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Author Topic:   Semiotic argument for ID
Taq
Member
Posts: 8519
Joined: 03-06-2009


Message 76 of 223 (724994)
04-23-2014 11:28 AM
Reply to: Message 75 by Ed67
04-23-2014 11:27 AM


Re: Articles of Faith
You don't understand. It doesn't require faith to test a hypothesis, it requires faith to BELIEVE a hypothesis is true without confirmation.

Who here has professed such a faith based belief?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 75 by Ed67, posted 04-23-2014 11:27 AM Ed67 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 80 by Ed67, posted 04-23-2014 11:35 AM Taq has replied

  
Ed67
Member (Idle past 2568 days)
Posts: 159
Joined: 04-14-2014


Message 77 of 223 (724995)
04-23-2014 11:29 AM
Reply to: Message 74 by PaulK
04-23-2014 11:25 AM


Re: Articles of Faith
PaulK writes:

Well, I tried to give you the benefit of the doubt but you had to roll out the same old lie anyway. Too bad.

Assertons, assertions...

Still, no rational responses. C'mon gang, you can do better than this!

Edited by Ed67, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 74 by PaulK, posted 04-23-2014 11:25 AM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 78 by Taq, posted 04-23-2014 11:31 AM Ed67 has taken no action
 Message 79 by PaulK, posted 04-23-2014 11:34 AM Ed67 has replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 8519
Joined: 03-06-2009


Message 78 of 223 (724996)
04-23-2014 11:31 AM
Reply to: Message 77 by Ed67
04-23-2014 11:29 AM


Re: Articles of Faith
Still, no rational responses. C'mon gang, you can do better than this!

Exactly what do you want a response to?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 77 by Ed67, posted 04-23-2014 11:29 AM Ed67 has taken no action

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17167
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 3.6


(2)
Message 79 of 223 (724997)
04-23-2014 11:34 AM
Reply to: Message 77 by Ed67
04-23-2014 11:29 AM


Re: Articles of Faith
quote:

Still, no rational responses. C'mon gang, you can do better than this!

In that case, the rational response is: DO NOT FEED THE TROLL.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 77 by Ed67, posted 04-23-2014 11:29 AM Ed67 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 85 by Ed67, posted 04-23-2014 12:04 PM PaulK has taken no action

  
Ed67
Member (Idle past 2568 days)
Posts: 159
Joined: 04-14-2014


Message 80 of 223 (724998)
04-23-2014 11:35 AM
Reply to: Message 76 by Taq
04-23-2014 11:28 AM


Re: Articles of Faith
Taq writes:

Who here has professed such a faith based belief?

Here's a ready example:

Taq writes:

The combinations of chemicals that did not result in reproduction WERE quickly swamped by combinations of chemicals that did...

Your stated belief that this DID happen, rather than 'could have' happened, demonstrates your gullible FAITH in a process that has not been demonstrated.

Edited by Ed67, : No reason given.

Edited by Ed67, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 76 by Taq, posted 04-23-2014 11:28 AM Taq has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 82 by Taq, posted 04-23-2014 11:39 AM Ed67 has replied

  
Tempe 12ft Chicken
Member (Idle past 1029 days)
Posts: 438
From: Tempe, Az.
Joined: 10-25-2012


(1)
Message 81 of 223 (725001)
04-23-2014 11:38 AM
Reply to: Message 71 by Ed67
04-23-2014 10:58 AM


Re: Articles of Faith
Ed67 writes:

So we've established that belief in abiogenesis requires faith in the unseen and unproven, just as belief in a creator does. Perhaps more, but that's a subjective matter

Not at all, plus belief is not the correct word anyway. Currently the understanding in science is that we do not know how abiogenesis happened. There are some hypotheses that are being worked on, some that have been mentioned in this thread such as the RNA World Hypothesis, but none that can be elevated to the level of theory.

Trusting that it should be a naturalistic explanation is not a matter of faith, as you are trying to state, but a reasoned position based upon previous evidence. With individuals consistently looking for evidence of deitistic intervention, we always seem to come back with natural explanations so it makes sense to look for explanations for this phenomenon based in nature as well. This does not mean to close your mind to other possibilities, but simply the existence of a pattern that we "can call a code" is not enough to state intelligence must be behind it. That requires a far more illogical leap in reasoning than "all previous explanations in the natural world have involved natural forces, thus natural forces should be what we search for first." Human beings are known for seeing patterns where none exist, so taking a naturally occuring chemical reaction and referring to it as a code seems to fit neatly in human psychology.

Finally, in the two threads I have already read that you have participated in I have noticed that you demand evidence from your opponents in the debate, yet your positions are not based on evidence, but simply on what you have heard. Such as the messages in the "Is There a legitimate argument for Design" thread:

Message 135

Ed67 writes:

ok I'm too lazy to read through this thread, but we'll see about that.

Where you are presented with the concept that the evidence you are looking for was already discussed earlier in the thread you came late to and this was your response? No need to present evidence when the individual is already stating that they are too lazy to read the evidence that has already been presented. As much fun as lecturing to a brick wall is many of us don't trust the integrity of the individual asking for evidence to actually research the evidence we post. Why is that? Because of previous evidence, so flatly saying you are too lazy to read is the sign of someone who is just going to dig in their heels and not appreciate the opportunity to actually learn.

Another example of your Excellent evidence gathering and debate skillz:

Message 128

Ed67 writes:

How can you guys honestly account for that happening in a completely non-intelligent way? There's more software packed into the nucleus of a cell than, well, I don't know. But lots.

Ahhhhhh......The classic science amount of Lots of information. Yes, DNA has a lot of base pairs, but its basic structure is rather simple, which is why you keep hearing opposing arguments of the intelligence of a NaCl crystal structure. It is very organized! You obviously see the design (albeit, if God is a designer of things, then he is a terrible engineer, see: Argument from poor design), but that does not force us to accept your vision as fact. You should initially outline your position and post relevant links that show why your position deserves credence. Once you have actually taken the time to post evidence, then those of us here are more likely to deal with your claims through evidence. If you continue to simply make bald assertions, than as Theo pointed out in the other thread, Christopher Hitchens said it best, "That which can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence."


The theory of evolution by cumulative natural selection is the only theory we know of that is in principle capable of explaining the existence of organized complexity. - Richard Dawkins

Creationists make it sound as though a 'theory' is something you dreamt up after being drunk all night. - Issac Asimov

If you removed all the arteries, veins, & capillaries from a person’s body, and tied them end-to-end…the person will die. - Neil Degrasse Tyson

What would Buddha do? Nothing! What does the Buddhist terrorist do? Goes into the middle of the street, takes the gas, *pfft*, Self-Barbecue. The Christian and the Muslim on either side are yelling, "What the Fuck are you doing?" The Buddhist says, "Making you deal with your shit. - Robin Williams


This message is a reply to:
 Message 71 by Ed67, posted 04-23-2014 10:58 AM Ed67 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 83 by Ed67, posted 04-23-2014 11:54 AM Tempe 12ft Chicken has replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 8519
Joined: 03-06-2009


Message 82 of 223 (725002)
04-23-2014 11:39 AM
Reply to: Message 80 by Ed67
04-23-2014 11:35 AM


Re: Articles of Faith
Your stated belief that this DID happen, rather than 'could have' happened, demonstrates your gullible FAITH in a process that has not been demonstrated.

No, I am explaining what it would look like if it did happen. That is not faith.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 80 by Ed67, posted 04-23-2014 11:35 AM Ed67 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 84 by Ed67, posted 04-23-2014 12:01 PM Taq has replied

  
Ed67
Member (Idle past 2568 days)
Posts: 159
Joined: 04-14-2014


Message 83 of 223 (725005)
04-23-2014 11:54 AM
Reply to: Message 81 by Tempe 12ft Chicken
04-23-2014 11:38 AM


Re: Articles of Faith
T12C writes:

Currently the understanding in science is that WE DO NOT KNOW how abiogenesis happened.


Try being honest and say "We do not know WHETHER abiogenesis happened", and we have a basis for discussion...

T12C writes:

No need to present evidence when the individual is already stating that they are too lazy to read the evidence that has already been presented.

Forgive me, your majesty, if I failed to read through ONE HUNDRED AND THIRTY FOUR POSTS before joining the discussion on another thread. I was just being honest.

You know I'm new to this forum. A little common courtesy would be in order...

But point taken, I've just tried to lay out my position logically so far, I'll get on to the detailed discussion as soon as someone demonstrates the COMMON SENSE necessary to understand my initial basic point about the origin of the 'recipe' for life contained in the DNA/RNA.

Edited by Ed67, : No reason given.

Edited by Ed67, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 81 by Tempe 12ft Chicken, posted 04-23-2014 11:38 AM Tempe 12ft Chicken has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 86 by Theodoric, posted 04-23-2014 12:07 PM Ed67 has taken no action
 Message 87 by Tempe 12ft Chicken, posted 04-23-2014 12:09 PM Ed67 has replied
 Message 88 by Tempe 12ft Chicken, posted 04-23-2014 12:19 PM Ed67 has replied

  
Ed67
Member (Idle past 2568 days)
Posts: 159
Joined: 04-14-2014


Message 84 of 223 (725007)
04-23-2014 12:01 PM
Reply to: Message 82 by Taq
04-23-2014 11:39 AM


Re: Articles of Faith
Taq writes:

No, I am explaining what it would look like if it did happen. That is not faith.

Oh, boy, you got caught with your hand in the cookie jar and chose to deny it.

Get real. You and the gang have a BELIEF that abiogenesis occurred. You demonstrated that by your post.

A little honesty would go a long way here...but it's good entertainment value for a rainy day off, watching you squirm


This message is a reply to:
 Message 82 by Taq, posted 04-23-2014 11:39 AM Taq has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 101 by Taq, posted 04-23-2014 6:17 PM Ed67 has taken no action

  
Ed67
Member (Idle past 2568 days)
Posts: 159
Joined: 04-14-2014


Message 85 of 223 (725008)
04-23-2014 12:04 PM
Reply to: Message 79 by PaulK
04-23-2014 11:34 AM


Re: Articles of Faith
PaulK writes:

In that case, the rational response is: DO NOT FEED THE TROLL.

I noticed you guys are experts in driving dissenters from this forum. Nice try.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 79 by PaulK, posted 04-23-2014 11:34 AM PaulK has taken no action

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 7316
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 86 of 223 (725009)
04-23-2014 12:07 PM
Reply to: Message 83 by Ed67
04-23-2014 11:54 AM


Re: Articles of Faith
A little common courtesy would be in order.

Your lack of self-awareness is astounding. But I guess typical for your ilk.


Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 83 by Ed67, posted 04-23-2014 11:54 AM Ed67 has taken no action

  
Tempe 12ft Chicken
Member (Idle past 1029 days)
Posts: 438
From: Tempe, Az.
Joined: 10-25-2012


Message 87 of 223 (725010)
04-23-2014 12:09 PM
Reply to: Message 83 by Ed67
04-23-2014 11:54 AM


Re: Articles of Faith
I have to stop before reading all of your message to fix your mistake here. We both have abiogenesis happening.

Ed67 writes:

Try being honest and say "We do not know WHETHER abiogenesis happened", and we have a basis for discussion...

I am being honest when I say, "We do not know HOW abiogenesis happened"

We know at one point there was no life on Earth and at a later point there was life...this is abiogenesis. We know for a fact it happened, we differ on HOW it did so. I take the evidence based approach that everything has had a natural explanation to this point, so we should begin research on a natural explanations to determine HOW this could have happened (Microbial Mats, RNA World, Deep Sea Vents, etc...). Hence we have competing hypotheses at this time. Whereas, you take a leap past all past explanations, find a dark spot in our knowledge and simply plug your God into that ignorance. However, your solution has a very poor track record as evidenced by the past uses of the God of the Gaps argument.

Now, the problem we run into is how to test you idea. So, please present a test that if it came out a certain way would disprove your thoughts that God is responsible for life. What could not be explained by your theory?


The theory of evolution by cumulative natural selection is the only theory we know of that is in principle capable of explaining the existence of organized complexity. - Richard Dawkins

Creationists make it sound as though a 'theory' is something you dreamt up after being drunk all night. - Issac Asimov

If you removed all the arteries, veins, & capillaries from a person’s body, and tied them end-to-end…the person will die. - Neil Degrasse Tyson

What would Buddha do? Nothing! What does the Buddhist terrorist do? Goes into the middle of the street, takes the gas, *pfft*, Self-Barbecue. The Christian and the Muslim on either side are yelling, "What the Fuck are you doing?" The Buddhist says, "Making you deal with your shit. - Robin Williams


This message is a reply to:
 Message 83 by Ed67, posted 04-23-2014 11:54 AM Ed67 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 89 by Ed67, posted 04-23-2014 12:26 PM Tempe 12ft Chicken has replied

  
Tempe 12ft Chicken
Member (Idle past 1029 days)
Posts: 438
From: Tempe, Az.
Joined: 10-25-2012


Message 88 of 223 (725011)
04-23-2014 12:19 PM
Reply to: Message 83 by Ed67
04-23-2014 11:54 AM


Re: Articles of Faith
Ed67 writes:

Forgive me, your majesty, if I failed to read through ONE HUNDRED AND THIRTY FOUR POSTS before joining the discussion on another thread.

Wow! I'm royalty now! Bow down Suckas!!!!!

In all seriousness, I wasn't commenting on the fact that you had not read the earlier comments yet, but rather about the fact that you explicitly stated that you would not read them, being (and I quote), "Too lazy." This is not words that would be spoken by someone who will check the evidence once they have time, rather this shows a person who has their mind set and will not allow evidence to change it, hence in their mind there is no reason to even read the evidence.

By the way:
Welcome to this forum, but if you think that reading through 130 something messages is too much, you may be in the wrong place. We have some threads, such as the Grand Canyon thread with Faith, that have accumulated over 1,000 messages packed with evidence that calls a creator god, and more so the biblical interpretation, in serious doubt. But, you have to open your mind and be willing to read evidence, not deny based upon your preconceived ideas.

I'm willing to consider your idea as long as you are able to produce actual evidence, not "lots of information", "I feel that's", or "I can't see how's". Just seeing patterns is a known phenomenon called Pareidolia, so simply seeing something as a "code" is not a guaranteed sign that a code is actually an apt description.


The theory of evolution by cumulative natural selection is the only theory we know of that is in principle capable of explaining the existence of organized complexity. - Richard Dawkins

Creationists make it sound as though a 'theory' is something you dreamt up after being drunk all night. - Issac Asimov

If you removed all the arteries, veins, & capillaries from a person’s body, and tied them end-to-end…the person will die. - Neil Degrasse Tyson

What would Buddha do? Nothing! What does the Buddhist terrorist do? Goes into the middle of the street, takes the gas, *pfft*, Self-Barbecue. The Christian and the Muslim on either side are yelling, "What the Fuck are you doing?" The Buddhist says, "Making you deal with your shit. - Robin Williams


This message is a reply to:
 Message 83 by Ed67, posted 04-23-2014 11:54 AM Ed67 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 91 by Ed67, posted 04-23-2014 12:34 PM Tempe 12ft Chicken has replied

  
Ed67
Member (Idle past 2568 days)
Posts: 159
Joined: 04-14-2014


Message 89 of 223 (725013)
04-23-2014 12:26 PM
Reply to: Message 87 by Tempe 12ft Chicken
04-23-2014 12:09 PM


Re: Articles of Faith
T12C writes:

I am being honest when I say, "We do not know HOW abiogenesis happened"

Okay, I understand your point and agree that you can reasonably look at it that way if you choose. To avoid confusion in the future I can use the term 'naturalistic biogenesis' to more accurately describe the process that I am disputing.
I see your evidence based approach as reasonable within your constraints of scientific naturalism.
But I see it from a different perspective:

I take the evidence based approach that all complex specified information has been found to have an intelligent source, so we should admit that, whatever the mechanistic details of life's origin, there's a real possibility that the specified 'recipe' included in DNA was designed by an intelligent being.

Edited by Ed67, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 87 by Tempe 12ft Chicken, posted 04-23-2014 12:09 PM Tempe 12ft Chicken has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 90 by New Cat's Eye, posted 04-23-2014 12:30 PM Ed67 has taken no action
 Message 92 by Tempe 12ft Chicken, posted 04-23-2014 12:36 PM Ed67 has taken no action
 Message 98 by JonF, posted 04-23-2014 2:41 PM Ed67 has taken no action
 Message 99 by Dr Adequate, posted 04-23-2014 2:42 PM Ed67 has replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 90 of 223 (725014)
04-23-2014 12:30 PM
Reply to: Message 89 by Ed67
04-23-2014 12:26 PM


Re: Articles of Faith
all complex specified information has been found to have an intelligent source

DNA isn't specified.

so we should admit that, whatever the mechanistic details of life's origin, there's a real possibility that the specified 'recipe' included in DNA was designed by an intelligent being.

Nobody doubts the possibility. What you are being told is that you do not have any evidence for this designer.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 89 by Ed67, posted 04-23-2014 12:26 PM Ed67 has taken no action

  
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