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Author Topic:   Why did the Christian messiah fail to fulfill the messianic prophecies?
jaywill
Member (Idle past 2050 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 138 of 716 (709102)
10-21-2013 9:10 AM
Reply to: Message 136 by Eliyahu
10-19-2013 3:28 PM


Re: The Suffering Servant messianic passages speak about ISRAEL
So he failed his own prophecy.
On the way to the good land some rebels rose up and accused Moses of having failed to bring them into the Promised Land. They could not endure that God was still outworking the process of fulfilling His promise.
What's the difference between you and say the 200 men of renown who followed Korah ? They accused Moses of having failed and you accuse the Messiah of having failed.
What's the difference ?
You should be instead thankful that He allows you more time to be saved from your sins so as to not come under eternal judgment.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : Correct missing words.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 136 by Eliyahu, posted 10-19-2013 3:28 PM Eliyahu has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 139 by Eliyahu, posted 10-28-2013 12:30 AM jaywill has replied

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 2050 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 140 of 716 (709535)
10-28-2013 8:35 AM
Reply to: Message 139 by Eliyahu
10-28-2013 12:30 AM


Re: The Suffering Servant messianic passages speak about ISRAEL
Still the fact remains: JC didn't fulfill the messianic prophecies, and he didn't even fulfill his own prophecies to come back within one generation with pomp and power to judge the whole world.
So he was not the messiah, but a false prophet.
The facts are clear.
I don't feel that way at all. I believe Jesus Christ certainly is the fulfillment of many prophecies in the Tanach and He is outworking His promises.
And you did not appreciate my drawing your attention to the advantage of His timing in that you still have time to be reconciled to God through His love and redemptive act to save you from the righteous judgment God's nature demands.
Are you expecting God to show some form of favoritism ? He is no respector of persons.
In these intervening years the Gospel is spread to the ends of the earth, as God Himself pronounced in Isaiah 45:22 -
quote:
"Turn to Me and be saved, All the ends of the earth, For I am God and there is no one else."
Join us who have received the Lord Jesus to carry God's invitation to the ends of the earth to come to the one God and be saved. The "child ... born" IS that Mighty God. And the "Son ... given" is the manifestation of that Eternal Father (Isaiah 9:6).
Since the resurrection of Christ all the ends of the earth must hear the message to turn to God and be saved.
and he didn't even fulfill his own prophecies to come back within one generation with pomp and power to judge the whole world.
Where do you see Christ promise to "come back" within one generation ?
Do you level the same criticism against God because Abraham died before he saw his seed inherit Canaan as the stars of heaven and the sand on the sea shore ?
Do you fault God for letting Sarah down that Abraham had to bury her in the cave of Machpelah ? Genesis chapter 23 is a very touching chapter of how this dear man Abraham went buried the wife of his youth, she never witnessing the full fruition of all God's promises to the couple.
But He is the God of resurrection and neither she nor Abraham will be disappointed. God is still outworking His purposes in the earth.
Didn't you read the relief of the patient Jews at finally seeing the culmination of Yahweh's salvation?
Isaiah 25:9 - "And it will be said in that day, Here, is our God, For whom we have waited that He may save us. This is Jehovah; for whom we have waited; Let us be glad and rejoice in His salvation."
Now in the intervening TIME between the resurrection of Jesus and His second coming, He is working His Spirit into the cooperative ones - to sanctify them, transform them, conform them to His image and build them up together in love. This requires time.
You have seen a tea bag placed into hot water. The flavor of the tea gradually disperses into the water. The water is TEAFIED. The water is turned into tea. This is the dispensing of the tea element into the water.
The intervening years before the second coming of Christ are just like this. With those who willingly cooperate the Spirit of Christ is mingling with them to transform them.
This is in preparation for the coming millennial kingdom. So you need to use the time FIRST to believe and be saved, and secondly to be saturated and permeated with Jesus Christ who became the life giving Spirit -
"the last Adam [Christ] became a life giving Spirit" (1 Cor. 15:45)
The only thing a man can take from this age into the coming age of the Messiah is the Christ that has been wrought and worked into his soul.
Do not criticize God's timing. Grasp the significance of His process, believe in Christ and cooperate with God.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 139 by Eliyahu, posted 10-28-2013 12:30 AM Eliyahu has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 141 by Eliyahu, posted 11-05-2013 11:58 PM jaywill has replied

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 2050 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


(1)
Message 142 of 716 (710497)
11-06-2013 12:44 AM
Reply to: Message 141 by Eliyahu
11-05-2013 11:58 PM


Re: The Suffering Servant messianic passages speak about ISRAEL
Here it is:
Let us take a look at the prophetic qualities of Jesus.
In Matthew 4:17 he claims that the kingdom of heaven is at hand..
Now, almost 2000 years later, the kingdom is still not here.
Tonight I can only reply to this much of your post.
You make the error of regarding the kingdom of God as only that which occurs outside of God's people, outwardly. The kingdom of the heavens is a matter of Christ first LIVING within those who receive Him. That is the King being imparted INTO the kingdom people to be their life and nature.
This is the first stage of the kingdom of the heavens and is why "the word of the kingdom" is likened to growing and maturing and fruit bearing seed in Matthew 13.
In Mark 4:26-29 Jesus also mentions the kingdom of God as something "organic" growing, developing and maturing until a climax, a consummation -
"And He said, So is the kingdom of God: as if a man cast seed on the earth, And sleeps and rises night and day, and the seed sprouts and lengthens - how, he does not know. The earth bears fruit by itself: first a blade, then an ear, then full grain in the ear.
But when the fruit is ripe, immediately he sends forth the sickle, because the harvest has come." (Mark 4:26-29) [/b]
The whole life of the growth of the seed is the kingdom of God.
The seed sprouts is the kingdom of God.
The seed lengthens is also the kingdom of God.
The seed in the blade stage is the kingdom of God.
The seed in the ear stage is also the kingdom of God.
The seed in the full grain in the ear is still the kingdom of God.
The seed in the final ripeness for harvest is the kingdom of God.
The sower rises day and night as the seed grows. In the day its growth is the kingdom of God. In the night its further growth is also the kingdom of God.
The kingdom of God here is a matter of something growing in the earth. Actually it means SOMEONE growing within those into whom Christ has entered. They are the soil and He is the "organic" life implanted into them.
There is a climax - "But when the fruit is ripe, immediately he sends forth the sickle, because the harvest has come."
The harvest of the kingdom of God has not yet come. Then the angels of God will go and rapture up the sons of the kingdom. But each stage on the earth of Christ growing in His people is the growing of the kingdom of God.
Before the harvest of the climax, before the consummation of the church age, the people living one with Jesus Christ are living in this particular stage of the kingdom of God -
As Paul wrote to the believers in Rome - "For the kingdom of God is not eating and drinking, but righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit." (Rom. 14:16)
If you wish to be in any stage of the kingdom of God you must begin by allowing Jesus Christ to come into your heart in His form as the Holy Spirit. Then live in oneness with Him in this stage - righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit.
The harvest indeed is coming.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 141 by Eliyahu, posted 11-05-2013 11:58 PM Eliyahu has not replied

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 2050 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 144 of 716 (710577)
11-07-2013 4:03 AM
Reply to: Message 141 by Eliyahu
11-05-2013 11:58 PM


Re: The Suffering Servant messianic passages speak about ISRAEL
This claim of Jesus to return soon in order to judge the whole world is all over the New Testament. Look for instance in Revelations 1:1-3, idem 3:11, idem 22:6, 10-12, 20. Everywhere here is spoken about a soon return and the early Christian communities were expecting the return of Christ in their lifetimes, as we can read in I Corinthians 7:29, Romans 13:11-12, and I Peter 4:7. Their belief in a return of Christ in their lifetimes was based upon very clear, not to be misunderstood statements of Jesus. Look for an impressive prophesy in Mark 13:24-30: "The sun shall be darkened and the moon shall not give her light. And the stars of heaven will fall and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken. And then they shall see the son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. And then he shall send his angels and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven .. Verily I say to you, that this generation shall not pass till all these things be done." See also Matthew 24:29-35 and Luke 21;25-33. .
Without using many quotes from Scripture I will answer this paragraph.
There is a difference between the disciples wanting Jesus to have His second coming in their lifetimes. Lovers always yearn to be together fully soon. Of course they spoke eagerly of His second coming.
Yet you cannot deny that Christ conditioned the disciples for a "long distance race." And the eagerness of Peter and of Paul and the other writers of the New Testament is not without a pragmatic sense of preparing the churches for the long distance race in case Jesus did not return physically in their life times.
I will not list many passages to prove this tonight. The point is that their eagerness for His SOON appearing in glory was not altogether without a pragmatic preparation of the disciples for endurance, long suffering, patience, steadiness, and unfailing steadfastness in case His appearing was to occur after their demise.
Christ has not been idle in the intervening years since His resurrection and ascension. For one, He said that the gospel needed to be taken to the uttermost parts of the earth. He had to allow the persecution to scatter the Jerusalem disciples so that the incentive to spread the message would be realized. Apparently their first choice was to all remain in Jerusalem.
While the Gospel is proceeding throughout the earth it also must be TESTED. And it has been tested from without the church and from within. The durability of the truth God so to allow to be tested from every conceivable angle. God wanted to demonstrate that the gates of hell could never prevail against the church.
In the centuries since, there is also the gathering of the overcomers. Who are the overcomers ? In short it means those most NORMAL disciples who arrive AT the standard of obedience and cooperation to be the kingdom people.
Most people resort to the Gospel merely to meet their own need to be saved. That is of course a legitimate need. But there is also the need to be saturated and permeated with Christ that He may have co-kings to reign WITH Him when He comes. God knows that some will view forgiveness as an end in itself. Once some believers are saved they feel that the goal of the gospel has been reached. Some simply feel they have their "ticket" so to speak. Others realize that God has a need as well. He needs men and women consecrated to be sanctified and overcome in life. These are the ones Christ promises would reign with Him in the millennial kingdom.
So we might say, out of quantity He obtains quality. Out of the many saved and forgiven, He obtains a remnant of those sanctified, built up, transformed, and permeated with the Spirit of Christ to be those who overcome.
This principle is seen in the Old Testament as well. It is usually only a remnant of all the people of God who grasped that not only THEIR need had to be met. But God had a need for victorious overcomers in the spiritual warfare. These were usually a remnant like Gideon's little army. What God accomplishes through this remnant is for the sake of the whole body of His people.
So out of the quantity of those saved through the years, here and there He obtains and builds up a growing remnant of those most cooperative with His full salvation. Not all the saints will be granted to reign with Christ when He does come again.
The overcomers are not super spiritual. They are not an elite or special class. We must think of the overcomers as not above the standard but right AT the standard of normality.
These throughout the ages who "reign in life" through Christ will reign in the manifestation of the kingdom of God in His second coming. In the church age they ARE in the kingdom of God being under God's government within. Then the inward discipline will be rewarded with the outward manifestation in the millennial kingdom.
Now I use only one passage. That is the disciples own concern for the soon appearing of the outward manifestation of the kingdom, and Christ's response -
Acts 1:6,7
quote:
"So when they had come together, they asked Him, Lord, is this the time when you will restore the kingdom to Israel?
He replied, It is not for you to know the times or periods that the Father has set by His own authority. But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you will be My witnesses in Jerusalem, in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth."

This is His parting instruction before His ascension to the right hand of God in the third heavens. They are to be clothed with the power of the Holy Spirit to bear witness to His life, death, and resurrection.
He said in the great commission that He is WITH them all the days until that sovereign time known only to the Father, that they are to carry the good news to all the world -
quote:
"All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to Me. Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them into the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you. And behold I am with you always, even to the consummation of the age." (Matt. 28:16)
He is physically to come. But He is with the disciples ALWAYS, even until the end of the church age. "He who is joined to the Lord is one spirit" (1 Cor. 6:17)
When Jesus Christ does physically return to this earth, most people will think that it is too soon rather than too late.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 141 by Eliyahu, posted 11-05-2013 11:58 PM Eliyahu has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 145 by Tangle, posted 11-07-2013 6:48 AM jaywill has not replied

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 2050 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 146 of 716 (710624)
11-07-2013 3:10 PM


quote:
"Truly I say to you that this generation shall by no means pass away until all these things happen." (Matt. 24:34)
Generation here does not refer to a generation defined according to an age or a person, like the generations mentioned in 1:17.
quote:
"Thus all the generations from Abraham until David are fourteen generations, and from David until the deportation to Babylon, fourteen generations, and from the deportation to Babylon until the Christ, fourteen generations."
Here generation in Matthew 24:34 refers to a generation defined by the moral condition of the people as in -
11:16,17 - "But to what shall I liken this generation? It is like little children sitting in the marketplaces, who call to the others and say, We have played the flute to you, and you did not dance; we have sung a dirge, and you did not mourn."
12:39 - "But He answered and said to them, An evil and adulterous generation seeks after a sign, and a sign shall not be given to it except the sign of Jonah the prophet."
See also verses 41,42, and 45.
Proverbs 30:11-14 -
quote:
There is a generation that curse their father, and do not bless their mother. (v.11)
There is a generation that are pure in their own eyes, and yet are not washed from their filthiness. (v.12)
There is a generation - oh how lofty are their eyes, and their eyelids are raised arrogantly. (v.13)
There is a generation whose teeth are like swords, and their jaw teeth like knives to devour the afflicted from off the earth, and the needy from among men. (v.14)
Matthew 24:34 is speaking of generation in this regard - characterized by a moral condition.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Replies to this message:
 Message 148 by Theodoric, posted 11-07-2013 3:54 PM jaywill has not replied

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 2050 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 147 of 716 (710625)
11-07-2013 3:30 PM
Reply to: Message 141 by Eliyahu
11-05-2013 11:58 PM


Re: The Suffering Servant messianic passages speak about ISRAEL
In Matthew 16:27-28 Jesus says: "For the son of man shall come in the glory of his father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works. Verily I say unto you, there be some standing here which shall not taste of death till they see the son of man coming in his kingdom." See also Mark 9:1
Did anybody see him coming in his kingdom? Is every man already rewarded according to his works?... But some of them would not die until they would have seen him coming in his kingdom!...Are they still around today?....Even Methuselah didn't live that long!
You are reading one thing and inserting something else mentally as you read.
You are reading "the Son of Man coming in His kingdom" but inserting mentally "the second coming of Christ."
The Son of Man coming in His kingdom was previewed to the three disciples in the immediately following passage about Christ being transfigured before their eyes on the mountain - (Matthew 17:1-6) .
No, that was not the second coming of Christ there on the mountain of transfiguration. But it was the coming of the Son of Man in His kingdom. His kingdom is a matter of God mingled with humanity. And Jesus gave three of His inner circle of disciples a preview and glimpse of the divine glory of God shining out from His humanity - a deified human being. This is a major aspect of the kingdom of God.
So He gave Peter, James, and John a foretaste of what both He and they were to experience - the divine life of God within them temporarily emanating its splendor radiantly from Christ's body.
Why else would the evangelist place following this promise the occurrence -
quote:
And after six days Jesus took with Him Peter and James and John his brother, and brought them up to a high mountain privately. And He was transfigured before them, and His face shone like the sun, and His garments became as white as the light.
And behold, Noses and Elijah appeared to them, conversing with Him." (17:1,2)

Peter in his epistle refers to this incident saying that they were witnesses to the power of the coming of the Lord Jesus, even though Peter looked forward to the future to the second coming of Christ.
quote:
"For we did not follow cleverly devised myths when we made known to you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but we became eyewitnesses of that One's majesty.
For He received from God the Father honor and glory, a voice such as this being borne to Him by the magnificent glory: This is My Son, My Beloeved, in whom I delight.
And this voice we heard being borne out of heaven while we were with Him in the holy mountain." (2 Peter 1:16-18)

They got a preview of Christ coming in His glory. They did not yet see the second coming of Christ nor was that what Jesus was promising them they'd see before they died.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 141 by Eliyahu, posted 11-05-2013 11:58 PM Eliyahu has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 149 by Tangle, posted 11-07-2013 4:25 PM jaywill has not replied

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 2050 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 150 of 716 (710628)
11-07-2013 4:35 PM


They got a preview of Christ coming in His glory. They did not yet see the second coming of Christ nor was that what Jesus was promising them they'd see before they died.
What Christ promised them was that some of them would be killed for His cause -
"They will put you out of the synagogues; but an hour is coming for everyone who kills you to think that he is offering service to God." (John 16:2)
That in fact is what happened according to Christ's prediction.

Replies to this message:
 Message 155 by Eliyahu, posted 01-29-2014 1:21 PM jaywill has not replied

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 2050 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 151 of 716 (710629)
11-07-2013 4:52 PM
Reply to: Message 141 by Eliyahu
11-05-2013 11:58 PM


Re: The Suffering Servant messianic passages speak about ISRAEL
Deuteronomy 18:20-22: "But the prophet which shall presume to speak a word in my name which I have not commanded him to speak, or that shall speak in the name of other gods, even that prophet shall die. And if you say in your heart; how shall we know the word that the LORD has not spoken? When a prophet speaks in the name of the LORD, if the thing follows not, nor come to pass, this is the thing that the LORD has not spoken, but the prophet has spoken it presumptuously, you shall not be afraid of him."
There is no stipulation in this command as to how long a time should transpire between the thing spoken and the fulfillment.
The people sought to stone Moses for not bringing them into the good land at the time they thought they should be there.
Though the time of that fulfillment, many died in the wilderness and never saw, they did see confirmation enough that Moses spoke God's words, many of which they DID see come to pass.
Jesus predicted His death and resurrection which came to pass as He said. This gives us encouragement that if those matters came true other matters spoken by Him will come true as well.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 141 by Eliyahu, posted 11-05-2013 11:58 PM Eliyahu has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 152 by Theodoric, posted 11-07-2013 5:03 PM jaywill has replied

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 2050 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


(1)
Message 153 of 716 (710633)
11-07-2013 6:00 PM
Reply to: Message 152 by Theodoric
11-07-2013 5:03 PM


Re: The Suffering Servant messianic passages speak about ISRAEL
Then again that could simply be your unbelief.
There is the unbelief of people who would claim that no prophesied event in the Bible ever came to pass.
I would just count your objection as your own unbelief.
Jesus also prophesied that nothing would destroy His ekklessia - the church. In 2,000 some years the Christian church should have been wiped out and terminated. She grows and spreads still. I would count that as fulfilled prophecy of Jesus.
" ... and upon this rock I will build My church, and the gates of Hades shall nmot prevail against it." (Matt. 16:18)
Not Ceasar's Rome, not Constantine's confusion, not the Dark Ages, not Mao's Cultural Revolution, not Voltaire's promise to rid the Christian gospel, ... I would think that the gates of Hades should have prevailed over Christ's church long ago.
She triumphs until the coming of Christ.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 152 by Theodoric, posted 11-07-2013 5:03 PM Theodoric has not replied

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 2050 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


(1)
Message 320 of 716 (792864)
10-14-2016 4:24 PM
Reply to: Message 305 by ringo
08-05-2016 11:48 AM


Re: Temple
quote:
Jesus said that renewal of this world is our responsibility.
Where ?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 305 by ringo, posted 08-05-2016 11:48 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 321 by ringo, posted 10-15-2016 12:02 PM jaywill has not replied
 Message 325 by LamarkNewAge, posted 10-19-2016 4:30 PM jaywill has not replied

  
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