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Author Topic:   Is the Bible the inerrant word of God? Or is it the words of men?
herebedragons
Member
Posts: 1517
From: Michigan
Joined: 11-22-2009


(2)
Message 441 of 2241 (739101)
10-20-2014 12:37 PM
Reply to: Message 436 by Faith
10-20-2014 4:16 AM


Re: Inspiration and the nature of God
A lot of the OT laws were designed to deal with situations that commonly arose in that tribal context.

And yet when I point that out, you claim that it is every bit as relevant to our society today and we need to understand it through a plain, simple reading.

You can't eliminate slavery in such a culture, so God gave laws that make life easier for the slaves.

Really?? God could have said "Thou shalt not own slaves, neither male nor female owneth thou them. Instead, you must pay those that work for you a fair and equitable wage so that no human being, who were made in my image, would suffer the indecency of being held as the property of another."

The decision to send her back to her jerk of a husband is no doubt better than releasing her into a society where single women don't stand a chance, or sending her back to her parents which would be like an admission of guilt.

How about punish the husband who lied, who falsely accused a fellow Israelite of sin? How about society treating women who have been abandoned by their ungrateful husband with respect and compassion? Is that too much to ask for God's holy people?

Honestly, the lengths you will go to justify your nonsense is unbelievable.

HBD


Whoever calls me ignorant shares my own opinion. Sorrowfully and tacitly I recognize my ignorance, when I consider how much I lack of what my mind in its craving for knowledge is sighing for... I console myself with the consideration that this belongs to our common nature. - Francesco Petrarca

"Nothing is easier than to persuade people who want to be persuaded and already believe." - another Petrarca gem.

Ignorance is a most formidable opponent rivaled only by arrogance; but when the two join forces, one is all but invincible.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 436 by Faith, posted 10-20-2014 4:16 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 442 by Faith, posted 10-20-2014 12:53 PM herebedragons has not yet responded
 Message 445 by New Cat's Eye, posted 10-20-2014 2:01 PM herebedragons has not yet responded

  
herebedragons
Member
Posts: 1517
From: Michigan
Joined: 11-22-2009


(1)
Message 443 of 2241 (739122)
10-20-2014 1:46 PM
Reply to: Message 433 by GDR
10-20-2014 2:46 AM


Re: Inspiration and the nature of God
Absolutely. God breathes life into the Scriptures They are inspired, but to say that means that they are inerrant is to misuse that entirely. Paul goes on to say that they are useful for teaching, for rebuke, for improvement and for training in righteousness.

I attend a Church of the Nazarene, in the Wesleyan, holiness tradition, and our statement of faith regarding this issue is

quote:
We believe in the plenary inspiration of the Holy Scriptures, by which we understand the 66 books of the Old and New Testaments, given by divine inspiration, inerrantly revealing the will of God concerning us in all things necessary to our salvation, so that whatever is not contained therein is not to be enjoined as an article of faith.

The key is "all things necessary to our salvation," so it doesn't matter if the stories are 100% accurate, but the point is that the truth or the message they communicate is what is complete and reliable. In other words, the Bible does not mislead us in how we relate to God and how he relates to us.

HBD


Whoever calls me ignorant shares my own opinion. Sorrowfully and tacitly I recognize my ignorance, when I consider how much I lack of what my mind in its craving for knowledge is sighing for... I console myself with the consideration that this belongs to our common nature. - Francesco Petrarca

"Nothing is easier than to persuade people who want to be persuaded and already believe." - another Petrarca gem.

Ignorance is a most formidable opponent rivaled only by arrogance; but when the two join forces, one is all but invincible.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 433 by GDR, posted 10-20-2014 2:46 AM GDR has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 447 by GDR, posted 10-20-2014 3:40 PM herebedragons has not yet responded

  
herebedragons
Member
Posts: 1517
From: Michigan
Joined: 11-22-2009


(3)
Message 455 of 2241 (739157)
10-21-2014 8:27 AM
Reply to: Message 452 by Faith
10-21-2014 12:24 AM


Re: Some sermons on inspiration and inerrancy that back me up
Faith writes:

the idea of "partial inerrancy" which is what HBD says his church believes.

Actually I would say it falls somewhere in between partial inerrancy and total inerrancy. The point is that God inspired ALL of it but that he did not necessarily give them the exact words to say. They wrote from their own personal perspective and in the context of their understanding and the society they lived in. That is why they wrote things that are just plain wrong - like "fountains of the deep," "windows of heaven," " pillars of the earth," etc.

But in matters of faith necessary to salvation, they were inerrant. Is it necessary to salvation to know that 600,000 men, plus women and children left Egypt? If that detail was in error and there was really only 20,000 people who left Egypt, would that affect your salvation? You say Yes, it would. The Nazarene doctrine says No, it would not.

I've been told I'm not representing the orthodox Christian point of view.

You are not. Orthodox Christianity refers to the Eastern Orthodox Church or Oriental Orthodoxy. These churches claim an unbroken line that traces back to the apostles and the church at Ephesus in particular. What you adhere to is Calvinism (at least that is what I can best determine your doctrinal stance to be associated with). I do not consider Calvin to be orthodox, he was an extremist. In fact, very few churches actually hold to a strict Calvinistic view, instead they have a watered down version of his theology.

I brought this up before, the Reformation was a reactionary movement; its proponents were reacting to the abuses of the Catholic Church and in doing so, over compensated. They took an extreme swing in the opposite direction. I was raised in a Baptist Church, in the Calvinist tradition (although like I said, a watered down version). I now find some Calvinistic doctrines to be reprehensible and even dangerous to people's understanding of God. Wesley came a couple hundred years after Calvin and this allowed the pendulum to swing back, more towards the middle. I find that middle ground much more palpable; it makes much more sense.

That there are other points of view doesn't change the fact that I am representing one huge body of traditional orthodox thought and these sermons are intended as evidence for that claim.

We could all produce sermons that support our particular point of view. So what? What you need to come to grips with Faith, is that doctrine is a human construct, intended to explain some aspect of God's character. And because of this, NONE of them are infallible. NO doctrine has everything right. I would assert that every single doctrinal or theological system has a significant flaw of one type or another. Every single one. Do you assert that Calvin was infallible, or Wesley, or any of the theologians throughout history, or the preachers you cite? Are any of them infallible? NO.

Theology is simply our best attempt at understanding God. We choose a theology by what we believe to be the best representation of reality. There is no ONE perfect doctrine or theological system. I reject Calvinism and its watered down versions because I don't believe it matches reality. I don't care if you think it is "orthodox" or "traditional," or that it represents "one huge body," it is wrong in my estimation. Yes, I am probably wrong in some of my beliefs... but so are you. That is what you need to come to grips with. It doesn't matter how many preachers agree with you (because certainly just as many disagree).

HBD


Whoever calls me ignorant shares my own opinion. Sorrowfully and tacitly I recognize my ignorance, when I consider how much I lack of what my mind in its craving for knowledge is sighing for... I console myself with the consideration that this belongs to our common nature. - Francesco Petrarca

"Nothing is easier than to persuade people who want to be persuaded and already believe." - another Petrarca gem.

Ignorance is a most formidable opponent rivaled only by arrogance; but when the two join forces, one is all but invincible.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 452 by Faith, posted 10-21-2014 12:24 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 458 by Phat, posted 10-21-2014 10:09 AM herebedragons has not yet responded
 Message 462 by dwise1, posted 10-21-2014 10:50 AM herebedragons has not yet responded
 Message 466 by Faith, posted 10-21-2014 3:15 PM herebedragons has responded

  
herebedragons
Member
Posts: 1517
From: Michigan
Joined: 11-22-2009


(1)
Message 543 of 2241 (739737)
10-27-2014 1:16 PM
Reply to: Message 534 by mike the wiz
10-27-2014 11:59 AM


Re: mike comes like a thief in the night.
I am not against your way of seeing it, as you are clearly a genuine believer, it doesn't have to be contentious, it's just a difficult thing, because we are all at our own different stages of our walk with God, really, and we all have our own personal little differences.

Personally, I really appreciate this attitude, which is all I have ever hoped Faith could express, but alas... But I see this as at the heart the of inerrancy issue; inerrancy must be absolute, so that not only is the Bible itself inerrant, but one's personal understanding of it must also be inerrant since the position is supposedly so clearly spelled out in Scripture.

HBD


Whoever calls me ignorant shares my own opinion. Sorrowfully and tacitly I recognize my ignorance, when I consider how much I lack of what my mind in its craving for knowledge is sighing for... I console myself with the consideration that this belongs to our common nature. - Francesco Petrarca

"Nothing is easier than to persuade people who want to be persuaded and already believe." - another Petrarca gem.

Ignorance is a most formidable opponent rivaled only by arrogance; but when the two join forces, one is all but invincible.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 534 by mike the wiz, posted 10-27-2014 11:59 AM mike the wiz has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 544 by ringo, posted 10-27-2014 1:20 PM herebedragons has not yet responded

  
herebedragons
Member
Posts: 1517
From: Michigan
Joined: 11-22-2009


(1)
Message 547 of 2241 (739753)
10-27-2014 3:10 PM
Reply to: Message 466 by Faith
10-21-2014 3:15 PM


Re: Some sermons on inspiration and inerrancy that back me up
I've been using the term "orthodox" correctly to mean "correct" or "true" to refer to the traditional historical main body of theology and I'm sure you know that.

Yes, I admit that I know you were using the word in this way. The problem is that there is no clear definition of what "orthodox" or "correct" or "true" actually mean. Or in other words, you determine what is correct and then refer to that as orthodox. If any group or doctrinal system should have the right to claim orthodoxy it should be those whose roots, whose origins go back to the earliest days of Christianity. The two main groups that do are Eastern Orthodoxy and Catholicism, which, of course, you would not consider orthodox.

There are groups that I would consider orthodox that differ in doctrine from what you consider to be orthodox doctrine. Examples would include Church of God, Church of the Nazarene, Methodist, Wesleyan and others of the Armenian / Wesleyan tradition as opposed to the Calvinistic tradition. So your use of orthodox to mean "correct" or "true" is rather subjective. Rather than declaring your tradition to be correct, you could simply state the tradition that agrees with you. So for example, you could say "Here are some sermons by Baptist preachers that agree with me." or whatever particular group you associate your doctrine.

I don't know why you object to the term "partial inerrancy" for your view, it seems to fit well with how you describe it:

I did some reading related to this idea and it seems the commonly used term for this position is infallible, which is actually unfortunate because the word actually implies that it cannot be wrong, which is even more stringent than inerrant. However, the word has been slightly redefined when used in this circumstance and it means just what I said, that the Bible contains everything necessary to our salvation and does not mislead in those matters.

some of the Bible wrong, the rest inerrant.

You have stated that you don't hold the KJV to be inerrant, which using your reasoning means that some of the Bible is wrong, at least some of the Bible you use. So it becomes a matter of magnitude, right? I hold that more of the Bible is wrong than you do? So what percentage of the KJV is erroneous? Do you have any idea, and how would you even know?

Some suggest that the Bible was inerrant as originally written, but none of those original documents are extant, so what is the point of making that claim? The problem with inerrancy arguments is that they require absolute inerrancy, otherwise, they are not inerrant, they are with error. This would have to include subsequent translations as well as the originals, otherwise there is no reason to argue for inerrancy.

dwise is wrong, it isn't minutiae that determines this group but major doctrine. We may differ on some minutiae but he doesn't say what differences he is thinking of.

To one that holds an absolute inerrant view, there can be no minutiae. There is only right and wrong, no shades of grey. If MacArthur is wrong about the smallest thing he says that the Bible says then he is wrong and he is making the Bible out to be in error.

Your view of the Protestant Reformation is revisionist and weird.

No its not. You make it out to be a purely religious experience. It was not. It was also political and personal.

HBD


Whoever calls me ignorant shares my own opinion. Sorrowfully and tacitly I recognize my ignorance, when I consider how much I lack of what my mind in its craving for knowledge is sighing for... I console myself with the consideration that this belongs to our common nature. - Francesco Petrarca

"Nothing is easier than to persuade people who want to be persuaded and already believe." - another Petrarca gem.

Ignorance is a most formidable opponent rivaled only by arrogance; but when the two join forces, one is all but invincible.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 466 by Faith, posted 10-21-2014 3:15 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 549 by Faith, posted 10-27-2014 6:31 PM herebedragons has not yet responded

  
herebedragons
Member
Posts: 1517
From: Michigan
Joined: 11-22-2009


Message 755 of 2241 (743798)
12-04-2014 1:29 PM
Reply to: Message 741 by ringo
12-04-2014 11:24 AM


Re: Simon Says
Paul was apparently indulging in a bit of hyperbole. What he should have said, if he intended to be taken literally, was that the love of money is the root of quite a lot of evil.

That's probably what he actually said. Other translations quote that verse as (1 Tim 6:10):

quote:
For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evil, and in their eagerness to be rich some have wandered away from the faith and pierced themselves with many pains. - NASB

quote:
For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evil, for which some have strayed from the faith in their greediness, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows. - NKJV

Most modern translations use wording of that type.

HBD


Whoever calls me ignorant shares my own opinion. Sorrowfully and tacitly I recognize my ignorance, when I consider how much I lack of what my mind in its craving for knowledge is sighing for... I console myself with the consideration that this belongs to our common nature. - Francesco Petrarca

"Nothing is easier than to persuade people who want to be persuaded and already believe." - another Petrarca gem.

Ignorance is a most formidable opponent rivaled only by arrogance; but when the two join forces, one is all but invincible.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 741 by ringo, posted 12-04-2014 11:24 AM ringo has acknowledged this reply

  
herebedragons
Member
Posts: 1517
From: Michigan
Joined: 11-22-2009


Message 2150 of 2241 (749158)
02-02-2015 2:28 PM
Reply to: Message 2145 by ringo
02-02-2015 11:03 AM


Re: An irreconcilable clash of world views
The Protestant Reformation was about political power.

Now ringo, don't be guilty of thinking about this in only 1 dimension. The Reformation came about because of a complex mix of reasons; some of the spiritual, some political, some social, some natural consequences of humanism that began taking shape in Europe a couple hundred years earlier. Spirituality DID play a major role in the Reformation. It is just not a simple set of reasons. Much like all major world events such as WWI, WWII, the Renaissance, etc.

HBD


Whoever calls me ignorant shares my own opinion. Sorrowfully and tacitly I recognize my ignorance, when I consider how much I lack of what my mind in its craving for knowledge is sighing for... I console myself with the consideration that this belongs to our common nature. - Francesco Petrarca

"Nothing is easier than to persuade people who want to be persuaded and already believe." - another Petrarca gem.

Ignorance is a most formidable opponent rivaled only by arrogance; but when the two join forces, one is all but invincible.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 2145 by ringo, posted 02-02-2015 11:03 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 2178 by ringo, posted 02-03-2015 10:54 AM herebedragons has not yet responded

  
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