavenly dimension.

That at least is how I get my head around it.


He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 124 by Percy, posted 10-09-2014 8:30 AM Percy has acknowledged this reply

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 5052
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 163 of 2241 (738447)
10-10-2014 5:43 PM
Reply to: Message 160 by Faith
10-10-2014 4:12 PM


Re: 3 in one
Faith writes:

But it isn't a denial of Monotheism, it's just one of the ways you misunderstand the Trinity. God is ONE is affirmed in the formulation of the Trinity, ONE GOD only, just one, but Three Persons in that one God. This is determined by scriptural descriptions that make it clear that God is One but that the Three Persons are all independent and all have the attributes of God. It's not an invented idea, it's all based on scriptural descriptions that amount to revelations, that come from many different books of the Bible and is not the invention of a single person.

How about this analogy Faith. A man starts up a very successful business. He manages this business on his own for many years and then his son grows up and the father appoints or anoints the son to represent him and is given authority over the whole business. It would be expected that the employees would give the same allegiance to the son that they did to the father.

This of course doesn't mean that the father has lost contact or interest in the business. He continues to send e-mails of encouragement and suggestions to the employees with the hope that the e-mails will be used to improve the business and improve the lot of all the employees by fostering healthier relations between the employees as well as with upper management.

The messiah was to be the anointed of Yahweh to redeem Israel. However, God went further than that and gave Jesus was dominion over creation as per Daniel 7. We are connected to him through the Holy Spirit.

Does that work for you?


He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 160 by Faith, posted 10-10-2014 4:12 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 165 by jar, posted 10-10-2014 6:35 PM GDR has responded
 Message 175 by Faith, posted 10-10-2014 8:30 PM GDR has not yet responded

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 5052
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 168 of 2241 (738456)
10-10-2014 7:07 PM
Reply to: Message 165 by jar
10-10-2014 6:35 PM


Re: 3 in one
jar writes:

How can you get any reference to Jesus from Daniel 7 without totally taking material out of context and adding stuff not found there?

Jesus often referred to Himself as the "Son of Man". In the context of all that we have of what He said and did, I think that it is pretty clear that He was referring to the "Son of Man" as depicted by Daniel and that He was one being presented to the "Ancient of Days" and given dominion over an Earthly and eternal Kingdom. I believe that Jesus, as an act of faith, came to this conclusion through His understanding of the Jewish scriptures and prayer.

Of course this is only meaningful if the resurrection of Jesus is truly historical, which gives credence to the idea that God has validated Christ's life and message.


He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 165 by jar, posted 10-10-2014 6:35 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 169 by jar, posted 10-10-2014 7:36 PM GDR has responded

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 5052
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 172 of 2241 (738460)
10-10-2014 8:04 PM
Reply to: Message 169 by jar
10-10-2014 7:36 PM


Re: 3 in one
jar writes:

But where is there any indication that the author of Daniel had any intention of referring to Jesus? There is little doubt that later authors picked pieces out of context and inserted them into what they wrote Jesus said or did.

I didn't say that Daniel had specific knowledge of Jesus. It was a dream that Daniel had that depicted a "Son of Man", presumably a messianic figure being presented to the "Ancient of Days". Jesus took that dream to represent some how what it was that He was about. His message all the way through is a Kingdom message and that Israel was in some way a foreshadowing of that Kingdom. I am not saying that Jesus knew that He was right but that He took it on faith and ultimately God vindicated that faith by resurrecting Him.


He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 169 by jar, posted 10-10-2014 7:36 PM jar has not yet responded

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 5052
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 382 of 2241 (738892)
10-17-2014 10:56 AM
Reply to: Message 366 by Faith
10-16-2014 1:34 AM


Re: Try truth Faith? jar?
Faith writes:

Anyone who knows and believes the Bible and represents it correctly speaks for God, sorry.
But you are right, it is a matter of opinions after all, the opinion of those who believe God and His word versus the opinion of those who reject it ...

The author of the Gospel of John tells us that Jesus is the "Word" of God. Instead of believing the "Word" of God you choose to believe a collection of books written by men inspired to write down their understanding, coloured by their cultural and personal influences, of God trying to make Himself and His nature understood by humans. It is an ongoing story that the writers sometimes get right and sometimes get wrong.

All theists worship some form of God. It is His nature that we struggle to come to grips with. You somehow manage to believe in a god who both commands mass slaughter and the stoning to death of those committing minor offences, with one who commands us to love our neighbour and even our enemy. I choose to believe in God as seen through the lens of Jesus as depicted in the Gospels as opposed to the sometimes loving sometimes hateful god depicted in other books of the Bible.

As I have said before, the religion is Christianity not the Biblianity that you adhere to.


He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 366 by Faith, posted 10-16-2014 1:34 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 385 by Faith, posted 10-17-2014 4:37 PM GDR has responded

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 5052
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 2.8


(2)
Message 391 of 2241 (738932)
10-18-2014 10:20 AM
Reply to: Message 385 by Faith
10-17-2014 4:37 PM


Re: Try truth Faith? jar?
Faith writes:

Everything I quoted (I think, just about anyway, and besides, Jesus authored the entire Bible, it's ALL His Word) was from Jesus Himself, the Word as you point out, whose words you'd never find out except from the written Word. Without it nobody would have a clue about Jesus Christ and His teachings but you dismiss the very source of knowledge about Him. How ludicrous. You wouldn't know He is the Word of God without the written Word. Pretty irrational to dismiss the Bible as if you could know Jesus without it.

Of course my knowledge of Jesus comes from the Gospels, but apparently you read all the books of the Bible the same way. You give the same credibility to an ancient scribe, who is likely sustained by his human benefactor, as you do to those who compiled what we have written about Jesus.

However, you say that Jesus actually wrote it all anyway. Presumably all the authors were largely superfluous to the process as they served as nothing more than robotic keyboards in writing down what Jesus transcribed to them. Their personalities were allowed to show through but not their personal biases or self interest.

You are so busy proclaiming that Jesus is God that you completely ignore Jesus as man. I did say that the Gospel of John talks about the "Word" or wisdom of God became flesh in Jesus, but that is the Godly wisdom about life on this planet. That does not mean that Jesus embodied the total knowledge of God the Father.

You hold a very docetic view of Jesus. From what you have written I assume that you believe that Jesus had certainty in regards to His resurrection on the third day. In that light what Jesus did on the cross is minimized when compared to those martyrs who have given up their lives in favour of others over the years simply because they had faith that it was the right thing to do.

Jesus went to the cross on faith derived from His understanding of the Hebrew Scriptures and through prayer. Otherwise, what was the point of His praying to not have to go through with it in Gethsemane. For that matter, who do you think He was praying to? Himself?

Faith writes:

Yes, I believe God's "mass slaughters" are demonstrations of His judgments against sin. Most of them followed hundreds of years of His being patient with the people before bringing the judgment. You can learn from these things how God deals with sin or you can ignore it and get caught off guard. He gives us such information for our own good.

As a Christian I consider that blasphemous. Christians are called to gain their understanding of the nature of God through the one who embodied it, namely Jesus. In Jesus we are called to follow God because of His love for us so that we can willingly and joyfully reflect that love into His creation.

You make it all about a god who wants us to follow him out of self interest. If you don't worship him it will go badly for you both in this life and the next. Your Bibleanity is 180 degrees out from Christianity. You have made it about looking out for number one as opposed to looking out for your neighbour. It is all about your personal salvation. In order to "get saved" you are prepared to worship a god who commands his followers to stone to death difficult children. The only difference I can see between those that espouse your views and the Taliban is that you don't actually follow through on what you say you believe.

My contention for that is that you don't actually believe it. I contend that your belief is coloured by a society which has been molded to a large degree by Christ's teaching. You rationalize it by saying that was for then but it is different now. Do you not think that some societies today are just as bad as the societies that you believe God wanted to have eradicated.

Let's just say that you are right. Why wouldn't he just do it himself instead of having his followers getting involved in slaughtering men, women and children? I will gratefully follow God as we see Him in Jesus but I am not about to follow a god that you seem to worship.


He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 385 by Faith, posted 10-17-2014 4:37 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 392 by Faith, posted 10-18-2014 11:16 AM GDR has responded

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 5052
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 394 of 2241 (738938)
10-18-2014 11:52 AM
Reply to: Message 392 by Faith
10-18-2014 11:16 AM


Re: Try truth Faith? jar?
Faith writes:

Of course I read all the books of the Bible the same way. They are all inspired by God, and that means by Jesus and the Holy Spirit as well as the Father. The early Church and the Church through the ages continued to affirm the inspiration of the majority of the body of scriptures that were eventually bound together as the Bible which was the final ratification of them as God's own word. If being inspired means they are God's word you cannot pick and choose among them as to which is the truth; they all are.

You make these statements Faith that just aren't true. The early church did not believe in an inerrant Bible. Read Augustine for starters. This idea of inerrancy grew out of the reformation and was essentially a knee jerk reaction to having the Bible being with held from the general population for centuries. People died in order to have it available to the masses. It was revered and some took that reverence to extremes.

Simply saying that God inspired the writers is no different than saying that God inspired CS Lewis to write what he wrote. I'm a fan of Lewis but he would be horrified if he thought that because God inspired him to chronicle his understanding of God that anyone should believe that it perfectly reflected what God wanted said.

Yes, I believe that God speaks to us through the entire Bible. However, through the lens of Jesus in the Gospels we have been given the tool required to understand what is of God and what isn't in all of the scriptures. For example Jesus in Matthew 5 quotes Leviticus and Deuteronomy and says:

quote:
You have heard that it was said, You shall love your neighbour and hate your enemy, But I say to you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you".

Just look at that quote. Jesus says "that you have heard that it was said". He doesn't say that it was said, he says simply that you heard that it was said obviously implying that God never said it in the first place. He then goes on to correct the error in the early Scriptures. In this case they got the part about loving their neighbours right, but they got the part about hating their enemies wrong.

The point is Faith that you can choose between worshiping God as embodied in Jesus, or you can worship God as embodied in the Bible. I choose Jesus and it appears that you have chosen to make an idol out of the Bible. Once again, that is biblianity not Christianity.


He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 392 by Faith, posted 10-18-2014 11:16 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 395 by Faith, posted 10-18-2014 11:54 AM GDR has responded
 Message 399 by Faith, posted 10-18-2014 12:08 PM GDR has responded

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 5052
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 2.8


(1)
Message 401 of 2241 (738947)
10-18-2014 12:23 PM
Reply to: Message 395 by Faith
10-18-2014 11:54 AM


Re: Try truth Faith? jar?
Faith writes:

Just one answer for now: The Reformation did not invent inerrancy. What do you think the point was of the making of lists of books at the various councils that were regarded as inspired by God? The idea of inspiration is the idea of inerrancy.


I understand you believe all that but it just doesn't hold up. You make assertions without any support. You are also revising the meaning of inspiration. I have no problem with the concept that the authors of the Bible were inspired by God to write what they did, that does not mean that what they wrote was inerrant.

Faith writes:

Oh make it two answers: Jesus is NOT "correcting" the Old Testament in His Sermon on the Mount, He is revealing its true meaning. He is God, He taught the Jews, He took their weaknesses into account during their time, and now since He has come in the flesh and we have the Holy Spirit to strengthen us we can stand the stronger meat of the complete revelation.

He is not revealing its true meaning. He was pointing out where it was in error. That is absolutely crystal clear. Your problem is that you read it with your self imposed blinkers so that it can't really mean what it actually says. By the way, are you suggesting that The Holy Spirit didn't exist before pentecost?

Faith writes:

Oh make it three: Jesus quoted from every book in the Old Testament, quoted it as THE WORD OF GOD.

Jesus constantly quoted the OT to His Jewish audience so that they would understand what He was saying and doing. Yes, God the Father as espoused by Jesus can be found throughout the OT, but also in there we can find the god that many of the Israelites looked to in order to gain societal and personal power at the expense of their enemies. For many it was about how they could use god as opposed to how He could use them.


He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 395 by Faith, posted 10-18-2014 11:54 AM Faith has not yet responded

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 5052
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 403 of 2241 (738949)
10-18-2014 12:35 PM
Reply to: Message 397 by Faith
10-18-2014 12:02 PM


Re: Could you just try to recognize that I AM being honest?
I do recognize that you are being honest, I am only suggesting that you are honestly wrong.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 397 by Faith, posted 10-18-2014 12:02 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 5052
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 405 of 2241 (738952)
10-18-2014 12:44 PM
Reply to: Message 399 by Faith
10-18-2014 12:08 PM


Re: Try truth Faith? jar?
Faith writes:

Too much of Lewis is Lewis and not God to call his writings inspired. And besides, as you acknowledge, he would say so himself.
The Biblical writers were inspired though. "The word of the LORD came to me..." is a clue in some cases that you no doubt despise.

If you take the author in one of the OT texts as being correct when he says that "the word of the Lord came to me" then why can't you take it as correct when the Gospels quote Jesus as saying that the OT got it wrong. Once again, read what the writer says after saying that the word of the Lord came to him, but through the lens of Jesus the embodied Word of God, to see if the writer understood God correctly or not.

Also, to respond to your edit about it not saying to hate your enemy in the OT then just read it in context. If commanding people to slaughter the men, women and children of another tribe doesn't involve hating them then I don't know what does.


He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 399 by Faith, posted 10-18-2014 12:08 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 5052
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 2.8


(1)
Message 416 of 2241 (738982)
10-18-2014 8:10 PM
Reply to: Message 414 by Faith
10-18-2014 6:30 PM


Re: Could you just try to recognize that I AM being honest?
Faith writes:

Being inspired means God authored it and if God authored it there is absolutely nothing in it that is anything but correct.

People would agree that Mozart was inspired to right beautiful music. Does that mean that God or someone else gave him the melody? Your understanding of inspiration would be that God, or someone else gave him the melody and he just put down the notes.

quote:
Inspiration:: something that makes someone want to do something or that gives someone an idea about what to do or create : a force or influence that inspires someone

: a person, place, experience, etc., that makes someone want to do or create something


My belief is that God inspired people to write about their understanding of the nature of God, how we are to relate to Him, etc. That does not mean that it is inerrant. We have been given Jesus to bring clarity.


He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 414 by Faith, posted 10-18-2014 6:30 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 417 by Faith, posted 10-18-2014 9:44 PM GDR has not yet responded

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2018 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.0 Beta
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2019