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Author Topic:   the new new testament???
kofh2u
Member (Idle past 3930 days)
Posts: 1162
From: phila., PA
Joined: 04-05-2004


Message 64 of 226 (703713)
07-28-2013 11:26 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by RAZD
05-25-2013 12:49 PM


More than 75 otherwise unknown documents from the early Christ movements of the first and second centuries have been discovered in the sands of Egypt, the markets of Cairo, or in unprocessed sections of European and Near Eastern libraries in the past 150 years. As these documents have been translated and studied by scholars, it has become clear that many of them belong to the very heart of Christian beginnings. ...
That they are immaterial to the validity and primacy of the New Testament is confirmed in that what we already have had for 2000 years HAS been preached over all the world, disqualifying these johnnie come latees.
Matthew 24:14
And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations;

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kofh2u
Member (Idle past 3930 days)
Posts: 1162
From: phila., PA
Joined: 04-05-2004


Message 79 of 226 (703843)
07-30-2013 12:11 AM
Reply to: Message 65 by Dawn Bertot
07-29-2013 7:57 PM


Re: is it all interpretation/s?
Of course you see your double talk and standard here correct? When we say you can rely on the NT writers, you say we need cooroborating evidence. When we offer you Josephus, Pliny the younger and other writers that confirm some of the bigger events of jesus life, you say well we need corroborating evidence of the corroborating evidence
your purpose is not to find truth when it omes to Christianity, its to find fault at all cost, so as to alleviate any responsibility
Right.
This fellow is a fool who has no respect for the truth and believes that nothing can stand up against lies when one intends to keep stringing things out.
These kind of people will just never change their erroneous positions because they advocates of the bashing of the bible.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 65 by Dawn Bertot, posted 07-29-2013 7:57 PM Dawn Bertot has not replied

  
kofh2u
Member (Idle past 3930 days)
Posts: 1162
From: phila., PA
Joined: 04-05-2004


Message 93 of 226 (704060)
08-02-2013 7:32 PM
Reply to: Message 92 by Theodoric
08-01-2013 1:41 PM


Re: is it all interpretation/s?
Because there is fault with all of them.
Josephus we have discussed. But here we go again
The best is the two witnesses. The house of Judah and the house of Jacob.
These two "candlesticks" before the Lord were there.
They have never denied that Jesus offended them, and that jesus was in their midst.
These two witnesses, in fact, did not oppose an illusionary Jesus, not without mention in the two Talmuds, written, but long edited and under commposition, shortly after the growth of Christianity.
Nor in their midrash, either.
Certainly, if their testimony of what you say, "no real Jesus," could be heard at this late date, the cross examination would focus upon the delay of the Jews in telling us about this, true?
Why hadn't the Jews dismissed Jesus as a fabrication, a joke, an imagination, a historical invention and lie?
The BEST WITNESS to a historical Jesus is the two houses of the Jews, the House of Judah and the House if Jacob.
Is it not?
NOTE:
The Jews testified against Jesus right from the beginning until the day when Israel, itself, would suffer the crucifixion of the Holocaust as a sin offering for their denials, yet recognition and certitude of Jesus:
Rev. 11:7 And when they, (the House of Jacob and the House of Judah, the two candlestick witnesses), shall have finished their testimony (against their own suffering messiah), the (seven headed) beast (of Western civilization) that (had) ascendeth out of the bottomless pit (in The Renaissance) shall make (secular) war against them, (these Jews of the diaspora), and shall overcome them (in 1942), and kill them (with gas and starvation and brutalities).

This message is a reply to:
 Message 92 by Theodoric, posted 08-01-2013 1:41 PM Theodoric has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 94 by Theodoric, posted 08-03-2013 11:53 AM kofh2u has replied

  
kofh2u
Member (Idle past 3930 days)
Posts: 1162
From: phila., PA
Joined: 04-05-2004


(1)
Message 95 of 226 (704086)
08-03-2013 2:12 PM
Reply to: Message 94 by Theodoric
08-03-2013 11:53 AM


Re: is it all interpretation/s?
Teach,... not preach.
(Preaching will begin when Christians repeat this lesson to you, that the Jews are the best witnesses of a Jesus, who they both condemned throughout history and yet recognized at the same time.
The best is the two witnesses.
The house of Judah and the house of Jacob.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 94 by Theodoric, posted 08-03-2013 11:53 AM Theodoric has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 96 by Theodoric, posted 08-03-2013 2:26 PM kofh2u has replied

  
kofh2u
Member (Idle past 3930 days)
Posts: 1162
From: phila., PA
Joined: 04-05-2004


(1)
Message 97 of 226 (704104)
08-03-2013 9:39 PM
Reply to: Message 96 by Theodoric
08-03-2013 2:26 PM


Re: is it all interpretation/s?
No. It is preaching.
You are not imparting knowledge. You are advocating what you feel is truth.
Do you have have anything relevant to my post that you responded to?
Of course what the Jews have said since 32AD is relevant to your post that demands some non-Christian written evidence of a Jesus.
(Are you sure that your ego isn't bruised in that this clearly shows you have been dead wrong all along??????)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 96 by Theodoric, posted 08-03-2013 2:26 PM Theodoric has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 98 by Theodoric, posted 08-03-2013 11:09 PM kofh2u has replied

  
kofh2u
Member (Idle past 3930 days)
Posts: 1162
From: phila., PA
Joined: 04-05-2004


Message 104 of 226 (704246)
08-06-2013 8:49 PM
Reply to: Message 98 by Theodoric
08-03-2013 11:09 PM


Re: is it all interpretation/s?
1) Nice try.
2) Finding something that the Jews wrote denying Jesus was my argument.
I was saying the opposite, that the evidence against your oft tried and failed attempt to discredit Christianity by demanding hard evidence after 2000 years for his very existence is foiled because the Jews never wrote an argument against his existence.
3) I'll go down your rabbit hole, tho,' and point out the recently discovered writings that mention Jesus even though the Jews tried to expunge all negative comments in their Talmud(s), etc. out of fear during the Middle Ages.
NOTE:
"And it is tradition: On the eve of Passover they hung Jeshu [the Nazarene]. And the crier went forth before him forty days (saying), [Jeshu the Nazarene] goeth forth to be stoned, because he hath practiced magic and deceived and led Israel astray. Anyone who knoweth aught in his favor, let him come and declare concerning him. And they found naught in his favor. And they hung him on the eve of the Passover. Ulla said, 'Would it be supposed that [Jeshu the Nazarene] a revolutionary, had aught in his favor?' He was a deceiver and the Merciful (i.e. God) hath said (Deut. xiii 8), ‘Thou shalt not spare, neither shalt thou conceal him.’ But it was different with [Jeshu the Nazarene] for he was near the kingdom.'" (Sanhedrin 43a)"
That they, themselves, never wrote a such a defense when they were both persecuted because of their crucifixion and debated by proselytizing Christians is my argument.

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 Message 98 by Theodoric, posted 08-03-2013 11:09 PM Theodoric has not replied

  
kofh2u
Member (Idle past 3930 days)
Posts: 1162
From: phila., PA
Joined: 04-05-2004


Message 105 of 226 (704247)
08-06-2013 8:51 PM
Reply to: Message 103 by ringo
08-06-2013 12:57 PM


Re: is it all interpretation/s?
You don't have independent sources. You have gospel writers who were all on the same side. Where do you have the other viewpoints represented, the viewpoints of the Jewish leaders and the Roman leaders?
You seem to be an intelligent person.
Will you continue to maintain your line of argument when it is clear that the two witnesses here are the House of Jacob and the House of Israel itself???

This message is a reply to:
 Message 103 by ringo, posted 08-06-2013 12:57 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
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kofh2u
Member (Idle past 3930 days)
Posts: 1162
From: phila., PA
Joined: 04-05-2004


Message 160 of 226 (705170)
08-23-2013 8:47 PM
Reply to: Message 145 by Dawn Bertot
08-20-2013 6:01 PM


Re: whats your "evidence" for that?
First you need to demonstrate that the NT writers are not reliable as witnesses to constitute a line of evidence. Whats wrong with thier actual testimony?
There is nothing wrong with reports in the gospels.
Whether what we read was actually observed by the particular bible writer or not does discount a word.
Many if not most reports in own newspapers today are written up by people who were actually there themselves.
People in field call ion the news, or even citizens will call the studio.
But the gospels were a report on an event where everyone MUST had a pretty good idea what was happening, especially since crowd of 5000 and 7000 people was a mega mega event by the standards and population Israel in 32AD.
The stories in the gospels were surely common knowledge and verified by a multitude of witnesses all saying they saw the same thing.
But more important, we KNOW that by 60AD, seven separate congregations of people, large masses of believers were already reading from some written reports of the NT that they were using.
But there is enough evidence to support that Matthew appeared as early as 54AD. And Mathew was there.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 145 by Dawn Bertot, posted 08-20-2013 6:01 PM Dawn Bertot has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 162 by NoNukes, posted 08-24-2013 3:56 AM kofh2u has replied

  
kofh2u
Member (Idle past 3930 days)
Posts: 1162
From: phila., PA
Joined: 04-05-2004


Message 161 of 226 (705171)
08-23-2013 8:58 PM


A New New Testament is a good idea, tho.
Today, Jesus would not need focus attention to the subject of Religion in order to make his point in Philosophy.
Today its unnecessary, because Jesus already has collected the whole world into a classroom, where everyone has done the homework of at least hearing about the subject of Gods and whether that is an important matter for people to even care about.
We can all see what with Sunni killing Shiite, and Terrorism facing civilization as a man made problem.
This is important to straighten people out on "God(s)".
hat Jesus would say today about god(s) is that Reality is the almighty that day by day unfolds with the facts of life that can threaten us and yet be used to make life better.
He would say only insane people would avoid living in Reality so that they could deal with the actual problems of survival.
He would that Truth is the light into that reality, and Truth is the messiah and savior for us all, as Rev Martin Luther King demonstrated for us setting his people free.
Truth is the son of the ever unfolding Reality that sire that truth in its wake.
Jesus would applaud modern science and academics and technology as positive uses of The Truth.

  
kofh2u
Member (Idle past 3930 days)
Posts: 1162
From: phila., PA
Joined: 04-05-2004


Message 163 of 226 (705186)
08-24-2013 9:39 AM
Reply to: Message 162 by NoNukes
08-24-2013 3:56 AM


Re: Really??
every time we see a written description of an event with a large number of people in it, the description itself would be self validating because each of the people in the description is a witness to said event.
You are just saying that we can't believe everything we read in the Newspaper.
We really don't have a choice, though, because we do rely upon what others report even when we write History books, as we examine the past in many ways and piece together how the present reasonable seems to have become what it is.
That we saw martyrs die under the persecutions of Rome, early on, in what became Christianity, our understanding of human nature convinces us that those people were powerfully influenced to have placed their lives in jeopardy, willing, for some reason or another.
Believing in the gospel stories s what we understand explains their behavior.
This is very strong evidence that those people had their "proofs" that these things had taken place.
They had enough proof that millions eventually converted the whole world of their over their own dead bodies.
I don't believe everything I read in the Newspaper, but when a starling event like the fall of Rome, and the accompanying total conversion of that previous decadent culture with all its beliefs in mythological Gods just changed, by a vote to willing do so, I must take the reasons of the Gospels seriously as what caused this.
They SEEMED to have enough PROOF that this happened.
They were the JURY in that day.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 162 by NoNukes, posted 08-24-2013 3:56 AM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 164 by Theodoric, posted 08-24-2013 10:30 AM kofh2u has replied
 Message 168 by NoNukes, posted 08-24-2013 9:12 PM kofh2u has replied

  
kofh2u
Member (Idle past 3930 days)
Posts: 1162
From: phila., PA
Joined: 04-05-2004


(3)
Message 165 of 226 (705193)
08-24-2013 10:57 AM
Reply to: Message 164 by Theodoric
08-24-2013 10:30 AM


Re: Really??
-qs
If your argument were true than the empire would have survived after the Emperors became christian. [/qs]
The empire DID survive as Universal Christianity for the 1000 years that had been predicted:
Rev. 20:4 And I saw thrones (of Universal Christian authority) and they, (the 144,000 monks of Catholic monasticism: [Rev14:4]), sat upon them (Christianity mandated as the ONLY legal religion in the Empire, in 380AD), and (theocratic) judgment was given unto them (in the days of Catholic Monasticism): and I saw the souls, (the spirit-like psyches), of them that were beheaded for color=red>neither had received his mark (of ledgered accounts recorded) upon their foreheads, or in (wages in) their hands; and they lived (as angels in the minds of Christians who have followed, these beheaded saints, in the memories of congregations who worship
.... and (they) reigned (in Monasticism) with Christ a thousand years, (from 54 AD upon the appearance of the Holy Comforter, until 1054 AD with the first Schism of Greek Orthodoxy).
Study History more yourself, and you will see that the millennium kingdom of Jesus was not forced but agreed to by and large.
The masses rose up and overturned the vested interest f the pagans , their temples, and their priests.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 164 by Theodoric, posted 08-24-2013 10:30 AM Theodoric has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 166 by Theodoric, posted 08-24-2013 4:19 PM kofh2u has replied

  
kofh2u
Member (Idle past 3930 days)
Posts: 1162
From: phila., PA
Joined: 04-05-2004


(3)
Message 167 of 226 (705219)
08-24-2013 8:13 PM
Reply to: Message 166 by Theodoric
08-24-2013 4:19 PM


Re: Really??
I don't know why I even bothered trying to engage you.
Probably we talk to one other ONLY because Percy has suspend enough people for infractions of having an opinion that irritates him and there is hardly anyone else to interact with.
I find you to be rather shallow and quickly reduced to demeaning the person who has the urge to respond to many many biased and even uniformed statements found here, as would be expected when censorship protects such crap and promotes propaganda safe from exposure.

This message is a reply to:
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kofh2u
Member (Idle past 3930 days)
Posts: 1162
From: phila., PA
Joined: 04-05-2004


Message 169 of 226 (705234)
08-25-2013 5:37 AM
Reply to: Message 168 by NoNukes
08-24-2013 9:12 PM


winning people over...
Have you ever seen or participated in a winning of a soul for Christ? What kind of 'evidence' was involved? I have never seen anything except personal anecdotes involved.
Winning souls for good behavior depends upon the presence of a Conscience inside the person which I identify with the Good Shepherd some people have a personal relationship with.
Winning people over and into a particular church is hardly different than winning people over to join a country club or the into the Democratic Party, otherwise.
People are intellectually "won over" in every discipline, whether it be theological, scientific, philosophical, etc, by arguments.
As you noted, I had place the word "proof" in quotes.
I did that because their is no such a thing as offering someone else "proof," unless the person to whom the proof is offered has already agreed to some frame of reference in one discipline or another.
I can prove congruence of triangles if you will learn the Geometry the precedes my proof, but otherwise, you can deny and argue and come back with almost any response to avoid say, "I agree."
So my direct answer here is that I have had people take my position on many different issues concern the events of 32AD, but what proved my point to them was something they accepted out of the evidence of my arguments.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 168 by NoNukes, posted 08-24-2013 9:12 PM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
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kofh2u
Member (Idle past 3930 days)
Posts: 1162
From: phila., PA
Joined: 04-05-2004


Message 176 of 226 (705353)
08-26-2013 12:32 PM
Reply to: Message 173 by NoNukes
08-26-2013 12:31 AM


Re: winning people over...
The question is not whether Christ is real or whether you can persuasively advance that proposition. The sole question involved in this discussion is whether there is evidence for the proposition.
Evidence of Christ, yes,... not proof, since you can reject the evidence for any reason you my dream up and still say its not proof to you.
We know that Pontius Pilate existed. (See wikipedia article on pontius pilate: an emerald stone was found with a letter of praise given him by Caesar Tiberius which authenticates his existence)
According to George H. Duggan, the gospels began as oral tales until they were written. The earliest dating analysis on the "Jesus Papyrus", fragments of the Gospel of Mark and Matthew found in Luxor, Egypt--under a confocal laser scanning microscope by C.P. Thiede in the Magdalen College, Oxford revealed the fragments to be no older than July 24, 66 AD.
"Dating the Gospels" by George H. Duggan
...and, of course the well known:
External References to Jesus and the Christian Church.
Josephus.
Born to priestly family in A.D. 37. Commanded Jewish troops in Galilee during rebellion. Surrendered, and earned favor of Emperor Vespasian. Wrote 20 books of Antiquities of the Jews. Refers to John the Baptist (killed by Herod) and to James, the brother of Jesus (condemned to death by stoning by the Sanhedrin).
He referred to Jesus in his Antiquities 18:63. The standard text of Josephus reads as follows:
"About this time lived Jesus, a wise man, if indeed one ought to call him a man. For he was the achiever of extraordinary deeds and was a teacher of those who accept the truth gladly. He won over many Jews and many of the Greeks. He was the Messiah. When he was indicted by the principal men among us and Pilate condemned him to be crucified, those who had come to love him originally did not cease to do so; for he appeared to them on the third day restored to life, as the prophets of the Deity had foretold these and countless other marvelous things about him, and the tribe of the Christians, so named after him, has not disappeared to this day." (Josephus The Essential Works, P. L. Maier ed./trans.).
But the BEST testimony to Jesus is the Jews themselves, who have reported against him and what he said from the very beginning and recorded it in their Talmud.
Rev. 11:7 And when they, (the House of Jacob and the House of Judah, the two candlestick witnesses), shall have finished their testimony (against their own suffering messiah), the (seven headed) beast (of Western civilization) that (had) ascendeth out of the bottomless pit (in The Renaissance) shall make (secular) war against them, (these Jews of the diaspora), and shall overcome them (in 1942), and kill them (with gas and starvation and brutalities).

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 Message 186 by Theodoric, posted 09-03-2013 9:52 PM kofh2u has replied

  
kofh2u
Member (Idle past 3930 days)
Posts: 1162
From: phila., PA
Joined: 04-05-2004


Message 198 of 226 (706188)
09-07-2013 4:27 PM
Reply to: Message 186 by Theodoric
09-03-2013 9:52 PM


Re: winning people over...
KOFH2u:
But the BEST testimony to Jesus is the Jews themselves, who have reported against him and what he said from the very beginning and recorded it in their Talmud.
Theodoric:
Please provide these examples from the Talmud. Anyone can make assertions, lets see the actual evidence.
Sorry for the delay, but I only attend occasionally now because there is a restriction on freedom of expression here.
But, yes, the evidence that after Christianity soon turned the tables of the persecution by the Jews, and the Jews themselves became persecuted, the Talmud was censored" and all the derogatory references to Jesus and his followers were eliminated by and large, replaced only with inneudo and non-specific references to Jesus.
....
in the seventeenth century, Jewish rabbis took steps to expunge all references to Jesus. This act was motivated primarily by the Church's persecution of the Jews. Josh McDowell and Bill Wilson explain:
"... in light of the persecutions, the Jewish communities imposed censorship on themselves to remove references to Jesus in their writings so that they might no longer be a target of attack.
Morris Goldstein, former Professor of Old and New Testament Literature at the Pacific School of Religion, relates:
Thus, in 1631 the Jewish Assembly of Elders in Poland declared: ‘We enjoin you under the threat of the great ban to publish in no new edition of the Mishnah or the Gemara anything that refers to Jesus of Nazareth... If you will not diligently heed this letter, but run counter thereto and continue to publish our books in the same manner as heretofore, you might bring over us and yourselves still greater sufferings than in previous times.’
At first, deleted portions of words in printed Talmuds were indicated by small circles or blank spaces but, in time, these too were forbidden by the censors.
As a result of the twofold censorship the usual volumes of Rabbinic literature contain only a distorted remnant of supposed allusions to Jesus ..." (Ibid, pp. 58-59)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 186 by Theodoric, posted 09-03-2013 9:52 PM Theodoric has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 199 by Theodoric, posted 09-07-2013 5:39 PM kofh2u has replied

  
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