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Author Topic:   Is the Bible the inerrant word of God? Or is it the words of men?
ringo
Member (Idle past 430 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 1078 of 2241 (745972)
12-30-2014 12:28 PM
Reply to: Message 1077 by Golffly
12-30-2014 12:18 PM


Re: what is scripture?
Golffly writes:
Did ugly people write errant stuff and claim it's inspired by god, then form religions around the errancy?. Then ya, I have a problem with that.
Why?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1077 by Golffly, posted 12-30-2014 12:18 PM Golffly has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1079 by Golffly, posted 12-30-2014 12:39 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 430 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 1102 of 2241 (746022)
12-31-2014 10:38 AM
Reply to: Message 1079 by Golffly
12-30-2014 12:39 PM


Re: what is scripture?
Golffly writes:
You say this:
On the other hand, internal inconsistencies, if any, could suggest that it is not authentic
Then follow it up with suggestion that I'm now trying to hard to find unimpressive inconsistencies.
The question is, why is the authenticity important to you?
I know Treasure Island isn't authentic - i.e. the characters never existed, the events never happened - but it's still one of my favorite books. Would it have more value to me if it was "authentic"? No.
So why do you care about the authenticity of the Bible?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1079 by Golffly, posted 12-30-2014 12:39 PM Golffly has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1107 by Golffly, posted 12-31-2014 3:22 PM ringo has replied
 Message 1113 by Phat, posted 01-01-2015 7:36 AM ringo has seen this message but not replied
 Message 1114 by Phat, posted 01-01-2015 7:38 AM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 430 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 1136 of 2241 (746094)
01-02-2015 11:07 AM
Reply to: Message 1107 by Golffly
12-31-2014 3:22 PM


Re: what is scripture?
Golffly writes:
The bible is not authentic.
Why can't it be authentic fiction?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1107 by Golffly, posted 12-31-2014 3:22 PM Golffly has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1142 by Golffly, posted 01-02-2015 3:38 PM ringo has seen this message but not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 430 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 1137 of 2241 (746095)
01-02-2015 11:16 AM
Reply to: Message 1114 by Phat
01-01-2015 7:38 AM


Re: Authenticity
Phat writes:
What if we found it was really written by an obscure ghost writer? Would that revelation not impact us?
No.
Only the looniest of Bible literalists believe that Moses really wrote Genesis. Do we throw out the stories of the Garden of Eden, the Tower of Babel, the Flood and the partriarchs because we know Moses wasn't there to witness them? Of course not.
Phat writes:
How would it change the romantic wistful appeal of such a book if it were revealed that the true author was an obscure person from anywhere known by no one and having no other credentials nor reputable works aside from that one?
It wouldn't change anything. Stevenson is famous because of Treasure Island, not vice versa.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1114 by Phat, posted 01-01-2015 7:38 AM Phat has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 430 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(1)
Message 1191 of 2241 (746289)
01-05-2015 11:10 AM
Reply to: Message 1190 by Golffly
01-05-2015 11:00 AM


Re: what is scripture?
Golffly writes:
The bible says god did it.
The writer[s] of that particular story said that (they believed that) God did it. There's no God character in the story claiming to do it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1190 by Golffly, posted 01-05-2015 11:00 AM Golffly has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1192 by Golffly, posted 01-05-2015 11:23 AM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 430 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 1193 of 2241 (746295)
01-05-2015 11:35 AM
Reply to: Message 1192 by Golffly
01-05-2015 11:23 AM


Re: what is scripture?
Golffly writes:
If the point is the writer is superstitious and made an error thinking god did it.. I agree, he's very superstitious and unreliable.
That isn't quite what I said. Let me try again, with emphasis: The writer(s) of that particular story SAID that they believed that God did it. Maybe they really believed it; maybe they were just making a point. There's no good reason to conclude superstition or unreliability.
Golffly writes:
If the point is two bears can naturally maul 42 kids.. then that is the only time in recorded history.
Lots of things only happened once. Lots of things that may nave happened more than once were no recorded at all.
Golffly writes:
The point, that I can't seem to make here, is either god is a nut or the writer is writing myth. I submit the later is likely.
That 'point' is a Duh! I don't know why you would even mention it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1192 by Golffly, posted 01-05-2015 11:23 AM Golffly has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1194 by Golffly, posted 01-05-2015 11:51 AM ringo has replied
 Message 1195 by Golffly, posted 01-05-2015 11:55 AM ringo has replied
 Message 1197 by Percy, posted 01-05-2015 12:05 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 430 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(2)
Message 1198 of 2241 (746305)
01-05-2015 12:17 PM
Reply to: Message 1194 by Golffly
01-05-2015 11:51 AM


Re: what is scripture?
Golffly writes:
What difference does it make if the writer "thinks" god did it or god "claims" to have done it?
What difference does it make if Stevenson thinks Jim Hawkins did it or Jim Hawkins claims to have done it? Did Stevenson have to believe that Jim Hawkins really existed? Would it make any difference to the story?
Golffly writes:
I am suggesting he isn't offering truthful statements.
"Truth" is not a particularly useful concept here. It's possible for fictional characters to make "true" statements. Fiction can portray "truth".
Golffly writes:
If we want to suggest rules were different for animals 2000 plus years ago, that needs some evidence.
You have only a lack of evidence for your so-called "rules". if you want to claim that it's impossible for the bear story to be literally true, you'll need positive evidence.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1194 by Golffly, posted 01-05-2015 11:51 AM Golffly has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1202 by Golffly, posted 01-05-2015 12:46 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 430 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 1199 of 2241 (746307)
01-05-2015 12:22 PM
Reply to: Message 1197 by Percy
01-05-2015 12:05 PM


Re: what is scripture?
Percy writes:
It seems as if you might be implying that belief in some things like leprechauns or voodoo can rightly considered superstitions, but that belief in other things like gods or God cannot be considered superstitions. Am I correct in interpreting it this way?
No, I'm just saying that talking about leprechauns or voodoo or gods in a story doesn't necessarily indicate superstition. The bear story makes a point (which some people might call karma). The authors most likely did believe in God but that belief is not necessary to the story. In the story, the God character is just the "messenger of karma".

This message is a reply to:
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ringo
Member (Idle past 430 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 1201 of 2241 (746311)
01-05-2015 12:31 PM
Reply to: Message 1195 by Golffly
01-05-2015 11:55 AM


Re: what is scripture?
Golffly writes:
I need to mention it because no nukes is certainly not wanting to say it's myth. Nor will be say the god depicted is nuts.
We already knew that some people don't believe it's a myth and that some people don't believe God is nuts. Your interpretation of the stories isn't the only possible interpretation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1195 by Golffly, posted 01-05-2015 11:55 AM Golffly has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1203 by NoNukes, posted 01-05-2015 12:47 PM ringo has seen this message but not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 430 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 1222 of 2241 (746389)
01-06-2015 10:46 AM
Reply to: Message 1202 by Golffly
01-05-2015 12:46 PM


Re: what is scripture?
Golffly writes:
There is a point where rational has to factor in.
Rational and logical thought don't require us to nit-pick every detail. Forty-two is not an entirely implausible number; rejecting it out of hand is pretty silly. I hope that isn't a prime example of your "rational and logical" thought.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1202 by Golffly, posted 01-05-2015 12:46 PM Golffly has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1223 by Golffly, posted 01-06-2015 1:35 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 430 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(1)
Message 1253 of 2241 (746486)
01-07-2015 11:04 AM
Reply to: Message 1223 by Golffly
01-06-2015 1:35 PM


Re: what is scripture?
Golffly writes:
What is the purported biblical justice for this minor thing.
Who said it was about "justice"? Justice varies from jurisdiction to jurisdiction and from time to time.
It's about consequences. There are always consequences, whether just or not.
Golffly writes:
Because if somebody does believe they happened, then they need a lot of explaining as to why.
They don't need to explain it to your satisfaction, only their own.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1223 by Golffly, posted 01-06-2015 1:35 PM Golffly has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 430 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 1258 of 2241 (746502)
01-07-2015 12:28 PM
Reply to: Message 1255 by Faith
01-07-2015 11:39 AM


Re: Reality and the Bible
Faith writes:
... when you know it's God's own communication to us then you know that it is a revelation of reality itself.
But since it isn't a revelation of reality - or even a good facsimile - we know it's not the word of God. It's the word of men claiming to speak for God, but men who didn't have a very good understanding of reality. And people who don't have a good understanding of reality mistake it for "real". You demonstrate that every time you touch your keyboard.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1255 by Faith, posted 01-07-2015 11:39 AM Faith has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 430 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 1359 of 2241 (746861)
01-10-2015 11:13 AM
Reply to: Message 1358 by Faith
01-10-2015 11:09 AM


Re: Reality and the Bible
Faith writes:
Why can't you people read?
When nobody can read what you write, maybe it's the writing that needs improvement.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1358 by Faith, posted 01-10-2015 11:09 AM Faith has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 430 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 1362 of 2241 (746866)
01-10-2015 11:21 AM
Reply to: Message 1361 by Golffly
01-10-2015 11:16 AM


Re: Reality and the Bible
Golffly writes:
Do they all require the special magical read, and how did you get qualified to be able to do that?
You need a secret decoder ring.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1361 by Golffly, posted 01-10-2015 11:16 AM Golffly has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 430 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 1365 of 2241 (746875)
01-10-2015 12:14 PM
Reply to: Message 1364 by GDR
01-10-2015 12:07 PM


Re: what is scripture?
GDR writes:
I also have yet to find a version of the explanation for the rise of the early church that IMHO is reasonable, whereas an historical resurrection easily explains it.
Belief in the resurrection explains the rise of the early church, just like belief in other things explains the rise of other churches. Belief in X does not necessarily correlate with reality of X.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1364 by GDR, posted 01-10-2015 12:07 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1367 by GDR, posted 01-10-2015 12:38 PM ringo has seen this message but not replied

  
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