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Author Topic:   Why did the Christian messiah fail to fulfill the messianic prophecies?
Phat
Member
Posts: 18433
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 67 of 716 (703733)
07-29-2013 1:57 AM
Reply to: Message 66 by Eliyahu
07-29-2013 12:52 AM


Re: The Suffering Servant messianic passages
You are of course free to believe what you want. Too many people "prove" these things intellectually yet fail at the heart evidence.
Plus you have to ask yourself what the fruit of your argument is. You are leading people away from a relationship with the One God into religious intellectualism...devoid of any power and fatal to its adherents. I will pray for you, of course. I don't mean to sound arrogant, but quite simply you people are WRONG.
I know Jesus Christ. I have seen enough evidence to conclude that He is alive in our hearts. I wont get into an intellectual argument with any of you because quite honestly I will likely lose...but I cant make you see with your hearts, so all I can do is pray for you.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 66 by Eliyahu, posted 07-29-2013 12:52 AM Eliyahu has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 69 by Eliyahu, posted 07-29-2013 3:32 AM Phat has replied
 Message 72 by kofh2u, posted 07-29-2013 6:52 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18433
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 68 of 716 (703734)
07-29-2013 2:05 AM
Reply to: Message 42 by jar
07-27-2013 8:33 AM


Re: Two Messiahs or Two Advents?
jar writes:
Has Jesus come as the Warrior King?
Not yet.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 42 by jar, posted 07-27-2013 8:33 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 75 by jar, posted 07-29-2013 8:36 AM Phat has replied
 Message 81 by kofh2u, posted 07-29-2013 4:34 PM Phat has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18433
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 77 of 716 (703802)
07-29-2013 3:49 PM
Reply to: Message 69 by Eliyahu
07-29-2013 3:32 AM


Re: The Suffering Servant messianic passages
Im going to take this to your new thread.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 69 by Eliyahu, posted 07-29-2013 3:32 AM Eliyahu has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18433
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 89 of 716 (703881)
07-30-2013 12:13 PM
Reply to: Message 75 by jar
07-29-2013 8:36 AM


Re: Two Messiahs or Two Advents?
jar writes:
So then Jesus is still a failed Messiah.
Just out of curiosity, how can you call yourself a creedal Christian? What do your creeds say?
If Jesus was simply human on earth, why would he be the one and only son?What is the significance of the man? Was He without sin or in your belief did he sin as much as any of us.....

This message is a reply to:
 Message 75 by jar, posted 07-29-2013 8:36 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 92 by jar, posted 07-30-2013 2:19 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18433
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 90 of 716 (703882)
07-30-2013 12:18 PM
Reply to: Message 82 by jar
07-29-2013 4:47 PM


Re: Two Messiahs or Two Advents?
jar writes:
And to the best of my knowledge nothing in Revelation has ever happened.
NIV writes:
Rev 1:17-18-- When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. Then he placed his right hand on me and said: "Do not be afraid. I am the First and the Last. I am the Living One; I was dead, and behold I am alive for ever and ever! And I hold the keys of death and Hades.
What do your creeds say about this....seems as if it has happened....

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 Message 82 by jar, posted 07-29-2013 4:47 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
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Phat
Member
Posts: 18433
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 106 of 716 (704025)
08-02-2013 5:56 AM
Reply to: Message 97 by Eliyahu
08-02-2013 12:39 AM


Re: The Suffering Servant messianic passages speak about ISRAEL
aside from telling and retelling other people that there is no God besides Y-H-W-H, what is it that you believe your G-d is telling you to do with the life He gave you?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 97 by Eliyahu, posted 08-02-2013 12:39 AM Eliyahu has replied

Replies to this message:
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Phat
Member
Posts: 18433
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 175 of 716 (787848)
07-22-2016 3:39 PM
Reply to: Message 174 by LamarkNewAge
07-22-2016 3:16 PM


Re: I found a fundi apologist who interprets the relevant pre-Jesus texts
Here is a fundi admitting that there was an incarnation of God (in all his forms) before the time of Jesus, it seems.
I know Ravi Zacharias and I know that what you claim that he meant is false. He is contrasting Krishna and Jesus rather than supporting similarities, as you erroneously suggest. In addition, your post is entirely off topic. That is why my altar ego suspended you.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 174 by LamarkNewAge, posted 07-22-2016 3:16 PM LamarkNewAge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 177 by LamarkNewAge, posted 07-23-2016 1:18 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18433
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 178 of 716 (787910)
07-23-2016 2:46 PM
Reply to: Message 177 by LamarkNewAge
07-23-2016 1:18 PM


Re: Phat the debater present?
LaMark, this topic is Bible Study. Vishnu is irrelevant. The Oxford Dictionary is irrelevant. The Bhagavad-Gita is irrelevant. Please stop interrupting topics with your zoroastrianistic myths, or I will request you be banned permanently.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 177 by LamarkNewAge, posted 07-23-2016 1:18 PM LamarkNewAge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 179 by LamarkNewAge, posted 07-23-2016 5:23 PM Phat has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18433
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 182 of 716 (787952)
07-24-2016 10:20 AM
Reply to: Message 168 by ringo
07-21-2016 12:05 PM


Re: Daniel 9
GDR writes:
I think that by now it is quite clear that JC DID fulfill the messianic prophecies, so it should also be quite clear that he WAS the messiah.
You have been shown how he defeated the enemy, (evil), and how he rebuilt the temple, not as a building, but in the hearts of those that are followers of His message of loving others as we love ourselves.
ringo writes:
So he built a metaphor, not a temple.
Yes. The author(s) used a metaphor to teach and/or encourage the reader that we ourselves can be a temple of the Holy Spirit. Granted some of us metaphorically act more as if our body is a liquor store or a candy shop or a casino...but the idea suggests that we can have God dwell in us.
Add by Edit: Regarding Daniel 9:17-18:
quote:
Now therefore, our God, hear the prayer of Your servant, and his supplications, and for the Lord’s sake cause Your face to shine on Your sanctuary, which is desolate. 18 O my God, incline Your ear and hear; open Your eyes and see our desolations, and the city which is called by Your name; for we do not present our supplications before You because of our righteous deeds, but because of Your great mercies.
Despite it all being what we do and not by virtue of a free pass, I interpret the sanctuary to be my heart and soul. I can be a "temple" or a sanctuary through what I do...and I don't need to make a big religious show of it either...but I maintain that it goes hand in hand...I am able to do unto others better if my metaphorical representation of my physical body is a sanctuary of Gods presence rather than a liquor store, a candy shop, an internet porn hub, or a casino. Just sayin....
Edited by Phat, : added explanation
Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 168 by ringo, posted 07-21-2016 12:05 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 187 by LamarkNewAge, posted 07-24-2016 11:17 AM Phat has not replied
 Message 190 by ringo, posted 07-24-2016 2:07 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied
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Phat
Member
Posts: 18433
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 183 of 716 (787953)
07-24-2016 10:39 AM
Reply to: Message 176 by ringo
07-23-2016 11:49 AM


Re: Temple
ringo writes:
And yet the Jews don't accept Jesus as "the Temple" - so you can't use their concept of the Temple to back up your claim.
But as you said, I can use writing in any book in any timeframe and in any context to support a claim. Who are you to determine that a particular book or scroll was meant only for the jews of that time?
Let's just redefine Anti-Christ to fit Napoleon.
Depends on the point that you wish to make. We could redefine anti-christ to fit Donald Trump or we could even show a similarity between Donald Trumps ego and Napoleons. Thats what makes internet conversations so fun.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 176 by ringo, posted 07-23-2016 11:49 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 191 by ringo, posted 07-24-2016 2:16 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18433
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 184 of 716 (787954)
07-24-2016 10:41 AM
Reply to: Message 181 by GDR
07-23-2016 8:17 PM


Re: Temple
GDR writes:
Fine if you want to believe in a literal anti-christ.
I never spend much time worrying about this particular character. I DO believe in a literal Christ as a Messiah. It does not matter(to me) if this literary figure was meant for an entirely different culture and/or people.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 181 by GDR, posted 07-23-2016 8:17 PM GDR has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18433
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 185 of 716 (787956)
07-24-2016 10:47 AM
Reply to: Message 8 by jar
07-25-2013 10:39 AM


Re: a few possibilities.
jar writes:
Jesus is NOT the Jewish Messiah you're looking for. Move along.
Jesus will be the Jewish Messiah once He returns, kicks ass and takes names.
The Jews got the whole Messiah thing wrong.
"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid."
Every once in awhile you come up with a really good post. Its always just when I think you mislead people by telling them that the character of jesus is probably simply a tale told around a campfire. Creedal Christians shouldnt affirm a Creed that is simply a literary plot device on the dusty road of history. take a stand. You have stated that Jesus may not be "the Messiah" now but (you believe) He will be when He returns. I'll make note of that addendum to your belief statement.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by jar, posted 07-25-2013 10:39 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 186 by jar, posted 07-24-2016 11:00 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18433
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 212 of 716 (788186)
07-26-2016 6:37 PM
Reply to: Message 211 by LamarkNewAge
07-26-2016 5:44 PM


Re: Ceremonial and Moral laws.
To eat pork or not is a moral law.
Not ceremonial of cultic or ritual law.
Not any more. That law was for a particular people in a particular time. I would think that moral laws, in contrast, never change. We may be in an age of grace, for example, yet "thou shalt not kill" is still a moral law as well as a legal one. Pork, in contrast is unimportant.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 211 by LamarkNewAge, posted 07-26-2016 5:44 PM LamarkNewAge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 213 by LamarkNewAge, posted 07-26-2016 7:00 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18433
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 220 of 716 (788216)
07-27-2016 11:53 AM
Reply to: Message 219 by LamarkNewAge
07-27-2016 10:49 AM


Re: "Pork, in contrast is unimportant."
LNA writes:
Fundamentalists always want a "harmony" of scripture with the teachings of the Roman Catholic church (and the billion person strong "Protestant" amen squad that simply are copy cats of the Catholic traditions and teachings), but why not look for a harmony that matches up with the spirit of the teachings and interpretations of the Jewish Christian branch of James, the Ebionites, and the Elkesaites which was equally strong for centuries after the Catholics came to be around 80-100 AD?
Personally I find very little credibility nor any sort of "spirit" of the teachings through ancient scribblings...apart from the ones that I believe in.
It has been said that truth is not always popular. You seem to find solace in internet quotes defending the veracity of ancient religions. I find that irrelevant in 2016.
My critics would agree with you that the protestant "amen" squad simply loves harmony and popular teachings that itching ears desire to hear.
The educated secular mind dismisses modern teachings as little more than feelgood "woo". I have personally seen and witnessed some major changes in people who believe. Granted, 75% are of the amen squad and have little more than an emotional catharsis...but the truth is not only out there but He can live in here (in you) if you allow it.
But apparently you have more faith in ancient scribblings and long dead commentators of the same. To me, that stuff is boring and uninspiring.
the educated secular mind dismisses as "woo".
Getting back to "pork"...I will say that pork is much more sanitary today than it was back in the day...though many of my friends still refuse to eat it. In my opinion, this should be a preference and not some dietary rule.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 219 by LamarkNewAge, posted 07-27-2016 10:49 AM LamarkNewAge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 222 by LamarkNewAge, posted 07-27-2016 1:27 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18433
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 231 of 716 (788227)
07-27-2016 4:52 PM
Reply to: Message 227 by Taq
07-27-2016 3:56 PM


Re: Temple
Taq writes:
The Messiah prophecies call for the Messiah to defeat the enemies of Israel. Whether some dude resurrects from the dead or not, the Messiah still has to conquer those enemies.
One could argue that the very thing that makes an enemy an enemy is the bad spirit within them. Some argue that we humans have the means and responsibility to do what is right. Others argue that the very thing that causes wars is intrinsic evil...greed...idolatry....lust....pride....etc.
By resurrecting from the dead, the Messiah conquered the enemy. It is now up to us to give Him the territory He conquered.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 227 by Taq, posted 07-27-2016 3:56 PM Taq has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 243 by Taq, posted 07-28-2016 12:12 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
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