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Author Topic:   Is the Bible the inerrant word of God? Or is it the words of men?
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 105 of 2241 (738083)
10-04-2014 5:36 PM
Reply to: Message 104 by djufo
10-04-2014 3:21 PM


Re: All in the same boat
The mayans depicted the same deities depicted in mesopotamia, as the ones in ancient India and Peru. What technology they used to communicate and create this story to later confuse humans? thats a total mystery.

Could you provide more detail on this? Which deities are the same? How does this relate to the topic of the Bible?


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 104 by djufo, posted 10-04-2014 3:21 PM djufo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 106 by djufo, posted 10-04-2014 5:50 PM NoNukes has responded
 Message 107 by djufo, posted 10-04-2014 5:57 PM NoNukes has acknowledged this reply

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 112 of 2241 (738157)
10-05-2014 12:35 PM
Reply to: Message 106 by djufo
10-04-2014 5:50 PM


Re: All in the same boat
Quetzalcoatl, which was the same God know to the Mayans as Kukulkan. The "plummed serpent" God. The same God was know to the Incas as Viracocha.

Thanks for your detailed answer. Hopefully this demonstrates that you are not just flitting about. And there is no need for a post naming all o the similarities. I'd prefer that you just present your best case examples. If these were not the best, feel free to give others.

If these are the best examples, I have to point out that I'm having some issues with identifying the three as being the same. Quetzalcoatl and Kukulkan were some kind of plumed serpents, yes, But Viracocha was apparently human-like in appearance. Further, the link and similarities between Quetzalcoatl and Kukulkan do not appear to be any more mysterious and needing of explanation than do the similarities between Zeus and Jupiter.

On the other hand, the God in the Bible is not described as teaching technology and arts, or creating cities. He is described as destroying all of those things once.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 106 by djufo, posted 10-04-2014 5:50 PM djufo has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 113 by jar, posted 10-05-2014 1:40 PM NoNukes has acknowledged this reply

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 118 of 2241 (738177)
10-05-2014 5:33 PM
Reply to: Message 115 by Phat
10-05-2014 3:52 PM


Re: All in the same boat
Its quite a blanket assertion to declare that--just because we don't know the truth that nobody does.

I agree that if we used "We don't know" so "nobody knows" that we would be using bad logic. But it is just your unfounded notion that we are using that bad argument.

We could instead note that everybody who gains an understanding about the origin of the universe through their religion has done so through belief. Thus they don't actually know regardless of the strength of their conviction. I am quite comfortable with generalizing in such a way.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 115 by Phat, posted 10-05-2014 3:52 PM Phat has not yet responded

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 139 of 2241 (738383)
10-09-2014 4:42 PM
Reply to: Message 138 by Faith
10-09-2014 4:02 PM


Re: 3 in one
I recall a debate with Alter2Ego in which A2E took the position that the Bible did not support the Trinity. Perhaps you could just point to your best arguments from that thread? Surely a pointer or two will turn up some really good arguments.

I believe the thread is Bible Teachings or Traditions of Men?. Your first post on the subject of the Trinity is Message 20.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 138 by Faith, posted 10-09-2014 4:02 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 140 by Faith, posted 10-09-2014 4:58 PM NoNukes has not yet responded

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 145 of 2241 (738401)
10-09-2014 8:39 PM
Reply to: Message 142 by Faith
10-09-2014 8:07 PM


Re: 3 in one
What I linked was evidence for the Trinity. Evidence.

I'd consider it to be primarily argument. But there is nothing wrong with that.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 142 by Faith, posted 10-09-2014 8:07 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 147 by Faith, posted 10-09-2014 9:26 PM NoNukes has responded

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 146 of 2241 (738402)
10-09-2014 8:48 PM
Reply to: Message 143 by Percy
10-09-2014 8:19 PM


Re: 3 in one
Whether the Bible is the inerrant Word of God is the thread's topic, and I think you'd need to prove that first. You're not going to prove the trinity quoting verses made up by men.

Perhaps not.

But I'd be satisfied with just a strong argument that Trinity doctrine is even described in the Bible. If Trinitarians are correct, they ought to be able to do that.

Most people who have been in such arguments are aware the every single one of the pro arguments has very sound rebuttals. And of course, this is a debate site and not Fundamentalist Bible School night.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 143 by Percy, posted 10-09-2014 8:19 PM Percy has acknowledged this reply

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 148 of 2241 (738406)
10-09-2014 10:20 PM
Reply to: Message 147 by Faith
10-09-2014 9:26 PM


Re: 3 in one
...but there was some sort of preamble to the list explaining...

I'm familiar with the arguments. I don't find the arguments all that persuasive. I'm aware that you do.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 147 by Faith, posted 10-09-2014 9:26 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 149 by Faith, posted 10-10-2014 1:51 AM NoNukes has responded

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 150 of 2241 (738412)
10-10-2014 8:05 AM
Reply to: Message 149 by Faith
10-10-2014 1:51 AM


Re: 3 in one
Is THIS what you are referring to? I don't see an argument there so much as a compilation of the scripture verses from which the Trinity was originally derived.

I didn't follow the link. Since you've indicated that you don't wish to discuss it, I'm not going to bother with it at this time. I expect that a discussion of the topic would proceed pretty much like the mind/brain one did.

As you've already indicated, the verses don't mention the Trinity at all, so what I am calling argument would be the explanations (which I would not dignify by using the word Apologetics) showing how the verses manage to support the doctrine without actually mentioning it.

And of course, other people have also managed to point out how, in their opinion, the verses do not support the Trinity and how other verses in the Bible contradict the doctrine.

That's why I call the presentation argument. Like much fundamentalist only doctrine, Trinitarianism appears to be doctrine projected onto the Bible rather than extracted from it. And despite the tenuous nature of the Trinity doctrine, people still manage to call people who either disbelieve it, or who believe a non-standard version of the doctrine heretics and non-Christians.

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 149 by Faith, posted 10-10-2014 1:51 AM Faith has not yet responded

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 152 of 2241 (738418)
10-10-2014 12:02 PM
Reply to: Message 151 by Percy
10-10-2014 8:54 AM


Re: 3 in one
I know you don't believe the Bible is just the words of men, not God, so I don't know why you'd say this.

It seems to me that her belief that the Bible is the word of God is exactly the reason why she'd say what she says. The issue is instead that this forum is for questioning the accuracy and inerrancy.

Still, I think it is within the scope of discussion to decide exactly what the Bible does say before or in the process of questioning its accuracy.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 151 by Percy, posted 10-10-2014 8:54 AM Percy has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
 Message 154 by Faith, posted 10-10-2014 1:07 PM NoNukes has responded

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 167 of 2241 (738455)
10-10-2014 6:49 PM
Reply to: Message 154 by Faith
10-10-2014 1:07 PM


Re: 3 in one
If you really think that I would expect that you'd take a look at that link you refused to look at because that would tell you what the Bible says about the Trinity.

I'm fully aware of the arguments and verses most people cite. That only reason for following your link would be to discuss the particular arguments found at that site and you have already said you are not interested in the discussion.

My point for pointing to the previous discussion with Alter2Ego was apparently missed. You engaged in exactly the same kind of non-discussion in that thread that you are engaging in here. Providing a link, barely addressing points made in rebuttal if at all, and then claiming that people who disagree with you don't understand you or are lacking common sense.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 154 by Faith, posted 10-10-2014 1:07 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 196 of 2241 (738490)
10-11-2014 12:07 AM
Reply to: Message 194 by Faith
10-10-2014 11:18 PM


Re: 3 in one
There's no reason they would be looking for it.

Wrong. There was ample motivation.

Even if they were looking for it, it would have to be there in order to find it, and it most definitely is there, but it's too

Bible codes are in there too, along with just about any amount of numerological nonsense you might imagine. Some of that numerology is the subject matter of the sermons jack legs bellow to their congregations on Sundays.

They could just as easily all have become Arians if it wasn't in scripture.

No they couldn't do that. Their doctrine required that Arians were heretics.

Your entire post is just revisionist nonsense. The fact of the matter is that the exact relationship between Yahweh and Jesus is anything but clear from reading the Bible because the relationship is express in multiple, and inconsistent ways. Even if the Divinity of Jesus Christ an absolute requirement, there are many possible relationships Christ might have to the God of the Old Testament. It's also possible that the relationship varied over time.

But of course it is not possible that all of those various answers is completely and exclusively correct. It may in fact be the case that none of the answer people have gravitated towards are correct. What's clear is that during the early years of Christianity, people whose desire to follow Christ is beyond any question favored different approaches. Each of those factions would have the strongest and purest possible motives to justify their interpretation using scripture.

Nobody is denying the earnestness of the Trinitarians but it should not be doubted that the Arians were earnest and loved Jesus Christ with equal fervor.

Today we have doctrines like Unitarianism and Oneness that are essentially equally supportable from the Bible text. Proponents of each doctrine are sure that the others are in danger of missing salvation.

You are getting the order of things backwards.

Yikes.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 194 by Faith, posted 10-10-2014 11:18 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 202 by Phat, posted 10-11-2014 11:56 AM NoNukes has not yet responded
 Message 219 by Faith, posted 10-11-2014 2:33 PM NoNukes has not yet responded

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 230 of 2241 (738545)
10-11-2014 8:12 PM
Reply to: Message 226 by jar
10-11-2014 4:09 PM


Re: Truth?
A Bible does not exist until after a Canon list the books to be included.

'The Bible' cannot exist without a Canon. That much is true. But that lack of agreement did not stop anyone from developing scriptural doctrine from the available scriptures. And we know for a fact that people did exactly that well prior to canonization.

By and large the disagreement with Trinitarians is not about the choice of the books in the Bible. Instead it is primarily about the interpretation of scriptures essentially every protestant believes are legitimate scripture. Not saying there are no issues at all with rejected scriptures, but the debate was not the primary issue even during the early disputes about Trinitarianism. And it is not the issue even now.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 226 by jar, posted 10-11-2014 4:09 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 231 by jar, posted 10-11-2014 8:24 PM NoNukes has responded

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 232 of 2241 (738548)
10-11-2014 9:21 PM
Reply to: Message 231 by jar
10-11-2014 8:24 PM


Re: Truth?
And they developed different Canons

The Bible used by people who support the Oneness doctrine is essentially same as the one most Protestants use. Any differences are simply not much of an issue with regard to Trinitarian doctrine. Trinitarian Pentecostals find their doctrine in the same Bible that non Trinitarian Pentecostals use when they deny the doctrine.

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 231 by jar, posted 10-11-2014 8:24 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 234 by jar, posted 10-11-2014 9:32 PM NoNukes has responded

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 241 of 2241 (738558)
10-11-2014 10:37 PM
Reply to: Message 234 by jar
10-11-2014 9:32 PM


Re: Truth?
And the concept of the Trinity is and was simply a matter of folk taking verses out of scripture to try to support their position just as those who oppose the concept do.

That's fine. I agree with you. But the dispute over Trinitarianism has and continues to have very little to do with whether particular books are canonical. Historically the debate about the Triune nature of God and even the divinity of Christ precedes formal canonization by centuries.

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 234 by jar, posted 10-11-2014 9:32 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 247 by jar, posted 10-12-2014 9:05 AM NoNukes has not yet responded
 Message 252 by arachnophilia, posted 10-12-2014 6:34 PM NoNukes has acknowledged this reply

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 269 of 2241 (738609)
10-12-2014 11:50 PM
Reply to: Message 266 by Faith
10-12-2014 10:41 PM


Re: 3 in one
my observations of historical fact

How do you do this. Are you using a time machine?

How often to we catch you misquoting history; denying that things you don't like ever happened.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 266 by Faith, posted 10-12-2014 10:41 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 271 by Faith, posted 10-13-2014 12:30 AM NoNukes has responded

  
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