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Author Topic:   Fountains of the deep, new evidence
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 6653
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 16 of 106 (699445)
05-19-2013 11:38 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by Coyote
05-19-2013 11:05 PM


Re: Basic thermodynamics
On another website a creationist went to great lengths to explain why the law of "thermal documents" was wrong.

So is this esplaining whats causing the globel worming? I mean thermal means heat right? If so someone outta stop them before its to late. How do these creationists get this stuff, anyhow? Can we cut off there supply?

Edited by AZPaul3, : cus


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Colbard
Member (Idle past 2631 days)
Posts: 300
From: Australia
Joined: 08-31-2014


Message 17 of 106 (736193)
09-04-2014 10:52 PM


Water in the earth
During the flood many parts of the crust were turned over and mixed with water, trapping water underneath, and the layers of sediment that were deposited over that year made up what we live on. The old world also had reserves of water under the land so that the world stood in the water and out of it. 2 Peter 3:5 KJV.

The fountains of the deep happened when water was forced up through weaknesses in the land. In some places the ground became soft like mud, in other places jets of water sometimes the width of a stadium caused the land to be thrown up hundreds of meters, like from a volcano.

The earth during the flood became heated from the crustal movements and changes in pressure, causing water trapped beneath to turn into steam. There were thousands of explosions under the water during the flood, some of the craters formed towards the end of the flood survived burial and erosion, and remain on the earth today, sometimes recognized, but many lie under forests, snow, sand and sea etc.

These craters lack any evidence of a meteor, but have seams of iron formed by this kind of explosion.

It is taken for granted that the earth today is filled with molten lava and that when this surfaces we have volcanic explosions.
But this is not the case. There are burning layers of lava here and there under the earth, but the molten earth interior is a theory based on its behavior. It only behaves like it is molten with a crust etc. A volcanic explosion is caused by the same mechanisms that occurred during the flood, when water and lava came into contact.

While at the moment we have volcanoes in predictable areas, any area in the earth, particularly coastal areas are subject to sudden explosions, plunging whole cities into lava.


Replies to this message:
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NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 18 of 106 (736194)
09-04-2014 11:19 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by Colbard
09-04-2014 10:52 PM


Re: Water in the earth
It only behaves like it is molten with a crust etc. A volcanic explosion is caused by the same mechanisms that occurred during the flood, when water and lava came into contact.

Wow. A uniformatimistic theory of the geology from a creationist.

Perhaps the less said about this hypothesis of yours, the better. But what is your evidence that volcanoes are not produced by magma flowing up to a surface in the earth's crust.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
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Colbard
Member (Idle past 2631 days)
Posts: 300
From: Australia
Joined: 08-31-2014


Message 19 of 106 (736196)
09-04-2014 11:37 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by NoNukes
09-04-2014 11:19 PM


Re: Water in the earth
"...the less said about this hypothesis...the better"

These are your words, I'll go by them.


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Coyote
Member (Idle past 1346 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 20 of 106 (736198)
09-05-2014 12:14 AM
Reply to: Message 17 by Colbard
09-04-2014 10:52 PM


Re: Water in the earth
Don't you realize yet that the bible is an ancient mythical tale and has no necessary relation to the real world?

In terms of accuracy, you might as well study the old Coyote Man tales of the American Indians.

At least they can be very entertaining:

The Creation of Men and Women

When the world was finished, there were as yet no people, but the Bald Eagle was chief of the animals. He saw that the world was incomplete and decided to make some human beings. So he took some clay and modeled the figure of a man and laid him on the ground. At first he was very small but he grew rapidly until he reached normal size. But as yet he had no life; he was still asleep. Then the Bald Eagle stood and admired his work. "It is impossible," he said, "that he should be left alone; he must have a mate." So he pulled out a feather and laid it beside the sleeping man. Then he left them and went off a short distance, for he knew that a woman was being formed from the feather. But the man was still asleep and did not know what was happening. When the Bald Eagle decided that the woman was about completed, he returned, awoke the man by flapping his wings over him and flew away.

The man opened his eyes and stared at the woman. "What does this mean?" he asked. "I thought I was alone!" Then the Bald Eagle returned and said with a smile, "I see you have a mate! Have you had intercourse with her?" "No," replied he man, for he and the woman knew nothing about each other. Then the Bald Eagle called to Coyote who happened to be going by and said to him, "Do you see that woman? Try her first!" Coyote was quite willing and complied, but immediately afterwards lay down and died. The Bald Eagle went away and left Coyote dead, but presently returned and revived him. "How did it work?" said the Bald Eagle. "Pretty well, but it nearly kills a man!" replied Coyote. "Will you try it again?" said the Bald Eagle. Coyote agreed, and tried again, and this time survived. Then the Bald Eagle turned to the man and said, "She is all right now; you and she are to live together.
California Indian creation story

Most of these tales have the same historical accuracy as most of the biblical origin stories, i.e., none.


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Colbard
Member (Idle past 2631 days)
Posts: 300
From: Australia
Joined: 08-31-2014


Message 21 of 106 (736199)
09-05-2014 1:00 AM
Reply to: Message 20 by Coyote
09-05-2014 12:14 AM


Re: Water in the earth
I believe that you are being honest when you can't even see the evidence in the creation story you posted.

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dwise1
Member
Posts: 5076
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 22 of 106 (736202)
09-05-2014 2:41 AM
Reply to: Message 21 by Colbard
09-05-2014 1:00 AM


Re: Water in the earth
OK, I confess that I'm still pumped up by Bill Moyers' PBS interviews with Joseph Campbell about mythology.

Most people treat the term "myth" much the same wrong way that they treat the term "theory". To most people, "myth" means some fanciful story that is completely false. Instead (trying to channel Campbell here, which is made even bizaare by being attempted by a member of the Clan Donald, arch-enemies of the Campbells), myths are fundamentally important stories that more than true. But in myths, it is the fundamental themes of the story that are of ultimate importance, while the details are unimportant. It's like what our Rabbinic Literature prof, an old-school rabbi, taught us about haggadah, teachings that use stories. He likened them to jokes. The punch line (or the lesson to be delivered) is always the same, but the build-up to that punch-line can vary very greatly. For example, I'm sure (though I have never seen one yet, so please promise me that you will not start that trend) that there are stories circulating around about some kid who saves a man from drowning and he turns out to be the President, Barack Obama, whereupon the man saved from drowning promises anything the kid wants, whereupon he only asks that his father never ever learns of what he had just done. That same story has circulated around for many decades, with versions being attributed to saving Hitler or saving FDR -- please consult snopes.com for more information. The build-up can vary greatly and is mostly unimportant in its details; it's only the punch-line that actually matters.

Look at all those creation myths. They all vary greatly in the details of the story, but are those details really that important? Christian fundamentalists think they are, but then they are so very wrong about everything else, so why should we expect anything different? Instead, what is really important is the theme that we are important in some manner. And that there is a reason for why things are the way that they are.

So my point is that, if you are looking past the details of the particular myth and are looking at what the myth is teaching, then you are on the right path. But if you are getting hung up on the details of the story, then you are hopelessly lost. While I was in USAF tech school, a fellow student was taking flying lessons. During one flight, he was concentrating so much on the instruments that his instructor had to tell him to pull his head out of the cockpit. Similarly, in naval navigation (I followed my six active duty USAF years with 29 years in the Navy Reserve) you use dead reckoning to predict where you should be, but then (as per my Quartermaster course) you periodically poke your head out to see where you really are by getting an actual fix.

On my Palm Pilot I have a Carl Sagan quote about the difference between physics and metaphysics, but I cannot access that on my system right now. The idea is that in both systems you have a promising idea and you pursue that idea. In physics, you submit that promising idea to testing in the lab and find that it turns out to be wrong, whereupon you drop that idea as being wrong. The only difference is that metaphysics has no laboratory in which to test its ideas. I would say that theology shares that same lacking that metaphysics has.

The inherent strength of the scientific method and all disciplines that employ the scientific method is that they are not only able to pull their head out of the cockpit and actually verify where they are, but that that kind of verification is fully expected of them. The inherent weakness of theologies and other similar endeavors is that they are not allowed to pull their heads out of the cockpit and that they are very actively discouraged from doing so.

Now, regarding creation myths, there was an article in the Creation/Evolution journal that examined the creation myths of the Mandan American Indian tribes over time. Now, 19th Century culture in Europe was fueled by the Romantic movement which got into all kinds of strange stuff like the supernatural, the macabre, and nationalism. The Brothers Grimm were linguists who did very serious work, but at the same time collected many folk tales, fairy tales. The Romantic conceit was that these folk tales and traditions went back for several centuries. But in reality, those "ancient traditions" actually only went back two or three generations at most. There was a famous "uncontaminated" African tribe with "no contact from the outside world." Their mythology involved the brightest non-solar star in the sky, Sirius, the "Dog Star" (ie, the brightest star in the constellation of Canus Major, "Big Dog"). Anthropologists studying this tribe learned that their mythology mentioned that Sirius had a companion. Yes, Sirius A has a white dwarf companion, Sirius B, which wasn't discovered until modern times. How could they have ever known about that? Well, they are not perfectly isolated. When word of Sirius B filtered in, their oral tradition immediately incorporated that new information. That is the nature of oral tradition. It is fluid and incorporates new information immediately.

Here is that issue of Creation/Evolution from Summer 1993: Creation/Evolution, Summer 1993. The article is on page 20, "Creation Science and Creation Myths: An Ethnological Perspective". Share and enjoy!

Are you by any chance a believer in white supremacy? I am making no kind of judgement about you here. But here is what the Mandan believed of the white Man at one point:

quote:
Both the Lord of Life and First Man created the White Man, who possessed wampum and lived at this time on the other side of the "Great Water," and who had been conceived from the hair of floating, putrid wolves that had been tossed into the "North Ocean" (a possible reference to Hudson Bay?

The interesting thing about the Mandan (made a bit more personal to me by my having been stationed in North Dakota) is in how much their creation myths changed in such a short time. Combine that with the conceits and realities of 19th century Romanticism. Now go back to Babylon. It was during the Babylonian Exile that the efforts to commit the writing down of the Jews' oral tradition was made. In Babylon, the Jews were faced with assimilation, so they had to write everything down to oppose assimilation. And in that rush to write, how much foreign contamination made its way in? Gilgamesh anybody?

So, Colbard, what do you understand about creation myths?


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Colbard
Member (Idle past 2631 days)
Posts: 300
From: Australia
Joined: 08-31-2014


Message 23 of 106 (736204)
09-05-2014 5:47 AM
Reply to: Message 22 by dwise1
09-05-2014 2:41 AM


Re: Water in the earth
Sometimes you wonder if you are the only one who can look out of the cockpit, but then, fortunately there are others, few they be.

Myths and legends always reveal truth, in either what they are derived from, or the truth about the mentality of the adherents and or its authors.

One of the reasons that myths can become more mythical, is simply through translation and transferring the information from one generation to the next. It is amazing more detail is not lost.

There are a number of factors contributing to their distortions and loss over time.

One legend says that their ancestors - a family of eight members survived the great flood inside a fish. Sometimes you can find the missing details in the neighboring tribe.

I studied myths and legends for about 8 years as a hobby. I was quite skeptical until I found common themes world wide, regardless of location, culture or era.

In regards to a test tube for myths and metaphysics, I consider the KJV Bible the only guide. It has not been proven wrong to me yet.
So going back to the thread topic, the earth was destroyed by water, leaving water trapped in rock, sediment and underground reserves.

Edited by Colbard, : add

Edited by Colbard, : spelling


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JonF
Member
Posts: 6174
Joined: 06-23-2003


Message 24 of 106 (736205)
09-05-2014 7:51 AM
Reply to: Message 17 by Colbard
09-04-2014 10:52 PM


Re: Water in the earth
These craters lack any evidence of a meteor...

Shocked quartz. And more.

...but have seams of iron formed by this kind of explosion

References please, for the seams of iron existing and the claim that they are formed in that manner.

is taken for granted that the earth today is filled with molten lava

Nope. Essentially all of the mantle is solid (but plastic)


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jar
Member
Posts: 33909
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 25 of 106 (736212)
09-05-2014 9:39 AM
Reply to: Message 23 by Colbard
09-05-2014 5:47 AM


Re: Water in the earth
The purpose of the Authorized King James Bible was not to deal with science but rather to be politically correct. When it comes to science though it is most certainly incorrect on almost every thing. For example both of the mutually exclusive flood myths have been refuted and so it is easy to show with a degree of certainty near absolute that neither of the Biblical flood happened.

Further, even in the Biblical Flood myths there is no mention of volcanoes, mountain raising, earth turning over or any other such nonsense.

Have you ever actually read the Bible in any version?


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

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ringo
Member
Posts: 19537
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 26 of 106 (736221)
09-05-2014 12:37 PM
Reply to: Message 23 by Colbard
09-05-2014 5:47 AM


Re: Water in the earth
Colbard writes:

One legend says that their ancestors - a family of eight members survived the great flood inside a fish. Sometimes you can find the missing details in the neighboring tribe.


Numerology is usually a bad idea. Sometimes the number eight is just a coincidence.

Colbard writes:

In regards to a test tube for myths and metaphysics, I consider the KJV Bible the only guide.


And yet you feel free to mangle the KJV Bible to fit some scientific article.

Colbard writes:

It has not been proven wrong to me yet.


Treasure Island has never been proven wrong to me.

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NoNukes
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 27 of 106 (736233)
09-05-2014 4:48 PM
Reply to: Message 23 by Colbard
09-05-2014 5:47 AM


Re: Water in the earth
In regards to a test tube for myths and metaphysics, I consider the KJV Bible the only guide. It has not been proven wrong to me yet.

That is indeed praise of high magnitude. I'd put it at magnitude 35 on the stellar brightness scale.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by Colbard, posted 09-05-2014 5:47 AM Colbard has seen this message

  
Colbard
Member (Idle past 2631 days)
Posts: 300
From: Australia
Joined: 08-31-2014


Message 28 of 106 (736243)
09-05-2014 9:33 PM
Reply to: Message 24 by JonF
09-05-2014 7:51 AM


Re: Water in the earth
Ref google "iron deposits meteor crater Arizona"

In regards to the mantle, NoNukes claimed that molten lava finds its way to the surface from a molten earth interior. I did not specify any supposed layers and was simply referring to the idea of the supposed origin of the lava.


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NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 29 of 106 (736248)
09-05-2014 10:04 PM
Reply to: Message 28 by Colbard
09-05-2014 9:33 PM


Re: Water in the earth
NoNukes claimed that molten lava finds its way to the surface from a molten earth interior.

That's not what I said.

I never said that the interior of the earth was molten. I said that magma was molten. Magma is what we call molten rock when it is below the surface. I don't believe even you can dispute that magma becomes lava, but perhaps you will attempt to do just that.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 28 by Colbard, posted 09-05-2014 9:33 PM Colbard has replied

Replies to this message:
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Colbard
Member (Idle past 2631 days)
Posts: 300
From: Australia
Joined: 08-31-2014


(1)
Message 30 of 106 (736251)
09-05-2014 10:19 PM
Reply to: Message 29 by NoNukes
09-05-2014 10:04 PM


Re: Water in the earth
I apologize for misquoting you.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 29 by NoNukes, posted 09-05-2014 10:04 PM NoNukes has seen this message

  
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