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Author Topic:   the new new testament???
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 143 of 226 (704930)
08-20-2013 4:15 PM
Reply to: Message 141 by Theodoric
08-19-2013 11:00 PM


Re: is it all interpretation/s?
Oh and are you talking about Napoleon?
He's probably talking about Alexander the Great. And besides getting the putative author wrong, Bertot has managed to undercut his entire line of argument, which was not entirely meritless, by using this example.
ABE:
What we have regarding Alexander the Great seeing UFOs is a couple of people saying that Alexander the Great describing UFOs without even a single reference or pointer to Alexander's writings or any contemporary writings.
http://www.openminds.tv/...the-alexander-the-great-ufo-story
quote:
We have to agree with Deliyannis. Until ufologists and ancient astronaut writers find legitimate historical accounts that back up the alleged UFO incidents of Alexander the Great, the story should not be repeated as factual.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I believe that a scientist looking at nonscientific problems is just as dumb as the next guy.
Richard P. Feynman
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 141 by Theodoric, posted 08-19-2013 11:00 PM Theodoric has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 144 by Theodoric, posted 08-20-2013 5:30 PM NoNukes has not replied
 Message 146 by Dawn Bertot, posted 08-20-2013 6:20 PM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(2)
Message 150 of 226 (704972)
08-21-2013 12:28 PM
Reply to: Message 146 by Dawn Bertot
08-20-2013 6:20 PM


Re: is it all interpretation/s?
I agree however that alittle more research inthat area would have been useful
Are you claiming to have done some research? Tell me why this goofy incident with 'Napoleon' does not illustrate how you form your opinions and beliefs?

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I believe that a scientist looking at nonscientific problems is just as dumb as the next guy.
Richard P. Feynman
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 146 by Dawn Bertot, posted 08-20-2013 6:20 PM Dawn Bertot has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 157 of 226 (705055)
08-22-2013 2:15 PM
Reply to: Message 154 by ringo
08-22-2013 12:08 PM


Re: whats your "evidence" for that?
You have no such confirmation of your so-called "eyewitnesses". Where are the records to show that Jesus, Matthew, Mark, Luke and John even existed?
Mark and Luke are generally not claimed to be eyewitnesses.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I believe that a scientist looking at nonscientific problems is just as dumb as the next guy.
Richard P. Feynman
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 154 by ringo, posted 08-22-2013 12:08 PM ringo has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 158 by Theodoric, posted 08-22-2013 2:18 PM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 159 of 226 (705057)
08-22-2013 2:35 PM
Reply to: Message 158 by Theodoric
08-22-2013 2:18 PM


Re: whats your "evidence" for that?
Sorry,
I edited my post to delete John and Matthew because many Christians believe that John and Matthew were eyewitnesses. Luke pretty much admits that he was not, and the case for Mark being an eyewitness is weak to non-existent.
ABE:
Dawn's reputation arrives here well before any of Dawn's posts.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I believe that a scientist looking at nonscientific problems is just as dumb as the next guy.
Richard P. Feynman
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 158 by Theodoric, posted 08-22-2013 2:18 PM Theodoric has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 162 of 226 (705179)
08-24-2013 3:56 AM
Reply to: Message 160 by kofh2u
08-23-2013 8:47 PM


Really??
But the gospels were a report on an event where everyone MUST had a pretty good idea what was happening, especially since crowd of 5000 and 7000 people was a mega mega event by the standards and population Israel in 32AD.
Surely even you can see the circular nature of this argument. Using your reasoning every time we see a written description of an event with a large number of people in it, the description itself would be self validating because each of the people in the description is a witness to said event. So for example the baseball games in the movie 'Bull Durham' must have actually happened.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I believe that a scientist looking at nonscientific problems is just as dumb as the next guy.
Richard P. Feynman
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 160 by kofh2u, posted 08-23-2013 8:47 PM kofh2u has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 163 by kofh2u, posted 08-24-2013 9:39 AM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 168 of 226 (705222)
08-24-2013 9:12 PM
Reply to: Message 163 by kofh2u
08-24-2013 9:39 AM


Re: Really??
You are just saying that we can't believe everything we read in the Newspaper.
What I actually said was that it is impossible to tell whether a described event actually happened simply by noting that the description of the event includes the presence of lots of people.
This is very strong evidence that those people had their "proofs" that these things had taken place.
I see that you use "proofs" in quotation marks. Actually, the events you describe are evidence of their faith, and as the Bible repeatedly states, faith fulfills the role of evidence in belief. Of course, the most direct expression of such are in Hebrews 11 and in Christ's statements to doubting Thomas.
The deaths of martyrs are strong evidence that those people believed that those things had taken place. It does not demonstrate the basis for their belief. And let us be quite frank. Very few Christians today believe what they believe because of anything we would reasonably consider evidence.
Have you ever seen or participated in a winning of a soul for Christ? What kind of 'evidence' was involved? I have never seen anything except personal anecdotes involved.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I believe that a scientist looking at nonscientific problems is just as dumb as the next guy.
Richard P. Feynman
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 163 by kofh2u, posted 08-24-2013 9:39 AM kofh2u has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 169 by kofh2u, posted 08-25-2013 5:37 AM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 172 of 226 (705299)
08-26-2013 12:26 AM
Reply to: Message 171 by Dawn Bertot
08-25-2013 7:42 PM


Re: whats your "evidence" for that?
BTW, these are not actually evidence as Ringo requires, if you did not actually witnesse the events
That is complete nonsense. It turns out that eye witness accounts and testimony are the least reliable evidence of all types. The most reliable evidence is indirect or circumstantial evidence. Ringo has said nothing about requiring eye witness testimony as evidence. Instead he has talked about methods of buttressing purported eye witness testimony, most of said methods not involving witnesses.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I believe that a scientist looking at nonscientific problems is just as dumb as the next guy.
Richard P. Feynman
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 171 by Dawn Bertot, posted 08-25-2013 7:42 PM Dawn Bertot has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 179 by Dawn Bertot, posted 08-26-2013 8:17 PM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 173 of 226 (705300)
08-26-2013 12:31 AM
Reply to: Message 169 by kofh2u
08-25-2013 5:37 AM


Re: winning people over...
Winning souls for good behavior depends upon the presence of a Conscience inside the person which I identify with the Good Shepherd some people have a personal relationship with.
So you agree that evidence is not the proper term. That's the sole point at issue here. The question is not whether Christ is real or whether you can persuasively advance that proposition. The sole question involved in this discussion is whether there is evidence for the proposition.
I take it from your choice to talk about everything but evidence that you don't have any contrary answer.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I believe that a scientist looking at nonscientific problems is just as dumb as the next guy.
Richard P. Feynman
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 169 by kofh2u, posted 08-25-2013 5:37 AM kofh2u has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 176 by kofh2u, posted 08-26-2013 12:32 PM NoNukes has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 180 of 226 (705428)
08-26-2013 11:08 PM
Reply to: Message 179 by Dawn Bertot
08-26-2013 8:17 PM


Re: whats your "evidence" for that?
Of course eyewitness testimony can have no less value than anyother type of evidence, as Evidence.
You are wrong. Eyewitness testimony is less reliable than evidence that does not require us to determine the honesty, and human accuracy of eyewitness testimony.
But thats the point isnt it? Any methods of evidence that support the validity and reliability of the NT, not involving witnesses, are sumarily dismissed by you fellas.
The point is that the only evidence that I've seen you cite is testimony purported to be eyewitness testimony and hearsay, which is essentially testimony of non witnesses.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I believe that a scientist looking at nonscientific problems is just as dumb as the next guy.
Richard P. Feynman
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 179 by Dawn Bertot, posted 08-26-2013 8:17 PM Dawn Bertot has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 181 by Dawn Bertot, posted 08-26-2013 11:36 PM NoNukes has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 202 of 226 (706207)
09-08-2013 12:24 AM
Reply to: Message 200 by kofh2u
09-07-2013 9:37 PM


Re: no on edenies Jesus is mentioned in the Talmud...
... minus your arbitrary demand that I find the older Talmud that supports both what I told you, (1) as per the best witness to Jesus being the Jews themselves and(2) the source of my claim.
Are you serious? You think that the best evidence that the statement were in the old Talmud is some guy saying so, rather than the old Talmud itself?
The guy you are quoting claims that the old Talmuds are available. If he's not lying, it should be easy to prove that by showing us.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I believe that a scientist looking at nonscientific problems is just as dumb as the next guy.
Richard P. Feynman
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 200 by kofh2u, posted 09-07-2013 9:37 PM kofh2u has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 212 of 226 (706425)
09-11-2013 12:30 PM
Reply to: Message 203 by Dawn Bertot
09-09-2013 4:54 PM


Re: whats your "evidence" for that?
Im not sure what you think debating is or is not, but when you consistently ignore the fact that from the earliest times of Christianity we can see clearly what the majority of books that were considered as authentic by both Christian an heritic, you demonstrate you have no concern for objectivity
Really? From the earliest times? So what books were in the Bible at the Chruch of Ephesus back during Paul's visits, Bertot?
Your answer does not even address the question and is in fact historically inaccurate. We know that the process of canonization included disagreement and debate. It is foolish and ignorant to imply otherwise.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I believe that a scientist looking at nonscientific problems is just as dumb as the next guy.
Richard P. Feynman
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 203 by Dawn Bertot, posted 09-09-2013 4:54 PM Dawn Bertot has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 214 by Dawn Bertot, posted 09-11-2013 8:46 PM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 220 of 226 (706493)
09-12-2013 2:05 PM
Reply to: Message 214 by Dawn Bertot
09-11-2013 8:46 PM


Re: whats your "evidence" for that?
Well besides some of Pauls letters, James and a few others Id say the Old Testament. But since there were inspired Apostles still in existence, books werent yet necessary
The obvious point is that at the time of the earliest points, many of the books in your Bible had not even been written. So the earliest fathers could not have made the decisions about those books.
Without the defining of history, the letters written, acceptance of books by the early church and numerous other factors, there would not be canons
What you are describing are the factors that were considered when the canon were established. And what you chose to ignore was that upon considering those factors, different people came up with different lists.
And it is not just a matter of semantics. You are pretending that the process of adoption never occurred. Yet your statement actually distinguishes the canons from the history. In short your own statements are completely inconsistent.
As usual.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I believe that a scientist looking at nonscientific problems is just as dumb as the next guy.
Richard P. Feynman
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 214 by Dawn Bertot, posted 09-11-2013 8:46 PM Dawn Bertot has not replied

  
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