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Author Topic:   Paul Serup Answers Theodoric: Credibility of Authors and Book
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1470 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 1 of 211 (702902)
07-12-2013 1:30 PM


Paul Serup, who wrote the book "Who Killed Abraham Lincoln" posted a reply to Theodoric on a thread where it is off topic, and he's not familiar with the formatting here so I'm moving the exchange to its own thread. Here's part of Theodoric's post which Serup is answering, and Serup's reply follows:
Theodoric writes:
Faith writes:
Paul Serup spent something like twenty years researching his book on Lincoln, Saussy spent ten years on his book.
What a waste because they got it all wrong. They manipulated the info in order to try to support their premise. Sort of like a creationist. I suppose you think there is some sort of conspiracy since no real historian supports them.
Faith writes:
By the way a historian is somebody who has studied the history of a subject, period. If they provide sources and all those books do, some many pages of sources, that's their credentials.
No. That is why they had to self publish. Though history is one of the soft sciences, there is still a process of peer review for scholarly writings. Publishing companies also try to some extent make sure arguments presented stand up to historical review. None of these do.
You obviously have no idea what the word "credentials" means. Your comments are insulting and demeaning to historians that are degreed and have spent years studying the process as well as the subject matter.
Paul Serup replies:
Paul Serup writes:
My name is Paul Serup and I will address a number of statements that Theodoric has made about myself and the book I wrote. Of the fact that my book is self published, you stated, No. That is why they had to self publish. Though history is one of the soft sciences, there is still a process of peer review for scholarly writings. Publishing companies also try to some extent make sure arguments presented stand up to historical review. None of these do.
You do not know me and you do not know why my book was self published. You are ignorant of this, which is a good place to start in regards to what you have said about me and my book, your ignorance.
You say my book is self published. So what? A number of very accomplished authors such a Mark Twain, Margaret Atwood, and Stephen King self published. Authors have done so because they wanted to have more control and they wanted a greater opportunity to participate in the profits from their labours. Does the fact that my book was self published affect the validity of what I said? You assert that this is the case. Henry Holt is a well known publishing company and they published Bill O’Reilly’s recent book on the Lincoln assassination. (Henry Holt & Co. - "Killing Lincoln: The Shocking Assassination that Changed America Forever" by Bill O'Reilly & Martin Dugard). As the Washington Post reported in an 2011 article by Steven Levingston, O'Reilly’s book was reviewed by the personnel at Ford’s Theatre National Historic Site. It was weighed in the balance and found wanting. At the Post article pointed out, O'Reilly’s book suffers from factual errors and a lack of documentation, according to a study conducted by Rae Emerson, the deputy superintendent of Ford’s Theatre National Historic Site, which is a unit of the National Park Service. Emerson’s review recommended that the book not be sold at Ford Theatre’s NPS store. O’Reilly’s book, published by a major publisher, has not been sold there.
My self published book however, was reviewed by this same personnel at Ford’s Theatre National Historic Site and was found to be well documented with footnotes, and approved for sale at Ford Theatre’s NPS store, where it is sold today. Based on what you have stated, you sound like you are not especially well informed. Are you foolish enough however, to think you know more about the Lincoln assassination than the people who work at Ford’s Theatre with the educational and interpretive mission they fulfill at this National Historic Site, the very place the 16th President was assassinated? Steven Levingston’s article was entitled, Bill O’Reilly’s ‘Killing Lincoln’ not for sale at Ford’s Theatre museum bookstore and it pointed out that the premier place to sell a book about the Lincoln assassination is at Ford’s Theatre museum bookstore.
Of myself you state regarding my qualifications, Not a historian. He is an independent researcher". I have not given a great amount of consideration to labels but will now give it some attention since you bring it up. As I mentioned, you stated, Though history is one of the soft sciences, there is still a process of peer review for scholarly writings. Publishing companies also try to some extent make sure arguments presented stand up to historical review. None of these do.
You go on to say in reply to Faith, You obviously have no idea what the word "credentials" means. Your comments are insulting and demeaning to historians that are degreed and have spent years studying the process as well as the subject matter.
Who is a historian in your view? Would someone who has a history degree be a historian? Would a university history professor? How about the chair of the history department of a well known university? Or would a real historian be someone who says things you agree with? How about an editor of a historical journal? How about someone like the man who wrote the Abraham Lincoln Encyclopedia?
Surely Joseph George Jr. would qualify as a historian in your eyes. He wrote a paper which was very critical of Charles Chiniquy, published in the well known Journal of the Illinois State Historical Society, when he was chair of the history department of Villanova University. Are you are aware of it? Never heard of it? Why doesn’t that surprise me? Anyway, I would expect that he would qualify as a historian in your view. A chair of the history department of a well-known university who writes a paper published in a prestigious historical journal critical on someone who was an opponent of the Catholic Church. He took Charles Chiniquy to task for being untrustworthy in regards to what he said about his relationship with Abraham Lincoln and the role the Roman Catholic Church played in his death.
What George wrote has been cited by others to dismiss what Chiniquy said. This is all well and good but when you go about to show that someone is wrong, you better know what you are talking about and get it right. Joseph George however, made a number of errors, some glaring, in what he said. Apparently the editors of the Journal of the Illinois State Historical Society failed to check what George wrote, as did, for example, the man who wrote Abraham Lincoln Encyclopedia?, Mark E. Neely. As I stated in my book,
the only source given for the entry on Charles Chiniquy in the Abraham Lincoln Encyclopedia, by Mark E. Neely was Professor George. Chiniquy was listed as The principal source of allegations that Abraham Lincoln’s assassination was a Jesuit plot.
The sources section of the Abraham Lincoln Encyclopedia noted that Joseph George, Jr.’s ’The Lincoln Writings of Charles P. T. Chiniquy,‘ Journal of the Illinois State Historical Society, LXIX (February 1976), 17-25, is a definitive and interesting refutation of Chiniquy’s claims.
I wrote that It will be shown however, that whatever George accomplished, it definitely wasn’t a refutation of Charles Chiniquy’s allegations. The Yale educated Mark E. Neely won the 1992 Pulitzer Prize for his book, The Fate of Liberty: Abraham Lincoln and Civil Liberties and in 2004, was named the author of one of the three most influential articles in fifty years of civil war history. He was a history professor at several universities. When George’s paper was published, the Journal of the Illinois State Historical Society was a division of the Illinois State Historical Library. I received my copy of February 1976 issue, that contains this paper, from one of the personnel of the I.S.H.L. when I was at the library in Springfield in the early 1990s, doing research on Chiniquy.
Now when you make the kind of blunders that Joseph George made, when you fail to check and catch these errors, then publish what he wrote, when you cite him, again without checking his work, it becomes more difficult to claim to be a historian. If these people can claim to be historians, then I would assert that I have a better claim to be one, as I have not made such mistakes and appear to be the only person who actually did check George’s work. As I said in my book,
Joseph George ended his paper by declaring, Scholars, however, even when tempted to use less sensational passages from Chiniquy’s book, should be wary. There is no evidence to support his claim that he was a close friend of the Sixteenth President’s. This list of Professor George’s errors and research shortcomings, however, should be more than enough to convince all but the truly biased that is it Joseph George‘s work that one should be wary of.
My book contains a review of the mistakes Joseph George made in his paper, as well an analysis and a list of the errors of another three academic, who wrote critically about Chiniquy.
You also said of others, including myself, ...they got it all wrong. They manipulated the info in order to try to support their premise. I manipulated information to try to support my premise according to you. That is quite a statement since you apparently have never had a copy of my book in your hands. Indeed, an absolutely stunning statement if you have never seen a copy.
There is the statement, Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts. Yes indeed facts don’t lie, they are just facts, so I do not understand what you are talking manipulating information. Since I got it all wrong though, you should be able to furnish a number of examples of what you are talking about in regards to this. Ford’s Theatre looked hard to find mistakes in my book and didn’t find any so I look forward to hearing of all the examples you hope to find.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Replies to this message:
 Message 2 by Percy, posted 07-12-2013 3:55 PM Faith has not replied
 Message 16 by Tempe 12ft Chicken, posted 07-13-2013 6:24 PM Faith has not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22492
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 2 of 211 (702908)
07-12-2013 3:55 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Faith
07-12-2013 1:30 PM


Hi Paul,
Self-published books do not usually go through any review, vetting, correction or editorial process, and inability to convince a publisher a book is worth reading is a sure warning sign. Questioning the scholarship behind self-published books is simple common sense.
The blurb at Google books has the publisher saying, "A well-researched and persuasively presented account, Who Killed Abraham Lincoln? is particularly recommended for college library collections." That's quite a recommendation, except that the publisher is...you. Way to go for honesty and transparency.
The other issue seemed to revolve around whether you're a historian. It isn't what you think of yourself that matters, but what others think of you. The important question is who besides you is calling you a historian, and are any of them actual historians. I have opinions and knowledge about history, too, but researching the details and putting my perspectives down in a book wouldn't make me a historian, though I would probably be the most knowledgeable and opinionated person on my block on the subject!
--Percy
Edited by Percy, : Grammar.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Faith, posted 07-12-2013 1:30 PM Faith has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 3 by Jon, posted 07-12-2013 9:10 PM Percy has seen this message but not replied
 Message 7 by Paul Serup, posted 07-13-2013 1:09 PM Percy has replied

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 3 of 211 (702937)
07-12-2013 9:10 PM
Reply to: Message 2 by Percy
07-12-2013 3:55 PM


When it comes to matters of religious history, there are plenty of self-publishers on both sides of the fence.

Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2 by Percy, posted 07-12-2013 3:55 PM Percy has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 4 by Theodoric, posted 07-12-2013 11:47 PM Jon has replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9197
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 4 of 211 (702955)
07-12-2013 11:47 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by Jon
07-12-2013 9:10 PM


When it comes to matters of religious history, there are plenty of self-publishers on both sides of the fence.
But do you see anyone on "the other side" advocating them as a reputable source?

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by Jon, posted 07-12-2013 9:10 PM Jon has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 5 by Jon, posted 07-13-2013 12:36 PM Theodoric has not replied

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 5 of 211 (703004)
07-13-2013 12:36 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by Theodoric
07-12-2013 11:47 PM


But do you see anyone on "the other side" advocating them as a reputable source?
How do you mean?
When it comes to things such as the historical Jesus, as an example, the traditionally published material claiming there was no such individual is extremely sparse. Journals don't really set aside space for such matters, and so we have folks like Earl Doherty, a common name in that debate, relying entirely on self publishing.
In fact, one complaint against Bart Ehrman's recent book on the subject was that he didn't do enough to address arguments of folks such as Doherty. In failing to do so, he neglected to counter a great many of the most popularand sometimes hardest-hittingarguments against the historical Jesus. By ignoring self-published materials, Ehrman's own position was weakened, not strengthened.
So you see, you can't ignore a self-published text and all its content simply because it was self-published. The content must be judged based on its own qualities irrespective of the source of that content.
Jon

Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 6 by ringo, posted 07-13-2013 12:54 PM Jon has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 438 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 6 of 211 (703005)
07-13-2013 12:54 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by Jon
07-13-2013 12:36 PM


Jon writes:
The content must be judged based on its own qualities irrespective of the source of that content.
So let's look at the content. What are his claims? What facts are they based on? Why does he draw one conclusion and not another?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by Jon, posted 07-13-2013 12:36 PM Jon has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 8 by Jon, posted 07-13-2013 1:32 PM ringo has replied

  
Paul Serup
Junior Member (Idle past 3919 days)
Posts: 15
From: central British Columbia, Canada
Joined: 07-11-2013


Message 7 of 211 (703008)
07-13-2013 1:09 PM
Reply to: Message 2 by Percy
07-12-2013 3:55 PM


Hi,
Good to hear from you Percy. Yes if Theodoric had said what you did, if he had said, self-published books do not usually go through any review, vetting, correction or editorial process, and I therefore question the scholarship in your book that would have been reasonable. He however, evidently having never seen my book, and knowing essentially nothing about me, made the incredibly foolish statement that I along with others, had got it all wrong, that I had, along with others had manipulated the info in order to try to support their premise. That is not using common sense, that is an extremely stupid thing to say. I did use a professional editor and I received no rejections from any publisher, as I did not approach any.
Theodoric made a number of assumptions that are false but I would suggest you have done the same thing. You have made an assumption that is not true. I would advise you that when you accuse somebody of something, you ought to double check to see that you have your facts right. I do not daily check the advertisements of my book and what booksellers put down and sometimes people get things wrong. If you had googled the words, A well-researched and persuasively presented account, Who Killed Abraham Lincoln? is particularly recommended for college library collections, one of the top three results should have been barnesandnoble.com and another of the top three, my website, Home, two out of the top three. They both would have attributed the review to the correct source, the Midwest Book Review. That search would have taken you 10 - 15 seconds? Seems fairly easy. You could have further gone to the Midwest Book Review site to confirm that this was their review of my book, that indeed it came from them, not me. Might I say, way to go in getting your facts right?
I have not been greatly concerned around whether I am a called a historian. As I stated,I have not given a great amount of consideration to labels. I have been concerned about credibility. You stated, It isn't what you think of yourself that matters, but what others think of you. You read what I wrote, correct? You read that My self published book however, was reviewed by this same personnel at Ford’s Theatre National Historic Site and was found to be well documented with footnotes, and approved for sale at Ford Theatre’s NPS store, where it is sold today. Why did they say that? They said that because of what I wrote, my work. They are not concerned about who published my book or whether I was called a historian, their concern is whether I know what I am talking about and have concluded that I do. My point was that there are people who undoubtedly would be called historians, like Joseph George, that have made mistakes and don’t know what they are talking about and if they can be labeled historians, I asserted that I have just as great a claim and greater to be called the same.
Notice that Theodoric has not replied to my statement. I wonder why? I guess he/she has nothing to say. Yes, Theodoric. On topics worth spending time on though, today is July 13th, and exactly 150 years ago today the New York Draft Riots began in the city. I wrote about them too and when I was doing research, I was amazed how ignorant people, especially Americans were about them. Those riots could have ended the American Union right there but mysteriously, this history seems to be largely unknown. As I stated on my book’s back cover,
Ten days after the battle of Gettsburg, with the army essentially gone from the city, huge blood-thirsty mobs, lynching people, torching buildings, looting and destroying property, opposed only by a vastly outnumbered police force, threatened not only the existence of New York but the whole nation as well. These ferocious mobs that, among other things, fought and killed police and soldiers, beat black people to death and burned buildings with the inhabitants in them, were essentially all Roman Catholic.
Maybe that is the reason why most people haven’t heard of these cataclysmic events, the religion involved.
Edited by Adminnemooseus, : Put in blank lines where paragraph breaks detected (enter key was used).

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2 by Percy, posted 07-12-2013 3:55 PM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 9 by jar, posted 07-13-2013 1:43 PM Paul Serup has replied
 Message 10 by Percy, posted 07-13-2013 2:03 PM Paul Serup has replied
 Message 13 by Tangle, posted 07-13-2013 4:41 PM Paul Serup has not replied
 Message 15 by Theodoric, posted 07-13-2013 5:39 PM Paul Serup has not replied
 Message 18 by Dr Adequate, posted 07-13-2013 11:09 PM Paul Serup has replied

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 8 of 211 (703009)
07-13-2013 1:32 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by ringo
07-13-2013 12:54 PM


So let's look at the content.
No thanks.

Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by ringo, posted 07-13-2013 12:54 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 32 by ringo, posted 07-14-2013 3:49 PM Jon has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 420 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 9 of 211 (703010)
07-13-2013 1:43 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by Paul Serup
07-13-2013 1:09 PM


losing what little credibility you had.
When you claim that few people know about the New York Draft Riots I will believe you, history is generally not taught in my experience in the US. When you claim that most of the rioters were Roman Catholics though all I can do is laugh at you.
Just who did the survey and inventory of the rioters? Where was this published?

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by Paul Serup, posted 07-13-2013 1:09 PM Paul Serup has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 11 by PaulK, posted 07-13-2013 3:30 PM jar has replied
 Message 19 by Paul Serup, posted 07-14-2013 12:16 AM jar has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22492
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 10 of 211 (703011)
07-13-2013 2:03 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by Paul Serup
07-13-2013 1:09 PM


Hi Paul,
I never heard of the Midwest Book Review, here's a link to the portion of the webpage containing the one-paragraph anonymous review: Midwest Book Review. Looks like a site for generating positive blurbs, it only says positive things, here's examples of how the reviews tend to end:
...a solid addition to any American history photography collection.
...highly recommended.
A most enjoyable read cover to cover, highly recommended.
...a top pick and strongly recommended read.
...an uplifting and highly recommended read that shouldn't be missed.
So in the interest of openness and transparency, would it be fair to say that though you possibly didn't write the review yourself (still an open question given the review is anonymous), you knowingly submitted your book to an organization known for giving mostly very positive reviews? What would you say is the value of such reviews?
That you have no reputation or credentials as a historian cannot be used to judge your book before having read it, but it certainly helps one decide whether it might be worth allocating the time and money. If you want people here to look at it you might consider making an online copy available.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by Paul Serup, posted 07-13-2013 1:09 PM Paul Serup has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 21 by Paul Serup, posted 07-14-2013 2:53 AM Percy has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17827
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 11 of 211 (703014)
07-13-2013 3:30 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by jar
07-13-2013 1:43 PM


Re: losing what little credibility you had.
There's a Wikipedia entry, which states that many of the rioters were Irish. However, there seem to be quite adequate explanations for the riots and their obscurity without getting into religious conspiracy theories. A shameful episode all round.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by jar, posted 07-13-2013 1:43 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 12 by jar, posted 07-13-2013 3:45 PM PaulK has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 420 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 12 of 211 (703015)
07-13-2013 3:45 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by PaulK
07-13-2013 3:30 PM


Re: losing what little credibility you had.
And not all Irish are Roman Catholic plus a big issue was discrimination, mostly by WASP business owners against the Irish.
AbE:
As another aside, when he is trying to market his bullshit about the Lincoln Assassination, perhaps he might recognize my great-great-grandfather.
Edited by jar, : see AbE:
Edited by jar, : think I may have left out a great, but then, maybe not.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by PaulK, posted 07-13-2013 3:30 PM PaulK has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9509
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.8


(1)
Message 13 of 211 (703016)
07-13-2013 4:41 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by Paul Serup
07-13-2013 1:09 PM


I don't know about Percy but i can't read a block of text like that. Not only is it hard to read it's also highly indicative of a crank, please try some paragraphs.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by Paul Serup, posted 07-13-2013 1:09 PM Paul Serup has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 14 by Percy, posted 07-13-2013 5:24 PM Tangle has not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22492
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 14 of 211 (703017)
07-13-2013 5:24 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by Tangle
07-13-2013 4:41 PM


He actually has four paragraphs, but at at least one common window width it looks like a huge second paragraph. He needs to double space between paragraphs.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by Tangle, posted 07-13-2013 4:41 PM Tangle has not replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9197
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 15 of 211 (703018)
07-13-2013 5:39 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by Paul Serup
07-13-2013 1:09 PM


My self published book however, was reviewed by this same personnel at Ford’s Theatre National Historic Site and was found to be well documented with footnotes, and approved for sale at Ford Theatre’s NPS store, where it is sold today.
Still just an assertion. Show some evidence of this.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by Paul Serup, posted 07-13-2013 1:09 PM Paul Serup has not replied

  
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