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Author Topic:   Is it egotistical to think that a God would die for you?
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10285
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 115 of 169 (702334)
07-04-2013 12:58 PM
Reply to: Message 111 by ICANT
07-03-2013 4:44 PM


Agony
ICANT writes:

Most have never contemplated what agony God the Son was in when God the Father separated Himself from Him as they had never been separated in eternity past. So He was separated from God the Father for 3 hours so I could spend eternity with God. Just as all those who will accept His offer of eternal life.

Are not most people separated from 'God the father'?

Is it really such agony?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 111 by ICANT, posted 07-03-2013 4:44 PM ICANT has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 116 by AZPaul3, posted 07-04-2013 1:11 PM Straggler has not yet responded
 Message 118 by ICANT, posted 07-04-2013 1:39 PM Straggler has responded

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10285
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 135 of 169 (702373)
07-05-2013 5:58 AM
Reply to: Message 118 by ICANT
07-04-2013 1:39 PM


Re: Agony
Strag writes:

Are not most people separated from 'God the father'?

ICANT writes:

Only those who have died without accepting His offer of eternal live.

You say "only" but that constitutes the overwhelming majority of people that have ever lived doesn't it?

ICANT writes:

You are not separated from God as you receive the on going life you have on earth from Him.

Are you talking about physical life when you talk about my "ongoing life"?

ICANT writes:

The agony does not begin until the physical body dies and the spiritual being is placed in the holding place until the great white throne judgment at which time that spiritual being will be cast into the lake of fire and separated from God for eternity.

Why would physical fire have any sensory effect on a spiritual body?

Which bit of the bible talks about being separated from God as 'agony'?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 118 by ICANT, posted 07-04-2013 1:39 PM ICANT has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 141 by ICANT, posted 07-05-2013 8:18 PM Straggler has responded

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10285
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


(2)
Message 137 of 169 (702379)
07-05-2013 9:15 AM
Reply to: Message 136 by Faith
07-05-2013 7:34 AM


Re: Agony
Faith writes:

My faith is in something I am persuaded by MUCH evidence is an objective reality, meaning outside myself, independent of whatever I happen to think or anybody happens to think about Him.

This is very confused.

I am well aware that you subjectively believe that the God you have faith in is objectively real. But you are getting your subs and objs all conflated and confused.

We can all independently verify and agree that 1 + 1 = 2. We don't need faith to conclude this. The conclusion isn't dependent on culture or personal bias or what have you.

We can all independently verify and agree that an object compatible with the common conceptual meaning of the term 'chair' exists. We don't need faith to conclude the existence of a chair. Etc.

If an alien being completely ignorant of human culture and psychology came along we could demonstrate the existence of chairs and the fact that 1+1=2 because these are objectively derived conclusions.

However conclusively demonstrating that the object of your faith (AKA the Christian God) is objectively real would be impossible. Because this isn't an objective conclusion.

Do you see the difference.....?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 136 by Faith, posted 07-05-2013 7:34 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 139 by Faith, posted 07-05-2013 2:50 PM Straggler has responded
 Message 142 by ICANT, posted 07-05-2013 8:35 PM Straggler has responded

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10285
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 155 of 169 (702492)
07-08-2013 9:30 AM
Reply to: Message 139 by Faith
07-05-2013 2:50 PM


Re: Agony
Faith writes:

It's founded on evidence, very good evidence despite your inability or refusal to recognize it. All the effort that goes into doubting the credibility of the witnesses, their character, their motives, and so on, only serves to get rid of the very evidence that proves God.

If this 'evidence' you speak of depends upon subjective judgements about the character and motives of others then it isn't objective is it?

To demonstate that a chairs exists or that 1+1=2 doesn't depend on character references or some analysis of whether one's motives are pure.

Faith writes:

Uh yeah, pretty sophomoric stuff here.

Well I was trying to get you to consider the difference between things that are the same for everyone (objective) and things which are dependent on shared psychology, culture etc. (subjective).

Do you really not think there is a difference between the demonstrable existence of a chair or a mathematical result and something like the existence of God?

Edited by Straggler, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 139 by Faith, posted 07-05-2013 2:50 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10285
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 156 of 169 (702493)
07-08-2013 9:31 AM
Reply to: Message 142 by ICANT
07-05-2013 8:35 PM


ICANT what you (or I) find subjectively convincing has no bearing on what can be objectively demonstrated.

That the value of the Cosmic Microwave Background mathematically predicted by Big Bang theory exactly matches experimental result can be demonstrated to anyone. What you do with that information I guess is up to you…..

Anyway – We really really shouldn’t drag yet another topic down your T=0 rabbit hole. Let’s stick to gods dying and the related sub issue of objective/subjective.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 142 by ICANT, posted 07-05-2013 8:35 PM ICANT has not yet responded

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10285
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 158 of 169 (702496)
07-08-2013 9:47 AM
Reply to: Message 141 by ICANT
07-05-2013 8:18 PM


Re: Agony
Straggler writes:

Which bit of the bible talks about being separated from God as 'agony'?

ICANT writes:

I think you were the one that introduced that word into this discussion.

Not it was you in Message 111

ICANT writes:

Most have never contemplated what agony God the Son was in when God the Father separated Himself from Him as they had never been separated in eternity past. So He was separated from God the Father for 3 hours so I could spend eternity with God. Just as all those who will accept His offer of eternal life.

So tell me - Where in the bible does it tell us that Christ was in agnoy as a result of being separated from God?

Or is this something you have inferred somehow? (if so how?)

ICANT writes:

I have no way of knowing what the numbers would be one way or the other.

Well if we make an estimate of the number of people that have ever lived Vs an esimate of the number of people that died as born again Christians then we should get a rough idea of what proportion of humanity are separated from 'God the father'.

ICANT writes:

You are not separated from God as you receive the on going life you have on earth from Him.

Straggler writes:

Are you talking about physical life when you talk about my "ongoing life"?

ICANT writes:

So yes I am referring to your physical life. When He withdraws the breath of life from your physical body it will cease to live.

But surely I receive this spiritual life from Him too - Right. So why does the end of physical life equate to being separeted from God? Why are the two related?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 141 by ICANT, posted 07-05-2013 8:18 PM ICANT has not yet responded

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10285
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


(2)
Message 165 of 169 (702531)
07-08-2013 6:34 PM
Reply to: Message 161 by Faith
07-08-2013 2:33 PM


Re: Agony
If this 'evidence' you speak of depends upon subjective judgements about the character and motives of others then it isn't objective is it?

To demonstate that a chair exists or that 1+1=2 doesn't depend on character references or some analysis of whether one's motives are pure.

How can you not see the difference?

Edited by Straggler, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 161 by Faith, posted 07-08-2013 2:33 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
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