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Author Topic:   Is the Bible the inerrant word of God? Or is it the words of men?
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 799 of 2241 (744065)
12-07-2014 10:09 PM
Reply to: Message 798 by jar
12-07-2014 9:49 PM


Re: Knowing God
jar writes:
So you are saying that Jesus was just a conman, a carny snakeoil salesman just using common beliefs to make folk think he was a Messiah?
Read what I wrote. Frankly jar you often seem more interested in being confrontational than you are in having a reasonable discussion.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 798 by jar, posted 12-07-2014 9:49 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 800 by jar, posted 12-07-2014 10:16 PM GDR has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


(1)
Message 802 of 2241 (744073)
12-08-2014 1:57 AM
Reply to: Message 800 by jar
12-07-2014 10:16 PM


Re: Knowing God
jar writes:
I even quoted what you wrote. Why do you continue to make Jesus look like a crook and God like a fool?
What would you call someone who knowing what was written in scripture tried to manufacture the conditions predicted? "Hey John, go get me an ass for tomorrows entrance scene?"
Did you not say " I'd suggest that He saw Himself called to fulfil the prophesies such as the suffering servant is Isaiah, Son of Man in Daniel as well as the prophesies in Jeremiah. "?
Did you not say "I'd suggest that the man Jesus, along with His cousin John the Baptist went about consciously fulfilling the prophesies that were consistent with the vocation that He on faith believed He was called to. The most obvious one would be riding into Jerusalem on a donkey as foretold in Jeremiah."?
How else could that behavior be described other than as a con job and Medicine Show sales?
A con man is a con man does what he does for personal gain. What I am suggesting is that Jesus sincerely believed that He was called by God to do what He was doing. He was called IMHO to a specific vocation which was to be Israel's messiah but also to embody Yahweh's return to His people. That is not a con.
Fulfilling the prophecies was to call people's attention to His message. Why else quote Psalm 22 while on the cross? Even to death He remained faithful to His calling and God vindicated that call by resurrecting Him. However, without the resurrection then Jesus' life and message is a sham and your assessment is right to the point that it was a con even though a well intentioned one.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 800 by jar, posted 12-07-2014 10:16 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 806 by jar, posted 12-08-2014 8:51 AM GDR has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


(1)
Message 803 of 2241 (744074)
12-08-2014 2:17 AM
Reply to: Message 801 by Faith
12-07-2014 11:08 PM


Re: Knowing God
I'll reply to your post in general but this last statement requires a specific response.
Faith writes:
So I guess you're saying Jesus' interpretation of these things pleased the Father and that's why He favored Him and raised Him from the dead? But with your idea of the Father as a sadistic genocidal maniac why would you expect Him to favor Jesus' nonmilitaristic interpretations?
Faith it is you that pints the Father that way. It is you that insists that Yahweh was in favour of ordering genocide, public stonings etc. My view is that when we read the OT through the lens of the Gospels and through Jesus the incarnate Word and wisdom of God that we get a true picture of His nature.
Just using the two examples. Jesus riding into Jerusalem on a donkey. Are you suggesting that He wouldn't have been familiar with the book of Jeremiah. Of course He knew what message that was sending. Do you think that when He asked on the cross, "My God why have You Forsaken Me", that he wasn't familiar with Psalm 22?
Why do you think that Jesus prayed to the Father in Gethsemane to not have to go through with what He knew would happen by doing what He was going to do when he entered Jerusalem. He went in there as an act of faith that this was what He was called to do, and that somehow God was going to vindicate Him.
If Jesus supernaturally knew without question that he would be resurrected in the manner that He was then it changes the whole nature of what He did. It also makes no sense of His Gethsemane prayer. Look at all of those who have sacrificed their lives for the sake of God's message of love and who did on the faith that they were doing the right thing without any certainty of what would happen to them the other side of death.
IMHO your understanding of Jesus belittles what He did on the cross.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 801 by Faith, posted 12-07-2014 11:08 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 805 by Faith, posted 12-08-2014 5:57 AM GDR has replied
 Message 815 by Faith, posted 12-08-2014 2:49 PM GDR has not replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


(1)
Message 809 of 2241 (744126)
12-08-2014 11:33 AM
Reply to: Message 805 by Faith
12-08-2014 5:57 AM


Re: Knowing God
Faith writes:
GDR, this is a lie whether you know it or not. You have consistently made this accusation OF THE SCRIPTURE ITSELF without my having said a word. YOU read the scripture as presenting such a view of God, this is not based on anything I have said, except that I believe the whole scripture is the word of God and do NOT have the same view of it you have.
This is all YOUR view, leave me out of it.
Take that back.
When the Bible tells us that Yahweh commanded the Israelits to slaughter the Canaanites, or that they were to stone to death some guy for picking up firewood on the Sabbath is it accurate?
I'm saying that Yahweh did not command that and that either they got it wrong or it suited their own purposes and probably the latter.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 805 by Faith, posted 12-08-2014 5:57 AM Faith has not replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 810 of 2241 (744127)
12-08-2014 11:43 AM
Reply to: Message 806 by jar
12-08-2014 8:51 AM


Re: Knowing God
jar writes:
How is it not a con?
You are saying that he and John deliberately set out to make people think he was some kind of messiah. Whether he believed he was a messiah or not is hardly relevant when what is being discussed is the behavior; trying to manufacture evidence to convince folk.
A scientist that manufactures evidence to support his position is called fired regardless of whether or not the position is valid.
It isn't about manufacturing evidence. It is about making a statement. By riding into Jerusalem on a donkey Jesus was making a messianic statement. That along with Him making statements such as that He can forgive sins etc would indicate that He was delusional and the only reason to believe otherwise is that God vindicated Jesus' belief in the vocation that Jesus believed He was called to.
jar writes:
And as I have pointed out Jesus resurrection and even Jesus death were not unique either in the Bible or throughout religious mythos. Even Jesus ascension is not a unique event in the Biblical stories.
There are resurrection mythologies of mythical gods etc but so what? Jesus was resurrected or He wasn't. The truth of the Christian faith and the validation of Christ's message is dependant of a positive answer to that question.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 806 by jar, posted 12-08-2014 8:51 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 811 by jar, posted 12-08-2014 11:52 AM GDR has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 812 of 2241 (744134)
12-08-2014 12:19 PM
Reply to: Message 811 by jar
12-08-2014 11:52 AM


Re: Knowing God
jar writes:
And as long as we are alive we can never answer that question so is it even important?
Of course. It is a matter of faith or belief. It is the Christian faith not Christian absolute knowledge.
jar writes:
Of course it is manufacturing evidence.
Anybody can ride a donkey into Jerusalem. It doesn't prove anything. You used the example of a scientist. It is no different than a scientist making a claim in a scientific journal about some new theory he/she believes in. Jesus was laying claim to His theory that He was the Messiah.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 811 by jar, posted 12-08-2014 11:52 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 813 by jar, posted 12-08-2014 2:31 PM GDR has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 814 of 2241 (744149)
12-08-2014 2:43 PM
Reply to: Message 813 by jar
12-08-2014 2:31 PM


Re: Knowing God
It isn't evidence it is a claim. I have never claimed otherwise. It was a statement about what He believed He was called to do. He was saying "I am the Messiah".

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 813 by jar, posted 12-08-2014 2:31 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 816 by jar, posted 12-08-2014 2:56 PM GDR has not replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


(1)
Message 875 of 2241 (745368)
12-22-2014 10:42 AM
Reply to: Message 873 by Golffly
12-22-2014 10:03 AM


Re: Even the word of God was essentially the words of men
Golffly writes:
- We know from many passages in the Gospel that Jesus says he is going to return within the lifetime of the listeners, within this generation (40 years), before the apostles are dead. (Mark 13:30, 9:1 Luke 9:27, 21:32, Matt 16:28). While the apostles were still alive and a generation had not passed, it was possible to maintain a sense of immediacy. The world is going to end soon. Here the writer is back pedaling, the world hasn't ended and maybe it won't for a long time he says. He's trying to rebut the "scoffers" who see the generation has passed and nothing has happened. If Peter were still alive he would claim look Jesus said before the apostles die, before this generation has passed, we still have time. That is not what he says though, he doesn't use that excuse, he is using a thousands of year excuse now.
This is a complete misreading of these passages. They are part of Jesus' political message in arguing against the militant revolutionaries. It is typical Jewish apocalyptic writing describing political events. He is saying that within a generation that there will be a military revolution and that that the Romans will do what they always do and they will be crushed.
This of course did happen in 70 AD.
I'm also not saying that Jesus' knew this specifically supernaturally. There was a strong sentiment amongst first century Jews to drive the Romans out of the country. They were looking for a messiah sent by God to lead them in this quest and some thought that Jesus would be the one. Jesus however said that if you go this route it will be ruinous for the Jewish people - which it was. He was saying that the Romans will do what they always do - which they did.
It wasn't however strictly political but also theological as He is saying that the way you deal with the Romans is through the weapons that Paul writes about in Ephesians 6.
quote:
10 Finally, be strong in the Lord and in his mighty power. 11 Put on the full armor of God so that you can take your stand against the devil's schemes. 12 For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms. 13 Therefore put on the full armor of God, so that when the day of evil comes, you may be able to stand your ground, and after you have done everything, to stand. 14 Stand firm then, with the belt of truth buckled around your waist, with the breastplate of righteousness in place, 15 and with your feet fitted with the readiness that comes from the gospel of peace. 16 In addition to all this, take up the shield of faith, with which you can extinguish all the flaming arrows of the evil one. 17 Take the helmet of salvation and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God. 18 And pray in the Spirit on all occasions with all kinds of prayers and requests. With this in mind, be alert and always keep on praying for all the saints.
It is all part of Jesus' message to love your enemy, turn the other cheek, go the extra mile etc.
I agree that the early disciples believed that the end of time was imminent, but that was just human nature. They had recent memories of Jesus and so that they believed that the climax of all human history would happen soon. I don't agree though that this belief came from what we read in the Gospels.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 873 by Golffly, posted 12-22-2014 10:03 AM Golffly has not replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 886 of 2241 (745409)
12-22-2014 3:36 PM
Reply to: Message 884 by Golffly
12-22-2014 1:52 PM


Re: what is scripture?
It is also quite possible and even likely that he compiled a book from what had been passed down, either in written or oral form, from Peter himself so the writer simply attributed the book's authorship to Peter.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 884 by Golffly, posted 12-22-2014 1:52 PM Golffly has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 889 by Golffly, posted 12-22-2014 8:32 PM GDR has not replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 898 of 2241 (745492)
12-23-2014 12:03 PM
Reply to: Message 895 by Golffly
12-23-2014 11:48 AM


Re: what is scripture?
Golffly writes:
As opposed to the deceit, where the reader has no good reason to assume, or no way to find out, the writer is not the famous person he pretends to be.
But you have presented no evidence to show that this is the case, nor have you shown that there would be any motive for doing what you suggest in the case of 1 Peter or any of the other epistles.
Luke starts off his gospel by telling that he got the material from other sources whereas the other gospel writers didn't do that, although it is obvious that their material would have to come from others through what others wrote or through what had been passed down orally.
IMHO by far the most likely answer is that the writer has compiled a collection of what had been passed down from what Peter said and did and put them into one book or letter.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 895 by Golffly, posted 12-23-2014 11:48 AM Golffly has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 904 by Golffly, posted 12-23-2014 2:09 PM GDR has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 906 of 2241 (745516)
12-23-2014 3:29 PM
Reply to: Message 904 by Golffly
12-23-2014 2:09 PM


Re: what is scripture?
Golffly writes:
I think I did present evidence. I think it's safe to say I didn't garner a fan club of young groupies because of the evidence presented. Say it's border line and questionable. I got that much out of this.
Good humble answer. Are you sure you're not a Christian?

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 904 by Golffly, posted 12-23-2014 2:09 PM Golffly has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 907 by Golffly, posted 12-23-2014 8:42 PM GDR has not replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 936 of 2241 (745617)
12-24-2014 11:39 PM
Reply to: Message 935 by Golffly
12-24-2014 11:15 PM


Re: what is scripture?
Golffly writes:
John 21:24King James Version (KJV)
24 This is the disciple which testifieth of these things, and wrote these things: and we know that his testimony is true.
Those that still believe disciple John wrote the book and was an eye witness, site this passage.
Sometime in 1800's some scholars questioned authorship. But I would suspect most Christians, by a long shot, still believe apostle John is the writer.
But you didn't finish the verse. Here is the whole verse.
quote:
24 This is the disciple who testifies to these things and who wrote them down. We know that HIS testimony is true.
The writer isn't claiming to be John. His claim is that he has taken what John had written earlier and formed one cohesive account of what John had testified to.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 935 by Golffly, posted 12-24-2014 11:15 PM Golffly has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 939 by Golffly, posted 12-25-2014 10:27 AM GDR has not replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 949 of 2241 (745663)
12-25-2014 4:23 PM
Reply to: Message 944 by Tangle
12-25-2014 1:15 PM


Re: what is scripture?
Tangle writes:
Sure, just speculating. However, I shared a flat at uni with a girl who was studying theology, she was astounded to be told that none of the lecturers believed in the virgin birth but were quite happy to preach it from their pulpits. They had one set of beliefs for themselves based on the historicity of the bible and another that they thought the laity could cope with. It sounded like a conspiracy to me. The kind of stuff that parents do with young children - except the church does it with adults.
I'm very much a part of the unwashed laity. Personally I accept the story of the virgin birth but at the same time I know that it does read like a legend. It isn't in all of the Gospels and it isn't in the Epistles so I accept that it could have been written as a metaphor for how they understood the life and times of Jesus.
In parables such as "The Prodigal Son" it doesn't start out saying that this is a parable. We just know that it is. Let's assume that the story of the nativity is a legend. Just as we can find levels of relevance in the parables as told by Jesus we can find levels of meaning in the nativity narrative that are relevant to our lives today. It is a story of humble beginnings, it's a story of regardless of the humble beginnings He was still worshipped by earthly Kings, it's a story where this humble being was infused with wisdom and truth through God's Holy Spirit, it's a story where the first worshippers were simple shepherds etc. In fact the whole nativity narrative reflects Jesus' entire ministry.
So yes, if I were a preacher preaching on the nativity and/or the virgin birth, I would preach it as an historical event, even though I accept that it might not be historically true. However, even if it isn't historical it is still the truth as would be understood by the author. I would do this in the same manner as I would as if I were preaching on the Prodigal Son.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 944 by Tangle, posted 12-25-2014 1:15 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 950 by Tangle, posted 12-25-2014 5:49 PM GDR has replied
 Message 951 by NoNukes, posted 12-25-2014 7:06 PM GDR has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 964 of 2241 (745702)
12-26-2014 9:33 AM
Reply to: Message 950 by Tangle
12-25-2014 5:49 PM


Re: what is scripture?
Tangle writes:
Yes that's how the myth continue. Just like Santa Clause - the adults don't believe it but they make sure their children do.
I did not say I don't believe it. I do. I accept it as true but I also added that like a lot of things we believe I can't know it to be true. Yes, it does read like something of a legend but that doesn't tell us one way or another whether or about whether or not it is historical.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 950 by Tangle, posted 12-25-2014 5:49 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 966 by Tangle, posted 12-26-2014 10:22 AM GDR has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 965 of 2241 (745704)
12-26-2014 9:45 AM
Reply to: Message 951 by NoNukes
12-25-2014 7:06 PM


Re: what is scripture?
Tangle writes:
I find myself agreeing with Tangle's opinion of what you are doing here. Your personal understanding is that the Prodigal Son is a parable while the virgin birth is accurate though you admit to some doubts about the latter.
So what would justify preaching similarly on the two stories? I find that admission outright bizarre. I understand how you feel the way you do about the two stories. No problem with that. Have you ever found yourself presenting or preaching on the virgin birth?
No I have often filled in when the rector/minister/pastor was away so I have actually given sermons, (hopefully I didn't preach ) but not on the virgin birth.
I probably went too far in comparing the nativity narrative to the parables. However as I explained earlier that you can draw parallels between the nativity story and the Christian message just as you can with the parables.
To take a simple example we can look at the father in the story of the Prodigal Son and see a forgiving father and so we can then see in that parable a forgiving God. We can look at the nativity story and see Jesus being born in very humble circumstances and we can see a God that reaches out to those that live their lives in very humble circumstances.
Edited by GDR, : typos etc

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 951 by NoNukes, posted 12-25-2014 7:06 PM NoNukes has seen this message but not replied

  
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