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Author Topic:   Possible Signature of Extraordinary Intervention
andygee
Junior Member (Idle past 2205 days)
Posts: 20
From: New York, NY USA
Joined: 05-24-2013


Message 1 of 46 (700298)
05-26-2013 6:11 PM


I have come here seeking the help of people active in and knowledgeable of the debate on origins.

For many years I have had a question: Unique among ancient texts, Genesis lists a large number of very datable (or datable in principle) events AND concomitant dating information. Not only that, Genesis dates typically (except for date information in conjunction with the flood event) have three significant digits, as opposed to the rest of the bible, which generally have just two. Yet almost all of the dates are wrong. Why put them in if they're going to be found out to be wrong?

So, I devised a protocol to examine the question. I followed the protocol. Very much to my surprise, I got a result.

A fairly simple algorithm, using all of the datable events and numbers in Genesis, and only those events and numbers, and with the decryption key in plain text (practically with a neon sign that says "decrypt with me") extracts a steganographic chronology.

A condensed description of the algorithm follows:

Chronological dating in the Hebrew Scriptures occurs in four separate and distinct time lines. Events mentioned in the scriptures known to have actually happened (i.e. invention of clothing or brick architecture, or the emergence of lactase persistence,) when plotted on the relevant time line, are dated accurately.

Correct dates for most of these events could not have been known to a contemporaneous biblical author; this information constitutes an "out of place artifact" within the text of the scriptures; this anachronistic information requires explanation. Since dating the historic events is possible for a "modern" audience, the simplest explanation, should this hypothesis be accepted, is that the information is a "signature" meant to be discovered at a future date.

Overview of the Time Lines

  • The Historical Time Line - interval scale. Joshua to Chronicles. Events are timed according to reigns of Judges or Kings, and, except for the book of Esther, are externally verified to contemporaneous sources (i.e. Iron and Bronze Ages, attack on the Northern Kingdom by Assyria.). Since events in this time line are "in clear" they will not be analyzed for dating.

  • The Adam-Seth Time Line - interval scale. Events follow the life spans and first parenthood dates of descendants of Adam through Seth, but in a lightly encrypted manor. The transformation from ages in the text to real numbers of years is Age^2/120 for Adam and his descendants through Seth. For Methuselah, for example, instead of living 969 years, a little over 8 times the "age of a man” (120 years,) the actual span of time represented is 969 times a little more than 8, or 7,925 years. This dating continues until biblical characters started living 120 years or less. This transformation puts the invention of clothing, for example, at approximately 73,000 years ago, and the earliest use of wine at 8,000 years ago. The actual mapping is as follows: Seth, Adam's son, (and all subsequent descendants,) are assigned a "birth date" of the father's birth date, plus his own adjusted age, plus the listed date of first paternity for the father. The Seth age starts at 0 plus Seth’s adjusted life span, 6,391 years, plus Adam’s paternity age, 130, or 7,061, and lasts 6,391 years. (Obviously, it would have been easier if ages and paternity dates operated in a normal manner, but this is the one combination that matches the events to our current understanding of their dates.) To translate the virtual dates into common calendar dates, we need a stipulated end point of the time line, taken to be 1250 BC as a virtual date of the Exodus event. This results in the following dates: Clothing, 73 KYA. Global Cooling (switch from grass skirts to leather jackets) just after 73 KYA. Last non-Homo Sapiens people, 22 KYA. Post-glacial melt, starting 12 KYA. Wine, 8 KYA. Tall brick structures, 6 KYA. Lactase persistence in Southwest Asia, 4 KYA. Spread of circumcision from Africa to Asia, 4 KYA. Hyksos in Egypt, before 1600 BC. Famine in Egypt (Thera eruption) about 1650 BC. A full table of all events and references is in the complete paper, available as described above, including events for the God and Cain lines.

  • The Adam-Cain Time Line - ordinal scale. Listed events happen in order. For example, clothing and the nudity taboo are invented, an ice age begins, agriculture is invented, settled farmers displace nomadic herdsmen, cities arise, orchestral music appears, polygamy is invented, we have a bronze age and then an iron age. The actual datable events in this time line occur during the Cain and Cain’s Lamech periods. Both of those periods have a “multiplier” within the text: Seven in the case of Cain, the amount of retribution promised by God to Cain if anyone defies Cain’s mark and harms him; Cain’s descendant Lamech declares himself an additional 10 times the retribution accorded Cain. This allows for numerical scaling of the events, if not actual dating.

  • The God Time Line - ratio scale. Events in the order of creation occur in proportion to the day numbers enumerated. For example, there is a zero time point for our universe, the hypothesis predicts that planetogenesis (of rocky planets) starts at between 2.3 billion years and 4.6 billion years, autotrophic life after 4.6 billion years, and our particular solar system was formed at between 6.9 and 9.2 billion years.

  • Selection rule. Some events, specifically God's interactions with Adam and Cain, occur in multiple time lines. The event will be placed in the line with the best date fit. Some events occur in a time line and also in a "summary list," for example, the blessing given to Adam and Eve upon their expulsion from Eden. The first mention of the event controls the dating.

  • Accuracy and Reliability. An attempt is made to match every event or occurrence in the biblical text to an actual occurrence as long as it doesn't require more than two assumptions to make the connection. Based on an allowance for “noise” in the signal and the accuracy of our scientific dating methods, dating within 15% would count as a match.

  • Word selection and translation. Biblical Hebrew has a very limited vocabulary. A pit can be a pit or Hell; sky can be sky or heaven, spirit can be breath or wind or spirit. Word meanings and translations are allowed to be selected to be the closest bridge between a textually described event and a known real-world occurrence. For the purposes of this research, traditional renderings in translation for “earth” and “heavens” are given a more neutral “mater” and “space.” Also, “firmament,” a spread-out, roundish, hollowish piece of metal, is taken as a protoplanetary disk with sufficient metal content to spawn a more or less solid planet.

All events actually known to have happened (origin of the universe, formation of our particular solar system, emergence of Humankind, inventions of clothing, wine, and tall brick structures, the last stand of non-Human Hominids, and lactase persistence in Southwest Asia, to name a few datable events, all fall into place in the chronology. Events in Genesis clearly pointing to datable events (glacial melt, for example) also fall correctly in place. Events for which we have no consensus dating (first solid-ish planet, for example) fall along pretty good guesses. [Some events achieved dating after I had my algorithm, such as the possible emergence of a Broca's region in Australopithecus sediba) but since it hasn't been published, that doesn't do me any good except for self-validation. The "pretty good guesses" may serve as predictions arising from the project, subject of validation or falsification.]

Finding a fairly complete (although concise) and reasonably accurate Cosmological, Terrestrial, and Human chronology inside a Bronze Age book I take to be a signature of an extraordinary intervention of some kind by a person, persons, or entity unknown, and by a manner and for a purpose equally unknown. (This project is completely belief-neutral and should have absolutely no bearing on anyone's religious ideas or practices. It's just an out of place artifact found in a really old book.

I am a complete non-academic. The toolkit for my protocol comes from my work as a fraud investigator, and it's almost never been wrong. However, I am completely at sea when it comes to having my result validated or discredited. I would be very happy to have some fine research institution tell me, for example, thank you for your submission, but according to the Lipschitz Decryption Theorem, it just isn't anything special. Then I could move on to something simpler, like dog rescue, cold fusion, or bicycle commuting advocacy. But that hasn't happened.

I would be happy to discuss the implications of this result in this topic. But what I would really like is if someone here is an academic math or encryption person with a fair knowledge of the events described in Genesis, or has the resources of such a person available, to tell me if I am wrong, and why, or if I'm actually onto something.

I can't actually circulate my paper (Accurate Dating within Early Hebrew Scripture as a Signature of Extraordinary Intervention) publicly because it might still be under consideration at several organizations, although that is not likely. I would be happy to answer any questions, however.

Ideally, it would be great of three people from the Evolution side and three people from the Creation side took this up. If you have the resources to move this forward and want a friend for life (not to mention free beer and pizza when you're in New York) please contact me.

Before you write this message off, consider this little Pascal's side-bet: what would it be worth if my result actually has some shred of validity, and you got to be a co-author.

Thanks for your consideration,

Andy Grell

Edited by andygee, : request of admin

Edited by Admin, : Add some helpful formatting.


ut numquam formabat taco

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andygee
Junior Member (Idle past 2205 days)
Posts: 20
From: New York, NY USA
Joined: 05-24-2013


Message 9 of 46 (700416)
06-02-2013 9:37 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by PaulK
06-02-2013 3:40 AM


Hi Paul --

Thanks for your comments.

If the text wanted to be unambiguous about the creation of the actual Planet Earth, the word would have been "olam." "Aretz" means many things, including dirt and country. I choose to reject the editorial choice of translating it "The Earth" in favor just plain stuff. Similarly, "Shemayim" really just means sky. When you look up at the sky, you are looking at space.

The point of the exercise is that knowledge of what we understand to be the "scientific" chronology of the Universe is contained in Genesis. We believe we observe that the Universe started from nothing and from that emerged stuff and space and energy. I'm far from the first person to point that out.

Incidentally, my dating of the God line begins at exactly the same place as the text does, at zero. We just observe that today is +13.8 billion years.

As for the Seth line, this is the way codes are cracked. In a substitution code, you try out the most frequently used letters in the text with the most frequently used letters in the language, then poke and tweak until you get a coherent message. Clothes, Neanderthals, wine, bricks, circumcision, etc, all line up coherently. It's a single rule which accurately (well, at least according to scientific observation) these events. In the full work, I justify the decrypting of the text using examples within the Bible itself; the clearest one being Sheshek, a rotation code for Babel.

As for the multiple time line events, you raise a valid point. But I'm not discarding the worst, my algorithm rule is to choose the best.


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andygee
Junior Member (Idle past 2205 days)
Posts: 20
From: New York, NY USA
Joined: 05-24-2013


Message 10 of 46 (700417)
06-02-2013 9:46 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by Dr Adequate
06-02-2013 10:59 AM


Part 2 of the complete work discusses this. But first, I'm not by a longshot the first person to tackle this; there are creation-days as eras schema, general revelation and special revelation schema, etc.

My sub-hypothesis for this is that whoever put the encryption in can't or won't give out information that isn't already known. Now we know this stuff, so it is already known at this point. What we get is not new information but the information that someone is authenticating the moral information by supplying this stenographic message along with it. I support this with examples of known "information barriers."


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andygee
Junior Member (Idle past 2205 days)
Posts: 20
From: New York, NY USA
Joined: 05-24-2013


Message 11 of 46 (700418)
06-02-2013 9:58 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by NoNukes
06-02-2013 11:04 AM


I should have been more clear; 4 creation days from zero, or approximately 4.6 billion years ago. It's annoying that this is such a squeaker and it looks like it really should be in day 5. However, 15 years ago, the age of the universe was 20 billion and it wouldn't have worked out at al and now it's so close. The only justification I have for this is that it's in my margin of error, and that apparently at least one sample moon rock appears to be 5 billion years old. Maybe.

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andygee
Junior Member (Idle past 2205 days)
Posts: 20
From: New York, NY USA
Joined: 05-24-2013


Message 16 of 46 (700509)
06-03-2013 8:50 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by PaulK
06-03-2013 1:51 AM


Hi again, Paul!

I've missed your translation argument. You say the text at Gen 1 does not say anything about a planet, and i say gen ! does not say anything about a planet.
However, you say it doesn't say anything about space, but I say that the best translation for Shemayim is sky, and sky is space.
This has nothing to do with my algorithm, really, it's a note for people married to the KJV that aretz does not necessarily refer to our specific planet and that Shemayim is not Heaven as in the place we go when we die.

The Hebrew creation myth has a critical difference from the cousins from which it appears to be syncretic. Most creation myths have order being wrested from chaos and that the chaos had been around forever. The Genesis text clear has a zero point, a beginning, which includes the chaotic waters. Organization has to be added to the system to get entropy flowing.

My claim about dating on the God line is that it is a ratio scale. Most of the events have yet to have a scientific consensus. Light on day one, the first solid-ish planet on day 2 (that's early for mainstream science, but no one would be really surprised if it could be modeled or if it were determined. Either way, it's subject to falsification or confirmation in principle) first macroscopic life in the universe on day 3 (3 billion years, or parts of 2 creation days, are what we observe to be the time scale for this) our own solar system oh-so-very-close to day 4 (so close that i might argue that the creation of our solar system starts with the protoplanetay disk, putting it square in day 4) the universe achieves a metalicity sufficient for enough calcium to be around to make large fauna, which of course start i the sea, on day 5. And we show up on day 6.

About the code example, now you're just arguing to argue. It was an example. SHESHEK is a rotation code, another example I gave to justify decrypting the text. Here is how i derived it. About 20 years ago, anthropologists were moving the dating for the Great Leap Forward, and, since I always thought that so much of Genesis pointed to real events, that the dates would be in there somewhere. So the first thing I considered was that nobody really lived to be 900; the age of a man in Genesis is given as 120 (and no one then could have known that that really is an upper age limit, BTW) and so i wanted to see what happened if the ages were inverted. I didn't catch the GLF, and I set it aside for a while, then picked it up again in conjunction with something completely different. That was my first 75 KYA scale, and AFTER that, the head lice / body lice data came out dating clothing to 75 KYA. So really, my answer to you is that I was trying different things, i got a partial message that told me something no one knew that turned out to be true, then I just spun the wheels until the safe opened.

The real question I want answered is ASSUMING my Seth line dates are correct and my Genesis event to real world event mapping is reasonable, what is the probability of that happening by chance?

as for choosing the best fit, haven't you ever put a jigsaw puzzle together? The only time it comes into play in the Seth line is for clothing. And I have also have a reasonable justification: Adam and Eve made their own clothes, putting grass skirts squarely in the Adam-Seth line; God made the leather jackets, but that was after the grass skirts. Mt. Tobu, a volcano causing 300 years of global cooling, erupted shortly after the head/body lice divergence.


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andygee
Junior Member (Idle past 2205 days)
Posts: 20
From: New York, NY USA
Joined: 05-24-2013


Message 17 of 46 (700511)
06-03-2013 9:15 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by Dr Adequate
06-03-2013 1:10 PM


Hi, Doc!

Your first sentence is, I guess, true.

And cutting to the end for a second, I'm sure we both would be happier if the country were knee deep in people who, for example, lobbied for putting fences around roofs so children don't fall off, making sure everyone has enough to eat, making sure everyone has access to health care, homestead protections, all the good stuff we take for granted that appears in the Bible.

But i digress. Yes, the author doesn't impart anything the reader can know for sure is true if the reader doesn't already know it. The overt message (a message being composed of a signal, noise, and a medium) in the Bible is a moral story about how it sucks not to have reliable and fair laws (ask Tamar) and how much we can accomplish if we have this. This appears, for the mist part, to be pretty much what we observe today. the medium is a poetic novel, so enthralling that it began spreading through the literate world about 2,500 years ago. As opposed to other contemporary works that had to be dug out of the sand.

So in this case, a stipulation in the text is that we in fact know right from wrong, and the text illustrates that knowledge in an aesthetically pleasing and exciting way. And then there's the noise in the signal.

The reason for this, which is really speculation on my part, is that the author wants us to figure this out and act on our understanding. Please note that this is not a pitch for any particular religion or dogma. It's about a book that provides for the right to public trial with honest judges, an attorney and bail for the defendant, who has the right to see an indictment and confront witnesses. The right a weekend. The right not to collapse in a monocrop agriculture failure.

The information that couldn't be imparted is, for example, nuclear physics and the formation of stars, or weaponizable biology.

But now that we know it, it's also nice to know there may actually be an authoritative source for being good and not blowing each other up. Or not, it's just a sub-hypothesis. But there are information barriers, presumambly without authors: speed of light, uncertainty, Godel's theorem.

Whew. I managed to get through that entire response without using the phrase Pr*me D*r%kt*ve once.


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andygee
Junior Member (Idle past 2205 days)
Posts: 20
From: New York, NY USA
Joined: 05-24-2013


Message 18 of 46 (700512)
06-03-2013 9:23 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by Coragyps
06-02-2013 12:58 PM


numerology?
I've been seeing the word "numerology" being bandied about in response to my research (if it can be called that.)

Numerology imparts meanings to numbers; lucky, happy, etc. Will someone point out where I've imparted any emotional characteristics to numbers?

There is a Hebrew numerology called Gematria (yes, Hellenized Jews named their numerology after Greek Geometry) which is really just an arrow in the quiver of Talmudic argument.

So to clear:

No one lives to be 900. The age of a man is 120. Real world events are presented alongside the birthdays of people being 900 or so. The inverse of the 900 year ages for people, 6,000 year eras, neatly matches the events to when we think they occurred, and I make statements based on that fact.

Is that numerology?


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andygee
Junior Member (Idle past 2205 days)
Posts: 20
From: New York, NY USA
Joined: 05-24-2013


Message 20 of 46 (700514)
06-03-2013 10:33 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by Dr Adequate
06-03-2013 1:51 PM


Re: An Analogy
well, at least I got an "ingenious" out of this tough crowd.

It's odd you should choose this analogy. My day job is investigating fraud (on a business to business level.) Philips will frequently try to defraud my office's clients by contracting under the name Vnorov. If I were to explain to my clients about what a ROT 6 code is, they would authorize a higher level of investigation, which would tie Vnorov to Philip. I would recover the money. In real life, a large recovery once hinged on my realizing that Ebbets, Polo, and Coogan LLCs were actually all part of the same sham operation. In the whole sordid deal, i was the only one consistently telling the truth.

So how does this fit into your analogy?

At no point am I saying anything in Genesis is "true." I'm just saying there are events we believe to be true and events we believe are not true, and that there are dates associated with those events that we believe are not true.

Even if my sub-hypothesis is correct, it doesn't mean that the moral quality of the Bible is true in an absolute sense, just that the Author wants us to figure out that it is. The sub-hypothesis states that the Author wants us to believe that happiness across a society varies as the log of empathy. That relation can in principle be tested, but it may not be true. For all i know, the ideal moral society is run by Actuary Kings.

My only substantive contention is that there was a someone. I came here looking for someone who could crunch the odds; in my complete work, I used the statistical case for the Higgs Boson as an example.


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andygee
Junior Member (Idle past 2205 days)
Posts: 20
From: New York, NY USA
Joined: 05-24-2013


Message 21 of 46 (700515)
06-03-2013 10:41 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by Coyote
06-03-2013 9:39 PM


Re: numerology?
Hi Coyote --

The global flood is an event pretty much known scientifically not to have happened, so it isn't dated. Only events known to have happened (lactase persistence, for example) are dated. Some events map to real world events that did happen; Noah maps to flooding from post-glacial melt at about 9,000 BC. That's pretty much when it happened. The algorithm does not provide a date for Mt. Everest being fully submerged.


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andygee
Junior Member (Idle past 2205 days)
Posts: 20
From: New York, NY USA
Joined: 05-24-2013


Message 27 of 46 (700599)
06-04-2013 10:25 PM
Reply to: Message 22 by Coyote
06-03-2013 10:54 PM


Re: numerology?
Just to be sure, our planet has been completely water-covered and also completely ice-covered, but IIRC that's hundreds of millions of years ago.

But that has nothing to do with the question at hand, valid dates for events known to have happened.

In my view, and my view counts for nothing, in addition to the fact that this project has nothing to do with religion, if my hypothesis is correct, it makes a distinction between Biblical Literalism and Biblical Inerrancy.


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andygee
Junior Member (Idle past 2205 days)
Posts: 20
From: New York, NY USA
Joined: 05-24-2013


Message 28 of 46 (700602)
06-04-2013 10:42 PM
Reply to: Message 23 by NoNukes
06-03-2013 11:31 PM


Re: numerology?
Whew, you almost had me worried there. Fortunately, no number in this project has relationship, special or otherwise, to any event. The resultant of the previous iteration, two other numbers, and a constant get fed into a function and a date pops out the other side. I prefer to think of this as a transformation, although I'm not sure it formally qualifies as a transformation. How did Lorentz know (or would have known if he hadn't died first) that his transformation was correct in the real world? Because it makes sense out of the timing of Mercury's orbit, among many other things.

Well, I'm off to visit math departments and tell them to stop looking for examples of the Fibonacci ratio in nature, because it is a single number (albeit an irrational one) and because it has a special relation to beauty, so therefore NoNukes says studying it would be numerology.


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andygee
Junior Member (Idle past 2205 days)
Posts: 20
From: New York, NY USA
Joined: 05-24-2013


Message 29 of 46 (700604)
06-04-2013 10:55 PM
Reply to: Message 25 by Dr Adequate
06-04-2013 4:09 AM


Bible True or False Quiz
Please take this little quiz to help Dr. Adequate and myself understand what we each mean about honesty. All questions are true or false.

1. If you go into a room with two children and a broken vase and ask what happened, you are likely to hear one child say "she did it."

2. If you have two teenagers and ask one where the other one is, you are likely to hear "sorry, it's not my turn to babysit."

3. If you marry the boss's daughter, you are quite likely to wind up having discussions hands-on-scabbards.

4. If you are an important CEO, and your father-in-law comes from the old country to visit you at your office, you are very likely to hear about everything you're doing wrong.

5. Without antibiotics, a good way to control infectious disease is regular bathing and sanitation, quarantine of infected individuals, washing or burning of clothing in contact with infected persons.

6. Direct application of manure onto fields at harvest time results in better outcomes for fallow-field agriculture.

7. Monocrop agriculture with a central authority in charge of one or more resources frequently winds up with the peonage of the population, human sacrifice, temple prostitution, and eventually a massive collapse.

8. A weekend is a labor right.

9. a. A woman is quite fertile a week after her period, and b. a man who hasn't had an emission in about 10 days will have a pretty high sperm count when he does.

10. On a cost/benefit basis, hunting is a waste of time compared to farming.

11. if you don't raise animals that eat people food, you will never have to face the choice of feeding your family or feeding your livestock. or be hanged by the Party for feeding subsidized bread to your private pigs.


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andygee
Junior Member (Idle past 2205 days)
Posts: 20
From: New York, NY USA
Joined: 05-24-2013


Message 33 of 46 (700676)
06-05-2013 7:54 PM
Reply to: Message 24 by PaulK
06-04-2013 2:05 AM


Hi, Paul!

I'm going to do this free form.

I should have been more specific with SHESHEK, it's actually a backwards rotation code called the Atbash Cipher.

Here is my cosmology for this project:

Day one, universe starts at a zero point in space-time with matter, space and energy; matter gets organized into recognizable stuff and cools sufficiently for light to exist. I consider Mayim to be any fluid, at this point it would be gas.
Day 2 a firmament appears somewhere in the universe, a protoplanetary disk with sufficient metalacity to form a solid-ish planet.
Day 3 autotrophic life appears somewhere in the universe.
Day 4 our particular solar system begins to take shape, although apparently our actual sun doesn't light up until a few minutes into day 5.
Day 5 the metalicity of the universe is sufficient to have enough calcium available for fauna to appear in an ocean somewhere.
Day 6, here we are. Humans start as frugiverous, upright, small-headed ape-like creatures with a Broca's region, allowing our progenitors to control the environment by means of symbolic communication.

We are now a few minutes into day 7, with large heads (painful birth,) loss of estrus (her desire is for her husband) etc.

In any event, space and matter were created from nothing, and the fluid matter was chaotic and THEN organized.

All the dates are from "science" (wherever that is) because the project maps Genesis events to known datable events. Not a single cosmologist would be surprised if that's the way it played out, and not a single anthropologist would be surprised, either.

I believe that Genesis points to real events because, in fact, it does. Our best understanding of the Universe today is a formation from nothing at a single point establishing space, time, and matter. Fauna did start in the sea. Manure does help fallow field agriculture. Monocrop agriculture does fail.

I have no idea what you mean about the 120 years verse.

The code predicted that clothing would be invented 75 KYA, and then sure enough, that turned out to be the case. The code predicted small head with brain folding, and sure enough, Australopithicus Sediba showed up. The code predicts communication over tools as what makes us us, that's up in the air and goes back and forth. Let's see where it lands.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by PaulK, posted 06-04-2013 2:05 AM PaulK has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 37 by PaulK, posted 06-06-2013 2:22 AM andygee has responded

    
andygee
Junior Member (Idle past 2205 days)
Posts: 20
From: New York, NY USA
Joined: 05-24-2013


Message 34 of 46 (700677)
06-05-2013 7:57 PM
Reply to: Message 30 by Panda
06-05-2013 5:51 AM


Re: Bible True or False Quiz
Smarty pants. Each one is assumed to be prefaced by "is it true or flalse that"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 30 by Panda, posted 06-05-2013 5:51 AM Panda has not yet responded

    
andygee
Junior Member (Idle past 2205 days)
Posts: 20
From: New York, NY USA
Joined: 05-24-2013


Message 35 of 46 (700678)
06-05-2013 7:58 PM
Reply to: Message 31 by Panda
06-05-2013 9:00 AM


Re: Bible True or False Quiz
Manure, sperm, and infectious diseases certainy are answerable items...

This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by Panda, posted 06-05-2013 9:00 AM Panda has not yet responded

    
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