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Author Topic:   Is the Bible the inerrant word of God? Or is it the words of men?
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 4512
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 4.2


Message 830 of 2241 (744807)
12-15-2014 10:24 PM
Reply to: Message 829 by ringo
12-15-2014 11:11 AM


Re: Jesus as human while on earth
How have believers progressed to be as moral as unbelievers?

The question assumes that believers have made such progress. We already know that the "morality" we see in theocracies today is just as heinous as any practiced by religionists the past 3000 years. I wonder if, in the absence of secular governance, the "morality" shown us by religionists in the western democracies today would have improved any over what they have shown these millennia past.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 829 by ringo, posted 12-15-2014 11:11 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 835 by ringo, posted 12-16-2014 10:49 AM AZPaul3 has acknowledged this reply
 Message 836 by Faith, posted 12-16-2014 11:01 AM AZPaul3 has acknowledged this reply

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 4512
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 4.2


Message 1646 of 2241 (747458)
01-15-2015 12:50 PM
Reply to: Message 1637 by jar
01-15-2015 11:34 AM


Re: Jephthah again
This is a bit late, I know, but if a clarification could be made please.

The passages I have read in Judges 11, all in English, King James and a few others, have Jephthah promising god that "whatsoever cometh forth of the doors of my house to meet me ... " and not whosoever ...

Unless someone can show that the Aramaic/Greek/Hebrew whatever original indicates otherwise I think I'll go with Faith on this one.

It would appear from the English that Jephthah was not promising a human sacrifice as some here insist, but just an unspecified sacrifice. Can anyone show that it was or was not common/uncommon in them days for one's favorite dog or lamb or gerbil or elephant to be first out the door to greet the returning master?

Does it even matter?

The whole point of the story is that a promise was made to god and one did not welsh on god regardless of the cost. The disturbing thing is that the girl was roasted and no one, especially not this god, did a damn thing to stop it. And to think that 3 of this world's major religions are based on the love of this crap. Sick.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1637 by jar, posted 01-15-2015 11:34 AM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1649 by Faith, posted 01-15-2015 12:57 PM AZPaul3 has responded
 Message 1650 by jar, posted 01-15-2015 1:04 PM AZPaul3 has acknowledged this reply
 Message 1651 by NoNukes, posted 01-15-2015 1:35 PM AZPaul3 has responded

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 4512
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 4.2


Message 1655 of 2241 (747483)
01-15-2015 1:59 PM
Reply to: Message 1649 by Faith
01-15-2015 12:57 PM


Re: Jephthah again
Thank you for the first half of your post.

But ... but, the second half was the good part.


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 Message 1649 by Faith, posted 01-15-2015 12:57 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 4512
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 4.2


Message 1659 of 2241 (747500)
01-15-2015 2:27 PM
Reply to: Message 1651 by NoNukes
01-15-2015 1:35 PM


Re: Jephthah again
Seriously, AZ. Wouldn't this promise of necessity present an unacceptably high probability of sacrificing a family member or friend?

That is not the point, is it. The point is in that half of my post that Faith doesn't seem to care for.

I'm not the least bit bothered by God not interfering. This evil crap is all on Jephthah.

Well, you should be. This is another example of the evil crap that permeates the entire tome. There is enough evil in this story to smear on everyone involved. It doesn't matter if god said or did anything or not. This entire story is put forward as another example of what it means to live a "god fearing life". So many people we all have to deal with, work with, rely on, in this society believe and are in love with this demented shit.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1651 by NoNukes, posted 01-15-2015 1:35 PM NoNukes has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1661 by jar, posted 01-15-2015 2:39 PM AZPaul3 has acknowledged this reply
 Message 1663 by Faith, posted 01-15-2015 3:06 PM AZPaul3 has responded
 Message 1667 by NoNukes, posted 01-15-2015 3:54 PM AZPaul3 has responded

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 4512
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 4.2


(1)
Message 1666 of 2241 (747521)
01-15-2015 3:46 PM
Reply to: Message 1663 by Faith
01-15-2015 3:06 PM


Re: Jephthah again
The example is of a man who DIDN'T do according to God's Law, not an example of how to live a God fearing life at all. God condemns both rash vows and human sacrifice.

And where, prey tell, in your literal treatment, or even in some metaphorical application, of this scripture, does your god condemn/scold/admonish/wag a finger at the man for this supposed transgression? From what I can tell he went on to conquer other territories and commit other atrocities for Israel without any impediment from your god whatsoever. Show me where Jephthah was condemned by your god in even the smallest way for his rash vow or the burning to death of his daughter.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1663 by Faith, posted 01-15-2015 3:06 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1668 by Faith, posted 01-15-2015 3:56 PM AZPaul3 has responded

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 4512
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 4.2


(1)
Message 1672 of 2241 (747535)
01-15-2015 6:07 PM
Reply to: Message 1667 by NoNukes
01-15-2015 3:54 PM


Re: Jephthah again
The point is that the first half of your post is pretty much without a point.

And so it is(n't). But that second half is pure gold!


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1667 by NoNukes, posted 01-15-2015 3:54 PM NoNukes has acknowledged this reply

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 4512
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 4.2


Message 1673 of 2241 (747536)
01-15-2015 6:41 PM
Reply to: Message 1668 by Faith
01-15-2015 3:56 PM


Re: Jephthah again
You have to know the Bible, AZ, you have to know God's law, you have to know what He has said throughout scripture about rash vows and human sacrifice.

I'm sure you can find plenty of other stories in your book that speak to those issues, but not Jephthah. If your god felt this way then here was a tale tailor made to illustrate those points and the author(s) did not go there. The story shows that this religious zealot lived righteously "in fear of the Lord," acted accordingly and suffered no consequence as a result of his vicious cruelty and went on to commit even more heinous abominations in the name of god as the leader of all Israel. The tale stands on its own quite well.

Perhaps I can spend the time to do the research later to show you what I mean but from your attitude I doubt it would make any difference.

I'm sure you are right about this. I certainly would not waste my efforts on trying to educate such a hopelessly lost soul with such a bad attitude, but I do appreciate your having considered such.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1668 by Faith, posted 01-15-2015 3:56 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1674 by Faith, posted 01-15-2015 6:49 PM AZPaul3 has acknowledged this reply
 Message 1677 by Faith, posted 01-16-2015 12:51 AM AZPaul3 has acknowledged this reply

  
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