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Author Topic:   Question for creationists: Why would you rather believe in a small God?
Tempe 12ft Chicken
Member (Idle past 19 days)
Posts: 438
From: Tempe, Az.
Joined: 10-25-2012


Message 270 of 301 (706046)
09-05-2013 12:33 PM
Reply to: Message 268 by Alias
09-05-2013 11:33 AM


Re: Free Agency and Time to do what is RIGHT!
First off, if the God you are describing is real, I personally hope that I am one of those that is marked for oblivion instead of eternity with an evil deity such as you describe....now onto your points.

You seem to be accepting of the two premises that Stile has already laid out and that is:
1. If God is all powerful, he has the ability to stop the rapist from attacking the child.
2. If God is all loving, he would want to protect the child from the pain and suffering that would be inflicted by the actions the rapist is attempting to take.

However, you keep trying to state that:

Alias writes:

You forgot the ALL KNOWING (and creator god) clause.

So, let's add in this problem as well. So, God is all knowing, all powerful, and all loving? Correct, this is your assertion? So in this case:

1. If God is all knowing, then he would be aware that he had created an individual who was going to rape this child. This means that it created this human being with foreknowledge of the pain and suffering that would be inflicted upon an innocent child.

2. If God is all powerful, then it would be able to create an individual with free actions, that does not have the desire to harm and ruin the life of an innocent child...all-powerful=can do anything, correct? Why does free will have to give us the option to remove someone else's free will? In other words, God would be capable, being all-powerful, of preventing this atrocity.

3. If God is All-loving, God would want to prevent the rape of an innocent child. Why, then would this all knowing God even create the individual who will then eventually rape the innocent child, simply so that this God can judge him after the act has occurred?

This means that your All-Knowing, All-Powerful, All-Loving God, knowingly created an individual who would destroy another of his creation's free agency through a despicable act. Then, this All-Powerful being chose to not interfere with a rapists free will, so that the rapist could ruin an innocent child's free will...simply so that he/she/it could judge the rapist after death? Why wouldn't an all-loving God simply create an individual who would not rape a child, since after all he/she/it already knows what its creations will choose to do, being all-knowing and all. The idea of an All-Knowing, All-Powerful, All-Loving God is not possible with the condition of the universe we live in. It is not logically consistent.

Now, if you want to believe your God is not logically consistent, then there is nothing I can say to you and I just hope that you don't actually believe that your God simply chooses not to protect innocent children from rape, so that he can protect a rapists free will, just to judge him/her after death even knowing full well what the individual he created will do....All-knowing actually makes the logical consistency of your God even worse!!!

Alias writes:

The only conclusion is not simply an all knowing all powerful all loving creator god does not exist (don't forget all knowing/creator god portions).

You are correct, this is not the only conclusion. However, what you are forgetting is that while many conclusions are possible, the ONLY LOGICAL conclusion is that an All-Knowing, All-Powerful, All-Loving Creator God cannot exist with the current state of affairs.

Stile writes:

Free agency cannot be a gift of love if it results in the rape of an innocent child.

Alias writes:

Yes it is a huge gift of love to be able to do what one feels but also to not be a robot.

I am actually sickened and appalled that this is how you choose to answer this...It is an act of love toward the rapist, but an act of evil to do nothing to protect the child. This is what you want your God to do? I am so glad your God refuses to remove the free agency from those who would do us (especially children) harm, even though he chose to create them knowing full well what they would do....real loving figure you have there.

Alias writes:

As I've pointed out in previous post this is a temporary existence a small existence to test humanity and it comes with certain costs. Whether or not you can accept that point as a reason for children getting raped, people getting shot in the face, children getting shot in the face which I just heard recently on the news, and so on then that is your personal problem.

This line right here actually makes me slightly angry. It is not my personal problem that I cannot see love in the indifference to suffering of your feeble God. Rather, I look for ways in which humanity can protect the weakest among us, something your God would do if it actually loved people. Your All-Loving God wants innocent children to be tested by being raped or shot? Take the rape example, a child who suffers this fate is at risk of becoming that which destroyed his/her free will and innocence, so God's test can actually create another rapist to perpetuate the cycle. Terribly designed test, yet you glibly accept it as something that must happen. Stop attributing it to a deity and let's find a way to fix the problem ourselves....cause your God don't seem to love us enough to do anything.

Alias writes:

I would love to see what you would not do once you have seen god

If it is your version of God that I see, I am definitely going to try and punch him/her/it in the face for allowing all the atrocities that have occurred, all while he/she/it claimed to be all-loving. I would tell him/her/it to look at the lives of those who actually helped people and explain how they are better than he/she/it is. Finally, I would beg never to spend eternity in a realm with a being as evil as the God you portray, I would rather be non-existent or suffer for eternity than dwell with a being who has the ability to stop a child from being raped, but instead considers rape a test for an innocent child.

Alias writes:

However it is secular folk that rape children. I don't believe for a minute that people who fear god would do such a thing. Anyone that does such a thing and claiming to be a theist is not really a theist.

LIES! It is not ONLY secular folk who rape innocent children. I am pretty sure I should not even need to post examples of this, but if you would like, I will gladly take the three minutes it would take to find article after article about what denomination individuals are who have taken the innocence of a child...this is a blatant falsehood and you should retract it immediately. And the fact that you take their religion away does not apply to whether or not they are religious. If a rapist claims he/she is religious, then he/she is religious. You cannot just remove people from your group because it will make your group look better. The individual's claim is to be a theist, who are you to mess with their "Free Agency"?

Alias writes:

No it is love. God is trying to extend its all loving personality even to the rapist ( I would presume before I would presume there is no all loving god) who may not be in the right mind (that the all knowing part of god is aware of) and would not normally do such a thing. Please read my entire post for any other questions. FYI: You also need to remember that not all criminals that have committed crimes are evil they are lot of times just not in the right mind and need to be lead down a better path. You know given a chance to do right. I would hope that your love would be forgiving and try to help these people out. True evil needs TIME (hence the time tidbit) for its face to be shown. IT is not shown in one act of criminal behavior. Remember criminal behavior is not the same thing as evil. Evil is broader and more penetrating than mere criminal behavior. Please do try to love all humanity as much as you can even those with bad behaviors so that we can expose true evil.

It is not love, and anyone who cannot see that is blind to what loving one another actually is. However, I am in agreement that many criminals can be rehabilitated and I believe our country needs to look for better methods, especially in mental health treatment, that can bring about the changes individuals need to live decent, loving lives. A criminal act is not the sign of evil, but should be looked at with honesty. However, creating someone who you know will create a criminal act and then allowing that criminal act to take place, destroying the life of a child, is an evil act. So, as you stated, "True Evil needs time". Well, your God has had plenty of time to perfect it, and he/she/it seems to be a pretty solid picture of what evil is at this time.


The theory of evolution by cumulative natural selection is the only theory we know of that is in principle capable of explaining the existence of organized complexity. - Richard Dawkins

Creationists make it sound as though a 'theory' is something you dreamt up after being drunk all night. - Issac Asimov

If you removed all the arteries, veins, & capillaries from a person’s body, and tied them end-to-end…the person will die. - Neil Degrasse Tyson

What would Buddha do? Nothing! What does the Buddhist terrorist do? Goes into the middle of the street, takes the gas, *pfft*, Self-Barbecue. The Christian and the Muslim on either side are yelling, "What the Fuck are you doing?" The Buddhist says, "Making you deal with your shit. - Robin Williams


This message is a reply to:
 Message 268 by Alias, posted 09-05-2013 11:33 AM Alias has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 271 by Alias, posted 09-05-2013 1:40 PM Tempe 12ft Chicken has responded

  
Tempe 12ft Chicken
Member (Idle past 19 days)
Posts: 438
From: Tempe, Az.
Joined: 10-25-2012


Message 274 of 301 (706057)
09-05-2013 3:15 PM
Reply to: Message 271 by Alias
09-05-2013 1:40 PM


Re: Free Agency and Time to do what is RIGHT!
Fine, I will quote every bit you wrote on everything, even though most of it was simply rationalization of your points, while I simply tried to pick out the thesis of each statement. Maybe I was incorrect, but trust me, we are going to go through each and every one of your points now, from both this message and the previous. I do not want to misquote you, I was just trying to cut down on the amount of space taken up by the post...but, oh well.....here comes a super long post, then.

Starting with point number 1:

Alias writes:

1.) I believe that god created the processes that lead up to that child being created. I don't believe that god created that child. I don't believe the bible states this in any sense either so I am not sure where you are getting that information from. Seems like you are spinning that way to suit your personal needs.

All-Knowing=Knowing everything. Even if natural processes are how human beings came about in your scenario, your God still knows that a specific process will ultimately end in the creation of a rapist that will destroy the innocence of a child. Prior to birth of the rapist, your God could have known which evolutionary line would lead to the rapist and snipped that line at any point, he knew what would happen and allowed it to occur. However, he chooses to not do so which shows a lack of love for the child, while simultaneously showing love to the rapist by allowing him/her Free Agency. Either a created rapist or a created through God's natural process rapist, your God is ultimately responsible because he/she/it would have foreknowledge of the results of his cosmic experiment. In other words, he knows from the beginning about every rapist and the decisions they will make to rape...yet allows it. Again, if that's loving us, it is logically inconsistent.

Now, onto point number 2:

Alias writes:

2.) Right I agree. Two points. 1.) God did create it in the beginning. Remember they were deceived a bit and that is a HUGE piece here that is not being mentioned by you. 2.) ALSO lets presume he didn't create that in the beginning; If god created beings that didn't have a specific capacity those beings would not be truly free. Also please do remember the time line deal I've mentioned in previous posts about god interfering with humanity.

They were deceived? Are we bringing the Fall of Mankind into this now as well? Well, guess what the Fall is unimportant to the personage of God. We are not discussing the evils of humanity, a subject I would agree with you on, but rather the fact that your God, with conditions as they are, cannot be All-Knowing, All-Powerful, and All-Loving all that same time. It is not logically consistent...sometimes he is all-knowing, but allowing a child to be raped, which is not loving. Sometimes, he is all-loving such as giving humans Free Agency, but not all-powerful because he would have known the acts that he would have to judge in advance and could have avoided the pain and suffering in the first place. There is a logical inconsistency that exists that can't be avoided simply by saying, "Well, God knows more than we do." Passing the buck to an unevidenced deity is not logical.

Now, point number 3, you claimed was answer by point 1...but the main point in three was that God allows someone to live already knowing the crimes they will commit. He could avoid the suffering the innocent child will feel simply by bringing judgment before the crime...after all, unlike us, he already knows what will be done, right? Rather, he chooses to allow the crime, knowing full well all damage that will be done. This does not portray a loving individual toward anyone except the rapist and is a terrible example of how to love someone.

Alias writes:

This means that god created beings, initially, that fit its design to be truly free. And in time those that use that free will to do evil will be judged when the time is right according to that all knowing god all powerful all loving creator god. The rest of your point is moot.

So, an all-powerful, all-knowing, all-loving God, created beings (through his planned natural processes) to be free...."All-knowing" full well that many humans would use that freedom to harm others...but even knowing that these terrible tragedies would happen, went ahead with the plan anyway? Why would this God not rethink his plan? Perhaps put in some system of balances that would allow for maximum freedom, with minimum pain. Unless, of course he is not all-knowing, all-powerful, and all-loving.

BTW, not against the idea that a God exists (although, currently I have no evidence for it), but the God you describe is still not logically consistent.

Now, onto the next point:

Based on your limited thought and perspective.

No, based on the only level of thought and perspective we are capable of, which is logical and rational thought. Again, if you want your God to be irrational and illogical, feel free. However, don't feel piled upon when we point out how your God is inconsistent with the facts that we observe in the world. After all, with every point we have brought up, you have had to hand-wave it away because of some unevidenced proposition, such as Free Agency, simply because your God does not fit with the logical actions of a rational, all-knowing, all-powerful, all-loving being. No, God didn't want the innocent child to get raped, he just had to let it happen because he could not interfere with the rapists' free agency. But, he's got no problem with the rapist removing the child's free agency...really, Alias?

Next Point:

Stile writes:

Free agency cannot be a gift of love if it results in the rape of an innocent child.

Alias writes:

Yes it is a huge gift of love to be able to do what one feels but also to not be a robot. In my mind I think of a god that is giving me the chance to do what is right without it controlling me. It is about the heart of humanity not the heart of god (we are being tested). IT is a test (to reward with eternity). Those that choose to do evil will probably be blotted out from existence along with all evil (all powerful all knowing all loving creator god).

12ft writes:

I am actually sickened and appalled that this is how you choose to answer this...It is an act of love toward the rapist, but an act of evil to do nothing to protect the child. This is what you want your God to do? I am so glad your God refuses to remove the free agency from those who would do us (especially children) harm, even though he chose to create them knowing full well what they would do....real loving figure you have there.

There you go, quoted in its entirety.

So, your statement reads that free agency is a gift of love and that because of that an all-loving individual should allow a child to be raped. You are happy with future judgment, but that does not show love. That still allows the child to be raped! How on Earth can you not see this. In your scenario, your God is showing love to the rapist by refusing to remove his free agency (Sure, he'll punish him/her after the fact of what God already knew he/she would do), but is showing a lack of love to the child, who has to suffer the rape, plus the loss of his/her free agency, whilst the rapist gets to keep his free agency. I would like a clear and concise way that allowing this to happen is showing love to the innocent child?!?

Also, in your response to what you claimed was a quote mine rather than just pointing out your thesis and proceeding, you stated (Don't worry, I'll include it all):

Alias writes:

You didn't actually quote what I said correctly, you hand picked it out and tried to manipulate what was actually said. I was saying that it is a gift of love to have free agency but people are evil and use it incorrectly. IF you put it in the correct context you would be being a good person, apparently you are not a good person. You like to take what people say out of context and make them look bad. FYI: This is evil. Deception is evil. If you continue this practice in our conversation I will not respond to you any anyone reading this post be aware.

First off, you have no idea who I am, and you have zero right to call me not a good person. I have made no claims against you, but rather against the God you are putting up for discussion. So, let's keep the discussion on the topic and avoid talking about one another in a negative fashion. (And trust me, with your statements in this thread, I am holding a lot back) In the correct context, I have already shown that your statement shows love to a rapist, but not to the child who had his free agency removed. In the scenario, your God cared more that he did not intervene, rather than ensure the child's free agency and not the rapist's. In other words, your god chose the rapist. How is this all-loving?

Also, at the end of your statement above, you put:

Alias writes:

FYI: This is evil. Deception is evil. If you continue this practice in our conversation I will not respond to you any anyone reading this post be aware.

(quoted with the full quote above as well, not quote mined)

However, even you stated that evil takes time to spot, not that you can blatantly charge another person with it (such as Criminal activity not being evil). So, lets leave calling one another evil out of this discussion as well, okay? After all, this thread is about how the only logically possible God is a smaller version than that portrayed by religions.

Next point, which you claimed I quote-mined:

Alias writes:

Please don't forget the "all knowing god". Hence all powerful all knowing and all loving creator god. Do not make this about me it is about you failing to see the BIG picture. Children getting rapped will have justice served (in time because again god is not a hypocrite and we have free agency plus god is all knowing). ALSO let me remind you how small our existence is in the scheme of eternity. As I've pointed out in previous post this is a temporary existence a small existence to test humanity and it comes with certain costs. Whether or not you can accept that point as a reason for children getting raped, people getting shot in the face, children getting shot in the face which I just heard recently on the news, and so on then that is your personal problem. In my mind I assign meaning and reason to those things because they are terrible and that is they will have justice served by god in the end and get to be rewarded with eternal life by that god who is all knowing all powerful all loving creator god. Those that have done evil will be completely blotted out from existence (if I understand correctly but if not they will be in torment for a very very long time) and justice will be served. Another point if god still does not blot out evil in my full opinion god is trying to love those that have done evil by giving them yet another chance.... I don't know that this will take place but probably will since god is all knowing all loving all powerful creator god.

12ft writes:

This line right here actually makes me slightly angry. It is not my personal problem that I cannot see love in the indifference to suffering of your feeble God. Rather, I look for ways in which humanity can protect the weakest among us, something your God would do if it actually loved people. Your All-Loving God wants innocent children to be tested by being raped or shot? Take the rape example, a child who suffers this fate is at risk of becoming that which destroyed his/her free will and innocence, so God's test can actually create another rapist to perpetuate the cycle. Terribly designed test, yet you glibly accept it as something that must happen. Stop attributing it to a deity and let's find a way to fix the problem ourselves....cause your God don't seem to love us enough to do anything.

Alias writes:

It is your personal problem. I was pointing out the acceptance of gods will not your thought that you try to look for ways to help people. IF you are actually trying to help people than you would quote me correctly but yet again you're not keeping what I said in the right context. Don't be evil. IT is clear I was talking about god helping people and acceptance of his methods. I was not talking about the acceptance of what people do and their methods. What people do that shows them to be good people is good in gods eyes i'm sure.

You are missing the entire point. Justice in time is what we as humans can offer a child who is raped. We can catch the criminal, put him/her on trial and ensure that the child can receive the best justice that we can give. God, on the other hand, according to you is All-Powerful (can do anything), All-knowing (knows the child is going to be raped), and All-Loving (Yet, for some reason this one you have put onto giving the rapist free agency, instead of protecting the innocent child), yet he does nothing, simply as you put it to "avoid being a hypocrite". Your All-Loving God is more concerned with being a hypocrite toward a rapist then with protecting an innocent child from being raped, and you call this All-Loving? I cannot, nor will I, lower my standards of what love means to even begin to entertain that idea.

Also, you have yet to have any answer to the last point that I made, so I would like a response, please (since i am being so nice as to ensure I don't misquote you):

12ft writes:

Your All-Loving God wants innocent children to be tested by being raped or shot? Take the rape example, a child who suffers this fate is at risk of becoming that which destroyed his/her free will and innocence, so God's test can actually create another rapist to perpetuate the cycle. Terribly designed test, yet you glibly accept it as something that must happen. Stop attributing it to a deity and let's find a way to fix the problem ourselves....cause your God don't seem to love us enough to do anything.

My question is at the end there, although worded as a statement. Let me reword as a question for you:

Why don't we stop attributing things to a logically inconsistent deity and find a way to fix these problems ourselves? Because, I am pretty sure that for the most part, if people saw a child getting raped, they would damn sure try and stop it. Something that your God cannot do without being a hypocrite toward a rapist.

Alias writes:

I am trying to build a model for a all powerful all loving all knowing creator god and how it is possible and logical that it does exist and this is how it exists... Please remember that its ways and thoughts would be above our ways and thoughts when you conclude. There would be a lot that I would not understand within that context as I am human.

You are trying, however you are failing miserably at portraying anything but a God who either:

A. Doesn't love us, but is able to be all powerful and all-knowing

B. Loves us, knows what will happen, but is powerless to stop it

C. Loves us, is powerful enough to stop things, but is unaware of what will happen.

or

D. A Loving, Powerful, Knowing God. (Notice the lack of All before all of those words)

When you try to combine all three things, All-Loving, All-Powerful, All-Knowing, the logic simply breaks down based solely upon the observations of the world around us. I could at least picture any of the options I gave you, although i would not be convinced of their existence without evidence to support the hypothesis. However, your option is logically inconsistent because it requires God to be indifferent to suffering (allowing a child to be raped, knowing full well it will happen) which removes all-loving, or not able to stop it (By God not being able to be a hypocrite, God is not powerful enough to stop suffering), which removes all-powerful, or has no idea what is going on and so his power and love can't be brought to bear, so not all-knowing. Combining all three of those ideas with observation of the REAL world shows just how illogical your god is.

Caught you in another lie in my next point, so let's move on:

Alias writes:

I called free agency a act of gods love, clearly you are blind. However I would conclude that it is secular folk that rape children. I don't believe for a minute that people who fear god would do such a thing. Anyone that does such a thing and claiming to be a theist is not really a theist. Your argument that disrespects god fearing people is failing. As for your joke, it shows your actual thoughts. Typically jokes show the comedians comical sense. Would you please think of the children (seriously)? Why would you joke about such a thing!

12ft writes:

LIES! It is not ONLY secular folk who rape innocent children. I am pretty sure I should not even need to post examples of this, but if you would like, I will gladly take the three minutes it would take to find article after article about what denomination individuals are who have taken the innocence of a child...this is a blatant falsehood and you should retract it immediately. And the fact that you take their religion away does not apply to whether or not they are religious. If a rapist claims he/she is religious, then he/she is religious. You cannot just remove people from your group because it will make your group look better. The individual's claim is to be a theist, who are you to mess with their "Free Agency"?

Alias writes:

No not really. I think it would be pretty stupid if a person that knew gods power and still yet chose to do evil. This is why I am saying it is secular individuals that commit evil most of the time because it is logical. 1+1 = 2. I am also saying that if there are theists out there that choose to do EVIL they are NOT theists of any kind. This is the way I spin it anyway. I do realize that there people that I see as evil/or that are doing a lot of evil currently such as islamic radicals/fascists but I don't know that they are actually god fearing or just blind. This I am just not sure about.

The lie you are caught in is between your first statement of:

"However I would conclude that it is secular folk that rape children."

When in the next comment, you state:

"This is why I am saying it is secular individuals that commit evil most of the time because it is logical."

Where was the most of the time in the first mention of this? You attempted to shovel all blame onto those who are secular, plus attempted to remove individuals from your group because you choose for them that they are not religious. Then, when it was mentioned you tried to hide the fact by including the word most in your comment. First, I still demand you officially retract your statement from before of "It is secular folk who rape children" because it is hateful and not factual. Also, it is not your choice whether or not a person is religious, especially considering that they have Free agency according to you.

So, while I thought that finding examples of this was redundant and asinine, I guess here we go, into the hall of religious child rapists:

One Story

Two Stories

Three Stories

Do I need to keep going. And remember, these people have free agency to say and believe what they want...They say they are religious, they are definitely not secular. Sorry, but thems the breaks. You do not get to force them to be secular so that your group looks better. That is deception as well, to return to your earlier mention of it.

Alias writes:

Then we disagree on what love is... Glad we agree on the other part. Oh and remember freedom is freedom, if you create beings that are limited they are not free (mentally of course cus we don't have wings, etc)

But, we are not mentally free. There are impositions of morality, even upon a person who is an atheist such as myself. Now, I am not sure if it is your claim, but I have heard, many times, that these morals are an imprint from God in our spirit. If this is your claim (which you will have to clarify), then God has chosen to impede by giving us a moral compass, but not impede to remove the free agency of the rapist in these examples. So, God is choosing to provide limits in one regard (morals imprinted on humanity), but not in another that eventually destroys an innocent child (the rapist).

Again, Alias, I ask, "How on Earth can this be seen as All-Loving"?!?!?!


The theory of evolution by cumulative natural selection is the only theory we know of that is in principle capable of explaining the existence of organized complexity. - Richard Dawkins

Creationists make it sound as though a 'theory' is something you dreamt up after being drunk all night. - Issac Asimov

If you removed all the arteries, veins, & capillaries from a person’s body, and tied them end-to-end…the person will die. - Neil Degrasse Tyson

What would Buddha do? Nothing! What does the Buddhist terrorist do? Goes into the middle of the street, takes the gas, *pfft*, Self-Barbecue. The Christian and the Muslim on either side are yelling, "What the Fuck are you doing?" The Buddhist says, "Making you deal with your shit. - Robin Williams


This message is a reply to:
 Message 271 by Alias, posted 09-05-2013 1:40 PM Alias has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 276 by Alias, posted 09-05-2013 3:43 PM Tempe 12ft Chicken has not yet responded
 Message 281 by Alias, posted 09-05-2013 5:48 PM Tempe 12ft Chicken has not yet responded

  
Tempe 12ft Chicken
Member (Idle past 19 days)
Posts: 438
From: Tempe, Az.
Joined: 10-25-2012


Message 275 of 301 (706058)
09-05-2013 3:18 PM
Reply to: Message 273 by Alias
09-05-2013 3:03 PM


Re: Free Agency and Time to do what is RIGHT!
Alias writes:

What would be the point of making a broken plane that can't fly if you wanted it to fly? This is reality and in it there are limits. It does not quantify to god not being all knowing. If god wanted the plane to fly he has to make it not broken and able to fly. This is logical.

Then he is not All-Powerful? Because, instead he chose to give us free agency, knowing full well (being All-Knowing) what much of humanity would do with it. In other words He could only make a broken plane to try and fly and humanity has to try and fix it. This is the scenario you are describing.


The theory of evolution by cumulative natural selection is the only theory we know of that is in principle capable of explaining the existence of organized complexity. - Richard Dawkins

Creationists make it sound as though a 'theory' is something you dreamt up after being drunk all night. - Issac Asimov

If you removed all the arteries, veins, & capillaries from a person’s body, and tied them end-to-end…the person will die. - Neil Degrasse Tyson

What would Buddha do? Nothing! What does the Buddhist terrorist do? Goes into the middle of the street, takes the gas, *pfft*, Self-Barbecue. The Christian and the Muslim on either side are yelling, "What the Fuck are you doing?" The Buddhist says, "Making you deal with your shit. - Robin Williams


This message is a reply to:
 Message 273 by Alias, posted 09-05-2013 3:03 PM Alias has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 277 by Alias, posted 09-05-2013 3:50 PM Tempe 12ft Chicken has responded
 Message 280 by Theodoric, posted 09-05-2013 5:05 PM Tempe 12ft Chicken has not yet responded

  
Tempe 12ft Chicken
Member (Idle past 19 days)
Posts: 438
From: Tempe, Az.
Joined: 10-25-2012


Message 278 of 301 (706062)
09-05-2013 4:00 PM
Reply to: Message 277 by Alias
09-05-2013 3:50 PM


Re: Free Agency and Time to do what is RIGHT!
Alias writes:

I seem to remember hearing atheists say things like pink bunnies didn't create everything and then they go to compare it to biblical thought... Point: in this reality there are restrictions and god knows them and if god breaks them there is consequences. I was not saying god would create something broken and man would have to fix it. Lol. Reread. And that would not make him less powerful. Lol. It's choice. Fyi: god's ways are higher than our ways. Oh and yes he chose to give us free agency which is loving IMO.

But, my point was that our Free Agency is broken because there are several examples of it being used to create atrocities. I was using your analogy.

Theodoric stated God was not All-Knowing, and you used the plane analogy to show that this is not the correct decision, God knew he should not make a broken plane if he wanted it to fly.

Yet, when he went to make humankind (through natural processes), he installed a free agency that is broken because it allows for these atrocities. So, he either knew it was broken and was not powerful enough to give us a version that would not be broken, and these atrocities would not happen. In this scenario he is All-Knowing, but not All-Powerful.

Or, he was All-Powerful and installed the best he could, but was unaware that the process was broken. In this case he would be All-Powerful, but not All-Knowing.

In either case, we got stuck with a broken system (Free Agency/Plane) and it is up to humanity to fix the problem through increasing our own awareness of a moral society and proper moral actions between one another. Unless, God would want to help, which one would think he would, if he were All-Loving, especially considering the broken system was installed by him.

Edited by Tempe 12ft Chicken, : No reason given.


The theory of evolution by cumulative natural selection is the only theory we know of that is in principle capable of explaining the existence of organized complexity. - Richard Dawkins

Creationists make it sound as though a 'theory' is something you dreamt up after being drunk all night. - Issac Asimov

If you removed all the arteries, veins, & capillaries from a person’s body, and tied them end-to-end…the person will die. - Neil Degrasse Tyson

What would Buddha do? Nothing! What does the Buddhist terrorist do? Goes into the middle of the street, takes the gas, *pfft*, Self-Barbecue. The Christian and the Muslim on either side are yelling, "What the Fuck are you doing?" The Buddhist says, "Making you deal with your shit. - Robin Williams


This message is a reply to:
 Message 277 by Alias, posted 09-05-2013 3:50 PM Alias has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 279 by Alias, posted 09-05-2013 4:27 PM Tempe 12ft Chicken has not yet responded

  
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