Summations Only

If Treasure Island were written by a bunch of ghostwriters, it could be argued that the story would lose the heart of the original author. Old and treasured stories are old and treasured--in part--because of the readers identification with the author. Some examples: Granted the story...the content....is entertaining regardless if John Steinbeck actually wrote it or not. But do you get my point? What if we found it was really written by an obscure ghost writer? Would that revelation not impact us? Again, what if we found that 1984 was really written by an obscure man by the name of Harold Foster!
Many a bibliophile would be greatly affected by such a bombshell revelation.Ok lets take your favorite: How would it change the romantic wistful appeal of such a book if it were revealed that the true author was an obscure person from anywhere known by no one and having no other credentials nor reputable works aside from that one?

Lets analyze this a moment, shall we?Should authenticity in content--the thing or idea being expressed--be necessitated by authenticity in source(Author)?I would argue that the intentions of the author play into this.As A Christian, I would prefer quite naturally that the author be inspired.

To have an author with ulterior (being beyond what is seen or avowed; intentionally kept concealed) motive would cause me to doubt the validity of the entire faith.

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Intention is equatable to the source of the wisdom. Good intentions come through good Spirits.Bad intentions come through bad spirits. Is the author intentionally representing the Holy Spirit?

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Edited by Phat, : fixed quote

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Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

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Saying, "I don't know," is the same as saying, "Maybe."~ZombieRingo

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It's easy to see the speck in somebody else's ideas - unless it's blocked by the beam in your own.~Ringo

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If a savage stops believing in his wooden god, it does not mean that there is no God only that God is not wooden. (Leo Tolstoy)

Which means that belief basically boils down to choice, just as it always has. jar and I may not agree on the methodology that the Creator of all seen and unseen uses with which to establish communion with humanity(or ants, for that matter )but one thing we both see is the idea that Gods gift to humanity was the knowledge of good and evil. We have a choice. There is no excuse. We can't say that we never learned anything from the Bible or any other good book. Everyone has a choice to embrace their inner faith, question it, or ultimately reject it. This choice exists even if the Bible were actually written by an obscure single Mom from NYC.Source or Content? What is a good passage? What is a bad passage? Why? (some questions to bounce around)

I have a quick off-topic question: Is this Hoyle of whom you speak the same guy that wrote the rulebook on all card games? Edmond Hoyle

I've been down the same path,I think. It did not make sense to me to believe in a God who made me choose what is good and what is evil. I always wanted God to govern my life and make decisions for me. And...logically...if His "good book" was wrong...how could I trust Him or believe in Him?I had to then ask myself several questions.

If GOD exists, what sort of GOD would I want Him to be?

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If GOD ran my life and guided me with wisdom, how would I know what He wanted me to do or be if His book was written by fallible and competitive humans with ulterior motives and personal agendas?

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If the Bible were in error, how would I ever know what God mean't for my life?

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ringo writes:

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Why can't it be authentic fiction?

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golffly,responding to ringo writes:

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I prefer, not necessarily authentic but fiction anyway.

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Sounds to me like you are glad that the Bible is largely fictitious and not authentic. Perhaps this alleviates your responsibility in some way?

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Saying, "I don't know," is the same as saying, "Maybe."~ZombieRingo

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It's easy to see the speck in somebody else's ideas - unless it's blocked by the beam in your own.~Ringo

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If a savage stops believing in his wooden god, it does not mean that there is no God only that God is not wooden. (Leo Tolstoy)

Did the storytelling change after Jesus? Are the stories of necessity "stuff that humans make up" or are these human authors inspired from a source apart from their imaginations?

I assumed that he was anti CCoI. I was questioning him in regards to his understanding of who God is. Who gives us the responsibility? Who "charges" us?Edited by Phat, : No reason given.Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

How are you doing, Golffly? Try and come to chat if you can. Right click on the chat in order to run the application. You are an interesting chap and I would like to get to know you better!I will grant that people were more superstitious in the past than they are now---in general.I disagree that the stories were made up, though I cannot disprove your theory.

Its quite alright. We shall meet someday.(at least on the internet)As far as my quick answer regarding this topic? I say both. The Bible is the word of God...expressed through fallible humanity. The Bible is far from infallible, but the message that we can learn from it cannot be improved, in my opinion.And yes...the Bible was written by humans. The question for the jury--at least in my mind--is whether these humans had any ulterior motives in their writing.

Abraham had no idea what was going to happen next. Logic told him that Isaac was doomed, but His inner spirit trusted God to be faithful. I don't know where you get your line of reasoning, but it is faulty in light of who God is. Where, for example, could you even surmise that God had no intention of rescuing Isaac??

Christianity is unique in that God found us---we did not have to go seeking Him.Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

I have been observing this debate for awhile now. Whenever I judge something to be true or false, I not only take into consideration what is said, but who said it and if possible a character evaluation of such an individual. Critics would assert that humans by nature do not want to believe it because it would mean that we would have to be accountable to such a God and we by nature do not want this to be true. I have examined many arguments both pro and con. Neither side has a monopoly on conclusiveness.I will say that Christians whom I know personally have good character and are not prone to making rash assertions in everyday life.Characters in the Bible, such as Saul of Tarsus aka Paul do not strike me as having any ulterior motive--simply a great amount of zeal--which one would expect had one actually had a supernatural encounter.I realize that what some would call the "woo factor" is unprovable and so I wont attempt to do so.We need to ask ourselves if the stories themselves have any weight or merit in regards to human nature and destiny or whether they----as critics suggest---are propaganda for a new religion.I believe as i do because I see evidence nearly every day of lives changing for the better.

It is obvious that any book known is and was written by men. The question we are left with,in my mind, is the motives and passions of such men. Additionally, it has been tentatively proven that the Bible has inconsistencies---but how would we determine errors? We would need to have a "truth" to compare them with.This brings up the worldviews concerning truth--what truth is and isnt.

Is truth alive? Jesus once told Pilate that He represented the definition of truth.

Then Pilate said to him, So you are a king? Jesus answered, You say that I am a king. For this purpose I was born and for this purpose I have come into the worldto bear witness to the truth. Everyone who is of the truth listens to my voice.

In the context of spirituality, is truth eternal? Unchanging? Orthodox? Or does truth come from the ever evolving minds of men?

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Have any teachings been found which supercede the teachings that humans glean from Bible Studies? Can anyone present evidence of such newer teachings so that we may discuss them?

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Words are "a sound or combination of sounds that has a meaning and is spoken or written". Did words exist before humans evolved enough to utter them? Where did these words come from?

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Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

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Saying, "I don't know," is the same as saying, "Maybe."~ZombieRingo
It's easy to see the speck in somebody else's ideas - unless it's blocked by the beam in your own.~Ringo
If a savage stops believing in his wooden god, it does not mean that there is no God only that God is not wooden.(Leo Tolstoy)

OK. If I understand you correctly, we are going with what the "Bible" actually says...correct?If so, we cannot simply go with three Gospels and ignore the fourth. Who is "He"? Why is this "living Word" the One and Only? Sounds a bit like your Nicene Creed. Why don't people know Him? Why are we comfortable saying He is only human? Why is it that when the bible says what we want it to say we emphasize what the books actually say yet when the Bible does not say what we are comfortable with we cry "redactors"!Why is it that we smugly analyse the books from our armchairs and talk blithely of a "god character" when we also claim to believe in GOD, Creator of all seen and unseen? Why is it that we prefer to believe that God is eternally unknowable? Feel free to elaborate on what you think the book actually means. Nevermind what it says. What possible motive could the author have had in adding new information to the tradition?Why was Jesus thought by some to be a failed Messiah? The same way we can impeach a president. the people obviously thought they knew more about reality than did the prophet.The same attitude continues today.....

I have observed the conversation with some interest. There were 12 disciples until Judas died...for a season there were 11, and then more were again selected. Truthfully, though---I wont waste my time trying to defend the Good Book.(Books?) We must ask ourselves what specifically and precisely what we are trying to prove. Are we trying to prove something because we believe it is our duty and calling? Do we simply enjoy the verbal joust? Personally I worry little about defending God. I agree with Faith that many of us will be amazed some day as to the actual reality behind these ancient beliefs.I don't wish to gleefully watch my opponents burn, however. Additionally, though I believe that I share my heart, mind, and belief worldview here at EvC, I don't feel it is my duty to try and convert everyone.