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Author Topic:   Is it egotistical to think that a God would die for you?
rueh
Member (Idle past 3662 days)
Posts: 382
From: universal city tx
Joined: 03-03-2008


Message 74 of 169 (701955)
06-28-2013 10:33 AM
Reply to: Message 72 by ICANT
06-28-2013 2:01 AM


Re: Original Sin?
Goodmorning ICANT
You say that the first created man and women in Genesis 1 (who it never specifically names Adam and Eve) did not eat of the tree, were never commanded to eat from the tree and are the characters who in Genesis 5 go on to live named as Adam and Eve and beget all their sons and daughters. Yet the man and women in Genesis 2 (who are specifically named Adam and Eve) were the ones to eat the fruit which the man was commanded not to do and then died. Is that a fair synopsis of your argument?
If that is the case then how could the man and women from Genesis 1 be givin the blame and an inherited sinful nature from the actions of the man and women from Genesis 2? In your example of a farm house you only have 1 man who disobeys. Inorder for it to acuratly portray your position you need 2 people in your example. 1 person who is never given a command to enter the room and another who is commanded not to enter the room. Then when the 2nd man disobeys he is killed and the first man thrown out for actions he had no part in.
In other words if the Adam from Genesis 5 is the the man from Genesis 1, then he is not at fault for the actions of Adam from Genesis 2.

'Qui non intelligit, aut taceat, aut discat'
The mind is like a parachute. It only works when it is open.-FZ
The industrial revolution, flipped a bitch on evolution.-NOFX
It takes all kinds to make a mess- Benjamin Hoff

This message is a reply to:
 Message 72 by ICANT, posted 06-28-2013 2:01 AM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 75 by ICANT, posted 06-28-2013 12:35 PM rueh has replied

  
rueh
Member (Idle past 3662 days)
Posts: 382
From: universal city tx
Joined: 03-03-2008


Message 79 of 169 (701995)
06-28-2013 4:24 PM
Reply to: Message 75 by ICANT
06-28-2013 12:35 PM


Re: Original Sin?
Ok so Genesis 1 God creates "Mankind" they do not eat from the tree of knowledge. Genesis 2 God creates Adam and then creates a women from Adam who Adam names Eve. Correct?
It is the Genesis 2 Adam and Eve who eat the forbidden fruit and who you say die instantly? I'm still following you right?
If that is the case then how can Adam and Eve be in Genesis 5 to sire Cain, Able, Seth and all the other offspring? Also, how is it that the Genesis 1 "Mankind" are suffering from the consequences of Genesis 2's Adam. Who is supposedly dead even though it talks about his offspring in Genesis 4 and 5? God says nothing to the Genesis 2 Adam about sin entering the world or a seperation from God for all of the Genesis 1 "Mankind". Only that when you eat from it you will certainly die.
Let's look at your example again
ICANT writes:
I have a ranch that has a beautiful 5 bedroom house on it. I invite you to come to live on my ranch. Everything is supplied for you and all you have to do is look after my ranch. But there is one stipulation to the deal. There is one of the bedrooms that has a sign on the door stating if you open this door you will be expelled from the ranch.
You enjoy the ranch but one day you look at that door and the curiosity gets the best of you and you just have to open the door that you were forbidden to open. When you open the door you see a beautiful room so you close the door. You think no one will ever know you opened that door.
But about an hour later a big moving van pulls up to the front of the house and several men come in and take all your belongings and put them in the van. They order you into the van and take you and your belongings to the entrance to the ranch unloads all your stuff and tells you are on your own.
Do you or any of your descendants have any right to come live on my ranch?
The only way you are any of your descendants would ever be able to live on my ranch would be if I made a deal with you or your descendants.
What I was trying to explain is that your analogy is not synonymous with the two Genesis tales. If it was you would need 2 people. One who comes first who doesn't live in the house and no instructions are given to and the second who comes later and are told not to open a certain room or else he will die. Now curiousity gets the better of the second person. He opens the room and when the transgression is found out they are instead expelled instead of killed and who go on to live a full life with many kids for hundreds of years. The first person though has no chance now of being able to go to the house nor are any of his descendants able to go to the house because the second person broke a rule.

'Qui non intelligit, aut taceat, aut discat'
The mind is like a parachute. It only works when it is open.-FZ
The industrial revolution, flipped a bitch on evolution.-NOFX
It takes all kinds to make a mess- Benjamin Hoff

This message is a reply to:
 Message 75 by ICANT, posted 06-28-2013 12:35 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 80 by ICANT, posted 06-28-2013 7:53 PM rueh has replied

  
rueh
Member (Idle past 3662 days)
Posts: 382
From: universal city tx
Joined: 03-03-2008


Message 92 of 169 (702091)
07-01-2013 9:45 AM
Reply to: Message 80 by ICANT
06-28-2013 7:53 PM


Re: Original Sin?
ICANT writes:
Neither was created, they were made.
Now your just being silly. Created and made are synonymous.
ICANT writes:
Yes it talks about the children of the man formed from the dust of the ground in Genesis chapter 4.
But the generations beginning in Genesis 5:1 are of the mankind that was created in the image/likeness of God in Genesis 1:27 not the man formed from the dust of the ground in Genesis 2:7.
How is that possible when the Genesis 4 Adam and Eve are said to give birth to Seth who begets Enosh
Genesis 4 writes:
25 Adam made love to his wife again, and she gave birth to a son and named him Seth,[h] saying, God has granted me another child in place of Abel, since Cain killed him. 26 Seth also had a son, and he named him Enosh.
And Genesis 5 has Adam and Eve who have a son named Seth who begets Enosh
Genesis 5 writes:
3 When Adam had lived 130 years, he had a son in his own likeness, in his own image; and he named him Seth. 4 After Seth was born, Adam lived 800 years and had other sons and daughters. 5 Altogether, Adam lived a total of 930 years, and then he died.
6 When Seth had lived 105 years, he became the father of Enosh. 7 After he became the father of Enosh, Seth lived 807 years and had other sons and daughters. 8 Altogether, Seth lived a total of 912 years, and then he died.
Clearly Genesis 4 and 5 Adam and Eve are the same people.
A plain reading of the text shows that if the Genesis 5 Adam and Eve are the Genesis 1 Adam (as you state they are) then the Genesis 4 Adam and Eve are the Genesis 5 Adam and Eve. That they did not die the same day they ate the fruit and that the continued to live on and beget the generations of Adam in Genesis 5. Any other view is just mental gymnastics inorder to remove a blatant contradiction from what in the story God says will happen to what the story says actually happened.

'Qui non intelligit, aut taceat, aut discat'
The mind is like a parachute. It only works when it is open.-FZ
The industrial revolution, flipped a bitch on evolution.-NOFX
It takes all kinds to make a mess- Benjamin Hoff

This message is a reply to:
 Message 80 by ICANT, posted 06-28-2013 7:53 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 93 by ICANT, posted 07-01-2013 2:37 PM rueh has replied

  
rueh
Member (Idle past 3662 days)
Posts: 382
From: universal city tx
Joined: 03-03-2008


Message 94 of 169 (702112)
07-01-2013 3:09 PM
Reply to: Message 93 by ICANT
07-01-2013 2:37 PM


Re: Original Sin?
ICANT writes:
According to the Lexicons and modern Dictionaries the two words are not synonymous.
If you disagree please present your argumentation refuting what the Lexicons and dictionaries say.
Here you go. Thesaurus.com
Main Entry: create  [kree-eyt] Show IPA/kriˈeɪt/ Show Spelled
Part of Speech: verb
Definition: develop in mind or physically
Synonyms: actualize, author, beget, bring into being, bring into existence, bring to pass, build, cause to be, coin, compose, conceive, concoct, constitute, construct, contrive, design, devise, discover, dream up, effect, erect, establish, fabricate, fashion, father, forge, form, formulate, found, generate, give birth to, give life to, hatch, imagine, initiate, institute, invent, invest, make, occasion, organize, originate, parent, perform, plan, procreate, produce, rear, set up, shape, sire, spawn, start
Create=Made
ICANT writes:
As I stated in the post you are replying too, it makes no difference whether they had a son called Seth or not, He did not exist at Genesis 1:2 as there was no life on earth. He would have been born in the DAY the LORD GOD created the heavens and the earth which took place in Genesis 1:1.
But regardless of what mankind (including me) believes and accepts they can not change what the text says as it is already written down in black and white.
Genesis 3 writes:
21 The Lord God made garments of skin for Adam and his wife and clothed them. 22 And the Lord God said, The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever. 23 So the Lord God banished him from the Garden of Eden to work the ground from which he had been taken. 24 After he drove the man out, he placed on the east side[e] of the Garden of Eden cherubim and a flaming sword flashing back and forth to guard the way to the tree of life.
Note that even in Genesis 3 the man did not die. Only banished to work the ground.
Genesis 4 writes:
4 Adam[a] made love to his wife Eve, and she became pregnant and gave birth to Cain. She said, With the help of the Lord I have brought forth[c] a man. 2 Later she gave birth to his brother Abel.
Same man, still not dead begetting Cain and Able.
Genesis 4 writes:
25 Adam made love to his wife again, and she gave birth to a son and named him Seth,[h] saying, God has granted me another child in place of Abel, since Cain killed him. 26 Seth also had a son, and he named him Enosh.
Same man, still not dead begetting Seth.
Genesis 5 writes:
3 When Adam had lived 130 years, he had a son in his own likeness, in his own image; and he named him Seth. 4 After Seth was born, Adam lived 800 years and had other sons and daughters. 5 Altogether, Adam lived a total of 930 years, and then he died.
Clearly the same man begetting Seth

'Qui non intelligit, aut taceat, aut discat'
The mind is like a parachute. It only works when it is open.-FZ
The industrial revolution, flipped a bitch on evolution.-NOFX
It takes all kinds to make a mess- Benjamin Hoff

This message is a reply to:
 Message 93 by ICANT, posted 07-01-2013 2:37 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 96 by New Cat's Eye, posted 07-01-2013 4:10 PM rueh has not replied
 Message 97 by ICANT, posted 07-01-2013 5:16 PM rueh has not replied

  
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