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Author | Topic: Question for creationists: Why would you rather believe in a small God? | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Stile Member Posts: 4017 From: Ontario, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 4.6
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You're right. But, really, so is Faith... in a way that doesn't seem to coincide with her main point. Faith is referencing the cheetah's low amount of genetic variation in being a diverse species. This is true. Think of a population... then split that population between 2 factors. Now, kill off all groups except for one. This is what Faith's talking about. Except she's claiming that it's due to evolution... just because the selection process has occurred many, many times. But that part isn't true. It's not due to the evolution process... it's due to the killing-off-of-all-the-others fact. Take humans as the example for the other side of the fence. We've evolved over the same number of "many, many years" as the cheetah. But we are very genetically diverse. This is because nothing is "killing off" all the splits that we've been making.
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Stile Member Posts: 4017 From: Ontario, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 4.6 |
Hello Alias! Don't worry about posting stuff others may have talked about. As long as you put it in your own words, it's worth the post.
Actually, it very well might. If the answer boils down to: "because this is the world we live in" ...then we enter the issue of imagining God to fit our world. Which tends to point to God being from our imagination instead of actually existing.
Actually, He does, if He has the power to do so. Otherwise He's just mean.
Could be. But that would be a very mean test. A mean test is not loving.
Nature does teach morality, it's just not a great one. Same with the Bible... not a particularly great moral system.
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Stile Member Posts: 4017 From: Ontario, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 4.6
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Sorry for the terminology. I didn't mean big as in "physically larger", I meant it in a more general "more powerful" sense. I just took the big/small terminology from the focus of the thread.
Right. This is the point. God may not be loving enough or powerful enough to help us. Therefore, logically-consistent people are forced to believe in a God that is either restricted in power, or doesn't care enough to help us as much as He could.
Not according to the Bible... Any other way around it is just silly. Let's say I create an ant farm. I gather some ants and make sure they breed... if it wasn't for me the ant farm would not exist at all. Why would it be different for God? There's nothing special about God. Even if He is more powerful then us. Even if He did create the universe. Even if He did create mankind... that doesn't give Him any rights to do whatever-the-hell-he-wants and call it "good." I'll punch Him in the nose for being a petulant child for that.
No, it's not like this at all. Parents are very restricted in regards to their "power". Therefore, it's logically consistent for a non-all-powerful parent to make mistakes, and only help out as best they can. Unless you're saying God is only as powerful as a human? Then it makes sense... Puny God, though.
This is very possible.
Sorry, I think you lost me. Brains are capable of teaching us morals. In order to get beyond this... you're going to have to show me how a brain is not-natural.
Have you ever asked what stopped the racism/hitler/crusades and such? Seems to me that you're picking the bad stuff and calling it "from man" but ignoring the good stuff that is just as much from man.
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Stile Member Posts: 4017 From: Ontario, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 4.6 |
Oh, don't worry about that. Even if the message limit is reached, though...there's nothing stopping you from simply starting up another thread, or posting to a similarly-themed one.
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Stile Member Posts: 4017 From: Ontario, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 4.6 |
Evil existing just means that an all-powerful and all-loving God doesn't exist. It's rather simple:
This is not an example about evil. Do you have an example of loving parents that rape their child? This is what God does, if He is all-powerful and all-loving. Because there are children in this existence that get raped and God created this existence.
Respect doesn't come from creation.
The mentor is only respected if he is a good mentor. I'm sorry of all the talk about children being raped. It's just that it does happen in the world, and we are doing the world a very big disservice if we ignore it. Especially when discussing deities and their responsibilities when creating this world. Don't you think that is important?
Very much so.
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Stile Member Posts: 4017 From: Ontario, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 4.6 |
No it's not. Here, I'll show you again:
If this is true... either God is not powerful enough to prevent evil in the temporary existence, or God doesn't love us enough to prevent evil in the temporary existence. It's not very difficult. It's a rather simple concept.
I know. That's what was wrong with it. We're not talking about different forms of love. We're talking about evil. Your example was irrelevant to what we're discussing... unless you're trying to say that one of God's "forms of love" is allowing the rape of innocent children. But that doesn't make any sense at all.
I agree. Let's say you're walking down the road and a rapist sees a child and is about to rape the child. You are not "responsible" but you certainly are evil as you could have easily prevented that child from being raped. If God is all-powerful, He is capable of stopping children from being raped just from wishing it to be so, right? The steps are very simple.
If God has the power of preventing the rape of an innocent child merely by wishing it to be so... yet He doesn't... then God does not deserve respect. Because He's evil.
Take your time.
I'm not very well versed with scripture either. I'm just explaining that an all-powerful, all-loving God is logically impossible when evil such as the rape of innocent children exists. This argument doesn't say I don't believe in God, the argument doesn't stand in the way of God creating mankind. It's only showing that an all-powerful, all-loving God can't possibly exist given the sorts of evil we find here on earth.
The above statement is still perfectly valid for a God that is not all-powerful.
Quite possible, I agree. Perhaps I have just been confused by the words you chose to use? It is one thing to say "God is the most powerful being in existence." If all you meant to say was "God is the most powerful being in existence..." then I agree that my argument about evil's existence preventing an all-powerful, all-loving God's existence does not apply. It's still a true argument, though. We know a few things: Innocent children get raped. This is a fact. Because, if God was powerful enough to stop it, and he wanted to stop it... then it would never have happened... He would have stopped it. Maybe God values the "freedom of personal choice" of a rapist over His love for innocent children's freedom of personal choice? -This would be an evil God
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Stile Member Posts: 4017 From: Ontario, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 4.6 |
It's not an assertion. It's a logical incompatibility: Premise 1 - An all loving God would want to prevent evil Fact of our life: Innocent children are raped. Therefore evil exists. Therefore an all loving, all powerful God does not exist. This is not an assertion, it is what's called "logical thinking."
This very well may be true. Either way, we have a God who is not all powerful, or not all loving.
Free agency cannot be a gift of love if it results in the rape of an innocent child. I find it incredibly strange that I need to explain that to someone. Perhaps you do not fully understand how wonderful love is? Or maybe you don't really understand how evil rape is? Go back to the example I provided. There is a rapist about to rape a child. What do you do? Do you wish the rapist would stop and take away the FREE living agency of the rapist for about an hour? You decide not to wish the rapist to stop. ...and you call this an "all-loving" gift for the child? Preventing the rape doesn't create robots. In fact, allowing the rape creates more of a robot... the free agency of the child is removed for the rest of their life. If God stops the rapist, it only removes the free agency of the rapist for about an hour or so. If God (or you) actually believed that free agency is important... you would be on the side of preventing the rapist. Not allowing it. That's just silly. And pretty evil, too. If you are unable to figure out how allowing the rape of an innocent child is "not an act of love"... I will just hope that you are never left to be responsible of children of any kind, ever. If you become a parent, or if you are a parent... and you think that letting your child get raped will be "an act of love" to preserve your child's free agency... I will personally make sure that the police find your residence and place you behind bars.
The secular folk?
This "gift of free agency" may very well be real. If God is okay with allowing the rapist to remove the child's "gift of free agency", but refuses to simply remove the rapist's "gift of free agency" Himself... then God is not all loving. Obviously God respect the rapist's free agency over that of an innocent child. That's not love. That's evil. And again, even the "gift of FREE living agency" only shows us that God cannot exist as all loving and all powerful.
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Stile Member Posts: 4017 From: Ontario, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 4.6
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This is the only way out of the problem of evil. It hinges on a hope that "maybe God is so smart he can see that child rape is a good, loving thing in the long-run." Of course, any sane person will laugh at this. But, as everyone knows, logical doesn't always mean valid. If you're personally okay with calling child rape an "act of love" because of some vague hope for some unforeseen, unknowable after-death possibility... Then I have a bridge I'd like to sell to you (after I make sure you go to jail) **** I'm not sure if "logical" is the right word here... probably something closer to "only possible way" would be more correct. "Logical", I think... gives the escape hatch too much credit. Edited by Stile, : 'cause I wanted to add something. Edited by Stile, : Screwed up my spelling in my last edit, and now I feel silly 'cause there'll be two edit notifications right beside each other. I don't even like one edit notification in my messages. Ah well... such is the burden I must bear.
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Stile Member Posts: 4017 From: Ontario, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 4.6
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Of course "we" are not going in circles. It's okay, really. I don't expect you to read what's here and simply say "well, I never thought about it that way... I'll have to think this over some more." But you will, you'll remember what's been said here and it will stick in your mind and will crop up in your head whenever you think about an all-powerful, all-knowing, all-loving God. You'll remember that there's something just not right about that, you can't put your finger on it because you don't really want to put your finger on it... you like the idea that such an all-everything being is watching over your shoulder. That, in itself, is a good thing. It's just that I have problem with anyone trying to defend child rape in any way. I'm a bit fussy like that. It irks me to the point of typing out some words and posting them on a message forum on the internet. If you'd care to continue the discussion at any time, or discuss anything else... feel free to post at any time.
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Stile Member Posts: 4017 From: Ontario, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 4.6 |
Hi Alias, glad to see you're not really done. It's an interesting topic (to me, at least) and I'm happy for the chance to talk about it.
You seem to be trying to introduce exceptions for how evil can exist and God can still be all-powerful, all-loving and all-knowing. You first thought maybe God had a plan according to a timeline that we do not understand. You then thought that maybe God is using evil in a loving way... in a way like a parent may teach a child. You then thought that maybe God is doing things in some mysterious way such that evil exists and God remains all-powerful, all-loving and all-knowing. I don't have an issue with you believing in an all-powerful, all-loving, all-knowing God. That's your personal choice, and I hope you find what you're looking for. I simply have an issue if you want to claim that you "know" or "understand" that such a God actually exists. Actually... it's not even really an "issue" I have as it is more a curiosity. You see... if you could actually explain such a concept to me, then I would be able to understand it. It seems to me that it would be a very nice thing to be able to understand. It's just... I'm personally unable to "just believe" in such a concept. It seems like a very important concept, so I need to understand it before I accept it as valid. Kind of like my mortgage. My mortgage is pretty important to me. Without it my family would not have a place to live. So, I won't "just believe" that some bank will give me some mortgage at whatever rate... I need to understand the rate, and the terms and verify it myself... because it's important. To me, the concept of a creator-God (if He exists) is much more important than even my mortgage. Therefore, I need to make sure that people's claims about Him are valid before I "just believe" in them. I'm not trying to trip-you-up, or make you not-believe. Really, my interest here is very selfish. I'm hoping you can explain this concept to me so that I can add it to my "I understand this about God" area of my brain. That area, currently, is rather empty. You also seem to compare believers and atheists a lot.
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