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Author Topic:   Is the Bible the inerrant word of God? Or is it the words of men?
Tangle
Member
Posts: 7192
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.4


(5)
Message 40 of 2241 (701530)
06-20-2013 2:14 PM
Reply to: Message 38 by GDR
06-18-2013 10:30 PM


Re: No Results
GDR writes:

We should accept the fact that the Bible is subject to the cultural and personal biases of the authors. Frankly it is only in that context that you can actually get a coherent narrative of God's interaction with us.

Heads you win, tails I lose - again.

Why can't we get a coherant narrative with God by having a coherant narrative with God? It would make more sense. Why make it so bloody obscure? It's supposed to be the most important message ever delivered to mankind, you'd expect a god to make it a bit easier to actually understand and believe.

On the other hand, if it was all made up by a few superstitious iron age desert living primitives, carried on by verbal tradition then exploited by emperors and politicians - it would look exactly like it does.


Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

This message is a reply to:
 Message 38 by GDR, posted 06-18-2013 10:30 PM GDR has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 42 by GDR, posted 06-20-2013 7:05 PM Tangle has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 7192
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.4


(2)
Message 44 of 2241 (701565)
06-21-2013 4:16 AM
Reply to: Message 42 by GDR
06-20-2013 7:05 PM


Re: No Results
qs writes:


What you seem to be looking for is an iron clad guarantee of good things ahead if you behave in the proper manner or believe the right stuff. If that were the case then we could never love freely as we would always know that in the end it was for our own selfish benefit.

No I don't. I don't give a stuff about 'good things ahead.' I don't need them or want them.

I'm simply saying that if this God actually existed and if he needed to give a message to the world, sending his son to earth to die for us then not leaving a scrap of evidence that it actually happened is simply not credible.

It's also perfectly stupid thing to do - a schoolchild could think up dozens of better methods of getting what is apparently a critical message to us.


Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

This message is a reply to:
 Message 42 by GDR, posted 06-20-2013 7:05 PM GDR has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 45 by Ossat, posted 06-21-2013 5:03 AM Tangle has responded
 Message 46 by Faith, posted 06-21-2013 5:08 AM Tangle has not yet responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 7192
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.4


(3)
Message 47 of 2241 (701570)
06-21-2013 6:47 AM
Reply to: Message 45 by Ossat
06-21-2013 5:03 AM


Re: No Results
Ossat writes:

Why does it have to be like that? If God wants to give a message, does he need to accommodate to your or anybody's requirements?

Well presumably if God wanted to give us an important message, he'd want to give the message in the best possible way so that everybody can understand it. Why would he do it any other way? Why make it impossible to believe?

The Bible is hard to understand. I don't know, but maybe God wants people to look for him with all their hearts. You are more likely to appreciate that which is hard to get

The bible is very easy to understand. It was written for primitive, simple people in a story telling manner. It's only hard to understand when modern people are trying to make it fit into their reality - they know it doesn't work so they have to dissemble and contrive a fit.


Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

This message is a reply to:
 Message 45 by Ossat, posted 06-21-2013 5:03 AM Ossat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 48 by Ossat, posted 06-21-2013 7:50 AM Tangle has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 7192
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.4


(3)
Message 49 of 2241 (701572)
06-21-2013 8:41 AM
Reply to: Message 48 by Ossat
06-21-2013 7:50 AM


Re: No Results
Ossat writes:

Who says the best possible way is necessarily the easiest way for all of us to understand?

Well I'd start with the entire teaching profession, then work outwards.
It's obviously absurd to say that the harder the message is to understand the easier it is to understand.

Don’t you feel more proud of yourself when you achieve something that was hard for you? Don’t you value it more?

God's message isn't an IQ test - it's supposed to be universal.

And what makes you think those people were simple?

Well they lived 2000 years ago, it's normally regarded modern people know rather more than they did.

Our life is more fancy but we had the advantage of the knowledge accumulated through much more generations.

Well, yes, exactly, we have that advantage - 2000 years of it.

You don’t seem to be interested in the Bible, and that’s ok, you don’t have to like it; but if you ever try hard to look for God’s message in it, I’m sure you’ll find it

I understand the bible perfectly. It's a simple book of stories. Having to look further actually means giving a different meaning to the actual words. A believer could find 'god's message' in car repair manual - that's hardly the point.

Now have a think - if you wanted to give a universal message to the world, would you do it this way?


Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

This message is a reply to:
 Message 48 by Ossat, posted 06-21-2013 7:50 AM Ossat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 58 by Ossat, posted 06-22-2013 10:48 AM Tangle has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 7192
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.4


Message 60 of 2241 (701620)
06-22-2013 11:45 AM
Reply to: Message 58 by Ossat
06-22-2013 10:48 AM


Re: No Results
Ossat writes:

You seem to give to "best" and "easy" the same meaning

Since when is something that is hard to learn the best? The harder something is the fewer people will understand it. The message is supposed to be universally understood.

It is not about IQ, it is about give your best to learn from GodBut that doesn't make them less smart. They could've had less knowledge in, say, technology than us, but they could've been more skilled than us at the moment of using their own knowledge. And like I said they could've seen things we didn't

They could've been 500 feet tall, but I'm betting they weren't. Come on, they were iron age, poor, superstitious and illiterate.

Again, it is not about how would I or you give a universal message, but how God has done it. If you wanted to understand God's message you'd need to accommodate to His way of talking, not the other way around. You look at it from your own logic and biases, you would need and easy message in order to believe, one that you wouldn't need to work hard to get it, and that I think, is not gonna happen

Why are all arguments put by believers back to front? I'm saying that if this god needed to give mankind the most important message it's possible to get and give it to everyone, he needed to do it in a much better way than he actually did. That isn't a 'knowing the mind of god' problem, it's a knowing the 'mind of man' problem. Any idiot could have done a better job.


Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

This message is a reply to:
 Message 58 by Ossat, posted 06-22-2013 10:48 AM Ossat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 61 by Ossat, posted 06-22-2013 12:04 PM Tangle has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 7192
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.4


(2)
Message 63 of 2241 (701629)
06-22-2013 4:41 PM
Reply to: Message 61 by Ossat
06-22-2013 12:04 PM


Re: No Results
Ossat writes:

I think we are going in circles here.

Well yes we are, that's because you're saying some straight forwardly wrong things - hard to understand messages are the best way of communicating and iron age, uneducated, illiterate, primitive tribal people are as knowledgeable as we are.

But hey-ho, that's the way the believer's mind appears to work.


Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

This message is a reply to:
 Message 61 by Ossat, posted 06-22-2013 12:04 PM Ossat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 67 by Ossat, posted 06-23-2013 5:09 AM Tangle has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 7192
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.4


Message 69 of 2241 (701645)
06-23-2013 5:23 AM
Reply to: Message 67 by Ossat
06-23-2013 5:09 AM


Re: No Results
Ossat writes:

I can say that for you all people of the past is stupid and only things that are easy to understand are true

Well you could say that, but then you'd be wrong about that too, wouldn't you?

Two wrongs just make you wrong twice.


Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

This message is a reply to:
 Message 67 by Ossat, posted 06-23-2013 5:09 AM Ossat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 71 by Ossat, posted 06-23-2013 6:19 AM Tangle has not yet responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 7192
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.4


(2)
Message 87 of 2241 (701781)
06-26-2013 6:09 AM
Reply to: Message 84 by Ossat
06-26-2013 4:32 AM


GDR writes:

He also died Himself for the whole world.

This is the most bonkers tale of the entire bible.

1. God didn't die
2. His 'son' (whatever that is supposed to mean) was allegedly killed, but he then came back to life.

So, in fact, God made no sacrifice.

That is, of course, quite apart from the fact that sending your son to be killed to save mankind from our sins - the very ones he allowed us to commit by creating evil in the first place - is patently stupid.

As ideas go, it's one of the worst. Just simply childish nonsense.


Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

This message is a reply to:
 Message 84 by Ossat, posted 06-26-2013 4:32 AM Ossat has not yet responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 7192
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.4


Message 286 of 2241 (738650)
10-13-2014 3:06 PM
Reply to: Message 285 by Faith
10-13-2014 2:38 PM


Re: 3 in one
Er, Catholicism is the mainstream, your lot split, remember?

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 285 by Faith, posted 10-13-2014 2:38 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 287 by Faith, posted 10-13-2014 3:12 PM Tangle has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 7192
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.4


Message 288 of 2241 (738652)
10-13-2014 3:23 PM
Reply to: Message 287 by Faith
10-13-2014 3:12 PM


Re: 3 in one
...about 500 years ago. You guys are latecomers to the 'my religion is better than yours' party.'

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 287 by Faith, posted 10-13-2014 3:12 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 289 by Faith, posted 10-13-2014 3:40 PM Tangle has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 7192
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.4


(1)
Message 290 of 2241 (738654)
10-13-2014 3:52 PM
Reply to: Message 289 by Faith
10-13-2014 3:40 PM


Re: 3 in one
Faith, I've been reading your stuff for years, I could pretend to be you by now. I can write your next line. I'm just amazed at your consistent inconsistency.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 289 by Faith, posted 10-13-2014 3:40 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 292 by Faith, posted 10-13-2014 7:24 PM Tangle has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 7192
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.4


Message 299 of 2241 (738671)
10-14-2014 6:42 AM
Reply to: Message 292 by Faith
10-13-2014 7:24 PM


Re: Review of the False Church of Rome
Faith writes:

ust for the record I'll do the subject again about why Romanism isn't even a Christian Church,

Like, I say, your cult was a bit late to this 'best religion' game. Just a millenium or so.

It's one of the great unexplained mysteries for the dispassionate observer - how the hell can there be thousands of sects from just one form of one religious belief? And then how can there be thousands of others religious forms with totally different beliefs? All the members of which - just like you - claiming the one they happen to be attached to is the correct one.

This on top of the self-evident fact that people by-and-large believe whatever their parents did - which is just a random event. If you'd been born in Iran, you would not believe what you believe now - you'd almost certainly be one of those fervent Muslims that you so resent.


Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 292 by Faith, posted 10-13-2014 7:24 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 304 by NoNukes, posted 10-14-2014 11:27 AM Tangle has not yet responded
 Message 309 by Faith, posted 10-14-2014 1:25 PM Tangle has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 7192
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.4


Message 314 of 2241 (738703)
10-14-2014 2:02 PM
Reply to: Message 309 by Faith
10-14-2014 1:25 PM


Re: Review of the False Church of Rome
Faith writes:

It's amazing that I can show by comparison with scripture that the Roman Church isn't Christian and that doesn't mean anything to anybody.

There's so much wrong with that sentence that I can't even start explaining why it's nonsense from the first syllable to the last.

You realise that you are trying to explain to me why black is, in fact, white - I just need to believe your version of a mythological tale for it to be true?

Catholics aren't Christians. Pfffnrrr. You'll be telling me that my arse doesn't hold up my pants next.


Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 309 by Faith, posted 10-14-2014 1:25 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 315 by Faith, posted 10-14-2014 2:05 PM Tangle has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 7192
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.4


Message 327 of 2241 (738719)
10-14-2014 4:57 PM
Reply to: Message 315 by Faith
10-14-2014 2:05 PM


Re: Review of the False Church of Rome
Would you be a Christian had you been born in Iraq?

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 315 by Faith, posted 10-14-2014 2:05 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 328 by Thugpreacha, posted 10-14-2014 5:06 PM Tangle has not yet responded
 Message 330 by Faith, posted 10-14-2014 6:01 PM Tangle has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 7192
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.4


Message 345 of 2241 (738743)
10-15-2014 3:40 AM
Reply to: Message 330 by Faith
10-14-2014 6:01 PM


Would I be a Christian if I'd been born in Iraq? It's possible. There are Christian Iraqis. Or were, they've been driven out by the Islamic State in great numbers recently.

It's just about possible but entirely improbable and then only if your parents had been Christian. Had you been born anytime before mass transit, you wouldn't have even heard of other religions - or even atheism - nor would you have the time and luxury to worry about life the universe and everything. You'd be doing what your neighbours did, breeding children and praying to Allah.

The Christian answer to your question is that God elects those He chooses to save, from every culture in the world. I consider myself one of those extremely fortunate people.

That is not a Christian answer - that is your made up answer and it's extraordinary immoral and unjust. The billions of pepole that God has not selected for no other reason than the random chance of birth are, according to you, not getting into heaven. That is a pretty revolting idea, not worthy of even the lowliest god.

But I guess it's ok because he's chosen you? So much for the meek and the mild.


Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 330 by Faith, posted 10-14-2014 6:01 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 346 by Faith, posted 10-15-2014 4:43 AM Tangle has not yet responded

  
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