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Author Topic:   Is the Bible the inerrant word of God? Or is it the words of men?
Golffly
Member (Idle past 3108 days)
Posts: 287
Joined: 12-19-2014


Message 1441 of 2241 (747005)
01-11-2015 1:30 PM
Reply to: Message 1434 by NoNukes
01-11-2015 10:57 AM


Re: chapter and verse
no nukes writes:
We don't know how Noah knew. We also don't know the age Noah became potty trained or how he figured out how to be righteous before the ten commandments were even given to Moses. Is that really an inconsistency?
Well it is an inconsistency. Albeit minor.
Look through Lev11 and see how nonsensical it is. It's not easy. There is no reason to expect he should know without that absurd list ( contradicted elsewhere as well)
The other reason is kind of say " Faith think". Say there was another guy called Billy. Ole Billy was part of the gang wiped out in the non- existent flood. Anyway, say the bible said Billy was busy sorting through clean and unclean animals. Faith would be the first to say that heathen Billy couldn't know clean from unclean, god didn't spell that out until Leviticus! You imbecile.
So it's inconsistent, but you point isn't lost. It isn't much.
The other point which Faith conveniently ignored was the righteous thing. God calls, as far as my memory goes, only two people righteous in the bible. ( I mean two as opposed to seven. Or having seven equal two sometimes but not always). One is Noah. The other is Lot ( the daughter screwer). The best god could come up with is Noah and an incestuous man to call righteous men.
Anyway, Romans 3:10 says no one is righteous. Isaiah 64:6, Job 15:4 imply no one is righteous.
This one I call an outright contradiction.
( Also, as you say, there is no way anybody could have any righteousness before the 10C anyway )))). )

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1434 by NoNukes, posted 01-11-2015 10:57 AM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1442 by Faith, posted 01-11-2015 1:40 PM Golffly has replied
 Message 1449 by NoNukes, posted 01-11-2015 2:56 PM Golffly has replied

  
Golffly
Member (Idle past 3108 days)
Posts: 287
Joined: 12-19-2014


Message 1445 of 2241 (747010)
01-11-2015 2:24 PM
Reply to: Message 1442 by Faith
01-11-2015 1:40 PM


Re: chapter and verse
faith writes:
I also answered your silly idea that calling Noah righteous implies perfection. Did you manage not to read that one too?
Faith god calls Noah righteous here:
Gen 7:1......for thee I have seen righteous...
Then numerous places in bible they suggest there is no such thing as a righteous man.
If your point is no one is perfect, then you're wrong again:
Job 2:3. Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a PERFECT an upright man....
So no matter how you want to spin it. You are wrong.
The problem you have is believing apologists. Apologists lie routinely and with no embarrassment. Stop believing them will serve you better.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1442 by Faith, posted 01-11-2015 1:40 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1455 by Faith, posted 01-11-2015 5:37 PM Golffly has not replied

  
Golffly
Member (Idle past 3108 days)
Posts: 287
Joined: 12-19-2014


Message 1446 of 2241 (747011)
01-11-2015 2:26 PM
Reply to: Message 1444 by Faith
01-11-2015 2:02 PM


Re: chapter and verse
faith writes:
lI see. So if I'm civil they won't lie about what I said?
When you repeat apologist bunk, it will likely be a lie.
Consider using some self thought and bible reading instead.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1444 by Faith, posted 01-11-2015 2:02 PM Faith has not replied

  
Golffly
Member (Idle past 3108 days)
Posts: 287
Joined: 12-19-2014


Message 1450 of 2241 (747017)
01-11-2015 3:04 PM
Reply to: Message 1448 by NoNukes
01-11-2015 2:42 PM


Re: chapter and verse
no nukes writes:
Sigh. Except that we know for a fact that some animals are not good to eat. We also know despite your insistence otherwise, that it is not that clear that any food law was rescinded.
It's also not clear the laws of Leviticus were used either.
These here imply you can eat anything
Gen9:3 ( came up earlier) Luke 10:8. Romans 14:2
Roman14.2 There is nothing unclean of itself

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1448 by NoNukes, posted 01-11-2015 2:42 PM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1453 by NoNukes, posted 01-11-2015 3:11 PM Golffly has not replied

  
Golffly
Member (Idle past 3108 days)
Posts: 287
Joined: 12-19-2014


Message 1452 of 2241 (747019)
01-11-2015 3:06 PM
Reply to: Message 1449 by NoNukes
01-11-2015 2:56 PM


Re: chapter and verse
no nukes writes:
At this point, she's probably committed to not making that argument. As much as I like picking at bad arguments, I still think we should wait until the bad argument is actually made before accusing someone.
You are correct. Thanks.
We may not have to wait long anyway.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1449 by NoNukes, posted 01-11-2015 2:56 PM NoNukes has not replied

  
Golffly
Member (Idle past 3108 days)
Posts: 287
Joined: 12-19-2014


Message 1459 of 2241 (747033)
01-11-2015 6:16 PM
Reply to: Message 1456 by Faith
01-11-2015 5:46 PM


Re: chapter and verse
faith writes:
You really don't regard Peter's vision of the animals on the sheet as rescinding the food laws? This is recounted in Acts 10 and again in Acts 11. He was told not to despise the foods of the Gentiles as he was being sent to them, not to despise their food and not themselves either.
Some peoples eat insects, even cats and dogs etc. Blood sausage is a specialty in some places but the very thought would make an observant Jew sick. God does not say not to eat such things.
There is really some incredibly stupid comments on eating in the bible and I will leave to you to decide about god approval.
Ezekiel 4:12,15 And thou shalt eat it as barley cakes, and thou shalt bake it with dung that cometh out of man.
( so we have a shit cake here)
2 Kings 18:27
....hath he not sent me to the men which sit on the wall, that they may eat their own dung, and drink their own piss with you?
You would have a hard time making up something stupider than this.
Faith I can do this absurdity from the bible stuff with whatever you want to bring up. Please consider not believing what you read on these Christian sites and particularly apologists. Consider reading logically and looking at information not fully sanitized and justified from sites that frankly outright lie.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1456 by Faith, posted 01-11-2015 5:46 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1462 by Faith, posted 01-11-2015 6:36 PM Golffly has replied

  
Golffly
Member (Idle past 3108 days)
Posts: 287
Joined: 12-19-2014


Message 1460 of 2241 (747034)
01-11-2015 6:26 PM
Reply to: Message 1458 by Faith
01-11-2015 6:12 PM


Re: chapter and verse
faith writes:
The epic of Gilgamesh is one account of the Flood, there were many of them floating around, and still are all over the world. Distorted and twisted accounts. The account of Noah is the true account, it came down from Noah himself through Shem to Abraham and his descendants to Moses.
Faith, I have read about four flood accounts. You know what they all have in common. Some god is pissed. He floods the earth. Some hero exists.
They are all the same that way and none of them happened.
Noah is no more unique than any other flood myth and indeed is most likely a copy of prior mythical flood. And, there is no scientific support for it but ample disproof. Insurmountable disproof actually.
God gave you brain, he wouldn't be insulted if you applied it. No where in the bible does it say you aren't allowed to think for yourself.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1458 by Faith, posted 01-11-2015 6:12 PM Faith has not replied

  
Golffly
Member (Idle past 3108 days)
Posts: 287
Joined: 12-19-2014


Message 1464 of 2241 (747038)
01-11-2015 6:45 PM
Reply to: Message 1462 by Faith
01-11-2015 6:36 PM


Re: chapter and verse
faith writes:
Good grief you are an arrogant know-nothing. Ezekiel was called to be a symbol of degradation and deprivation to Israel which would come upon them because of their sins, hardly to be an example of normal eating; and if you read the passage you know that God yielded to his plea to be spared the worst, for Ezekiel's own sake though He did not lift the prophecy for Israel. Also your ignorance fails to appreciate that the dung was to be the fuel not the food.
The second reference you give is also to a prophetic picture of coming judgment against Israel, obviously a horrible judgment, which of course you have no ability to understand.
And how dare you dictate to me how I am to understand the Bible.
There are a few ways to read that absurdity.
The bible is not hard to understand. But believing apologists is not going to do it. They do not care about the truth. Their only objective to preserving some belief. Broaden your knowledge base and consider reading opposing views.
You would not go to only a Muslim site to find out about Islam. You'd read opinions contrary to it as well. The bible is just a book after all.
Edited by Golffly, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1462 by Faith, posted 01-11-2015 6:36 PM Faith has not replied

  
Golffly
Member (Idle past 3108 days)
Posts: 287
Joined: 12-19-2014


Message 1477 of 2241 (747051)
01-11-2015 8:03 PM
Reply to: Message 1474 by jar
01-11-2015 7:45 PM


Re: The existence of "Commentary" proves the Bible is just the words of men.
jar writes:
The very existence of "Commentary" proves the Bible is just the words of men.
If the Bible was actually the inerrant word of God there would be no need of any commentary unless the God was unable to say what She meant and avoid saying contradictory and absolutely false statements.
But commentary exists and it exists simple because the Bible is filled with errors, falsehoods, contradictions and ambiguity.
That was obvious even before any Bible existed and began with Paul and the author of John's gospel trying to change, revise and rewrite some of the more obvious immediate problems. A major problem was the need to redefine the whole meaning of "messiah" and explain away the fact that Jesus said the end would come during the lifetime of the Disciples.
So Paul as well as the authors of John and some of the Epistles began the process of explaining away the discrepancies and it continued down through all of the various "Commenters".
Wow. I would have thought you had a different thought process. For what it's worth, I consider this spot on.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1474 by jar, posted 01-11-2015 7:45 PM jar has not replied

  
Golffly
Member (Idle past 3108 days)
Posts: 287
Joined: 12-19-2014


Message 1481 of 2241 (747055)
01-11-2015 8:46 PM
Reply to: Message 1480 by dwise1
01-11-2015 8:27 PM


Re: chapter and verse
Thanks Dwise1, in my view that was superb.
What we see here is a theology that makes a bible fit it.
The last long post of faith turned my stomach. It's such deluded bunk, I can't handle it now.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1480 by dwise1, posted 01-11-2015 8:27 PM dwise1 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1484 by dwise1, posted 01-11-2015 9:30 PM Golffly has not replied

  
Golffly
Member (Idle past 3108 days)
Posts: 287
Joined: 12-19-2014


Message 1498 of 2241 (747075)
01-12-2015 9:22 AM
Reply to: Message 1494 by Phat
01-12-2015 6:50 AM


Re: chapter and verse
no nukes writes:
NoNukes writes:
That line of argument is nonsense. Instead, Abraham fully expected that he was going to slice up Isaac. When Abraham told Isaac that God would provide a lamb, Abraham fully believed Isaac was over. He certainly didn't tell Isaac of any expectation that Isaac was going to be resurrected.
And for good reason. God had no intention of resurrecting Isaac. Abraham had no clue how God was going to resolve things.
phat writes:
Abraham had no idea what was going to happen next. Logic told him that Isaac was doomed, but His inner spirit trusted God to be faithful. I don't know where you get your line of reasoning, but it is faulty in light of who God is. Where, for example, could you even surmise that God had no intention of rescuing Isaac??
There is a story similar to Abraham/Isaac.
It is in Judges and perhaps we're familiar, if not I'll recap.
Judges 11:29-
-The spirit of the Lord enters Jephthah. One would think that would be a good thing but alas, many times it isn't.
-If god helps kill the Ammonites, Jephthah will perform a human sacrifice on whoever comes out first from his house. ( Kind of a nice thought)
-Well god comes through on his end and a "very great slaughter" occurs. Thanks god.
-Who comes out of Jephthah's house. His bouncing daughter.
- After the daughter spends a couple months wailing about her virginity. Jephthah offers her as a burnt offering to the lord as promised, keeping his end of the bargain
So we have some similarity in that a human sacrifice is to be performed on behalf of god. God has in his power to stop it, substitute a lamb or (as I now learn by some fantastical bible rewriting by Faith) resurrect the daughter.
But the daughter is killed. No lamb is substituted. No resurrection occurs. Oops.
So when phat says "could you even surmise that God had no intention of rescuing Isaac"?
Well, indeed, after reading the whole bible. Seeing god murder all over the place, for no reason given, for immoral reasons, for absurd reasons... then have an example of actual human sacrifice...the answer is it is surprising that Isaac doesn't get his neck slit by his father and never to be heard from again.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1494 by Phat, posted 01-12-2015 6:50 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Golffly
Member (Idle past 3108 days)
Posts: 287
Joined: 12-19-2014


Message 1501 of 2241 (747085)
01-12-2015 10:48 AM
Reply to: Message 1500 by Faith
01-12-2015 10:27 AM


Re: chapter and verse
faith writes:
According to Hebrews 11, and I believe you agreed with this, Abraham expected God to raise Isaac from the dead, and you can see in the facts of Genesis 22 that he had this expectation. I don't recall saying anything about his telling Isaac this but he certainly had this expectation. He intended to kill Isaac and he completely believed what God had promised about making a great nation through Isaac. What else could this imply but that God would raise Isaac from the dead as Hebrews said he thought?
You are reverse quote mining. And it doesn't support a thing you say.
You have ( apologists) made up everything you are writing to try and explain why a god would torture a father psychologically, to make him think he had to kill his son, for God.
In short, you are rewriting the bible the way you'd like it to be.
Edited by Admin, : Fix quote.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1500 by Faith, posted 01-12-2015 10:27 AM Faith has not replied

  
Golffly
Member (Idle past 3108 days)
Posts: 287
Joined: 12-19-2014


(1)
Message 1505 of 2241 (747097)
01-12-2015 11:51 AM
Reply to: Message 1499 by Faith
01-12-2015 10:18 AM


Re: chapter and verse
faith writes:
. I arrived in this camp after a tour of lots of other camps so it's not that I just fell into it, I chose it. This is how I can claim to represent them, not perfectly, just by belonging to the same doctrinal tribe.
How do you think you logically came to this camp, when you haven't shown the ability assess the validity of what your camp tells you?
What you've done is parrot what you've been told. Accept it and rationalize it. But there hasn't been any independent thought shown.
Why should we be expected to believe you are capable of assessing one camp vs. another camp.
Edited by Golffly, : spelling

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1499 by Faith, posted 01-12-2015 10:18 AM Faith has not replied

  
Golffly
Member (Idle past 3108 days)
Posts: 287
Joined: 12-19-2014


Message 1513 of 2241 (747116)
01-12-2015 1:02 PM
Reply to: Message 1509 by Faith
01-12-2015 12:21 PM


Re: oh it is indeed evidence of God's inspiration
faith writes:
Clearly nobody here read or thought about my Message 1502 since nothing anyone said is the slightest bit relevant to it. The facts are in the text, nothing I could have made up myself, or "quote mined" out of context. But such kneejerk unthinking debunkery is typical here.
And a good response to that;
jar writes:
What you post are great examples of attempting to create prophecy after the fact, a con game. It it is just another attempt to try to shoehorn Jesus into the Old Testament and is no more successful today than it was 2000 years ago. It is at best an example of willful ignorance but more likely simply dishonesty.
Dishonesty from whoever started your theology. Followed up by followers who lack the capacity to think or question because it often leads to a lack of faith.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1509 by Faith, posted 01-12-2015 12:21 PM Faith has not replied

  
Golffly
Member (Idle past 3108 days)
Posts: 287
Joined: 12-19-2014


Message 1517 of 2241 (747124)
01-12-2015 1:38 PM
Reply to: Message 1515 by Faith
01-12-2015 1:25 PM


Re: 'tis indeed evidence of inspiration by God
faith writes:
I offer Message 1502 again, for anyone who will actually THINK about it, since nobody who has responded so far has done so.
This is the best I could do Faith.
There is a story similar to Abraham/Isaac.
It is in Judges and perhaps we're familiar, if not I'll recap.
Judges 11:29-
-The spirit of the Lord enters Jephthah. One would think that would be a good thing but alas, many times it isn't.
-If god helps kill the Ammonites, Jephthah will perform a human sacrifice on whoever comes out first from his house. ( Kind of a nice thought)
-Well god comes through on his end and a "very great slaughter" occurs. Thanks god.
-Who comes out of Jephthah's house. His bouncing daughter.
- After the daughter spends a couple months wailing about her virginity. Jephthah offers her as a burnt offering to the lord as promised, keeping his end of the bargain
So we have some similarity in that a human sacrifice is to be performed on behalf of god. God has in his power to stop it, substitute a lamb or (as I now learn by some fantastical bible rewriting by Faith) resurrect the daughter.
But the daughter is killed. No lamb is substituted. No resurrection occurs. Oops.
So when phat says "could you even surmise that God had no intention of rescuing Isaac"?
Well, indeed, after reading the whole bible. Seeing god murder all over the place, for no reason given, for immoral reasons, for absurd reasons... then have an example of actual human sacrifice...the answer is it is surprising that Isaac doesn't get his neck slit by his father and never to be heard from again.
So the short answer to your post is apologists made up every single
word of your post. There is no bible support for it. It's classic quote mining. There is no reason that any person reading the bible could come to that conclusion. There is no rational way to come the conclusion you summarized. Thus there is no rational answer that can be provided except apologists make up shit, the poor followers believe it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1515 by Faith, posted 01-12-2015 1:25 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1518 by Faith, posted 01-12-2015 1:42 PM Golffly has replied

  
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