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Author Topic:   Why did the Christian messiah fail to fulfill the messianic prophecies?
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1559 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


(1)
Message 3 of 716 (703571)
07-25-2013 3:44 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Eliyahu
07-25-2013 1:47 AM


Two Messiahs or Two Advents?
The scriptures do in fact indicate two comings of Christ if you know how to read them properly. Even some Jewish commentators find two different Messiahs in the Hebrew scriptures, the Suffering Servant and the Warrior King, ben Joseph and ben David being the names they assigned these two anointed ones I think though I may not remember the names rightly. And some even considered that there might be three Messiahs. This is because the scriptures present different portraits of Him. (A book on Jewish Messianic teachings by Raphael Patai, a nonChristian Jew, is my main source for this information).
But nowhere is more than one Messiah ever hinted at in the scriptures. The best resolution of the different portraits is the one Christians teach, that rather than different Messiahs there is one Messiah who will come twice, first as the Suffering Servant who dies to pay for the sins of His people, and then at the end as the Warrior King who will take vengeance on His enemies and the enemies of His people.
When Jesus read Isaiah 61:1-2a in the synagogue and claimed that He was its fulfillment He gave a strong indication of this understanding of His mission:
Luk 4:16 And he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up: and, as his custom was, he went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and stood up for to read.
Luk 4:17 And there was delivered unto him the book of the prophet Esaias. And when he had opened the book, he found the place where it was written,
Luk 4:18 The Spirit of the Lord [is] upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,
Luk 4:19 To preach the acceptable year of the Lord.
Luk 4:20 And he closed the book, and he gave [it] again to the minister, and sat down. And the eyes of all them that were in the synagogue were fastened on him.
Luk 4:21 And he began to say unto them, This day is this scripture fulfilled in your ears.
Note that He stopped reading right after the line "To preach the acceptable year of the Lord" but the passage in Isaiah from which He was reading goes on: "and the day of vengeance of our God." This is understood in Christian theology to mean that Jesus was claiming only to fulfill the mission of God's grace at that time, but that when He comes again it will be as the executor of God's vengeance when He will destroy God's enemies.
Isa 61:1 The Spirit of the Lord GOD [is] upon me; because the LORD hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to [them that are] bound;
Isa 61:2 To proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD, and the day of vengeance of our God ...
We are still in the time of grace, when people can still be saved by repentance and faith, but the time of vengeance can't be far off, when there is no more opportunity for salvation.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1559 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 11 of 716 (703596)
07-25-2013 12:40 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by Eliyahu
07-25-2013 10:43 AM


Re: Two Messiahs or Two Advents?
There is no "suffering and dying messiah" in the Tanach.
Isaiah 52 and 53. And I'll have to see if I can find a Jewish commentary that views those passages as related to the Messiah but I won't be able to do that until later.
Yes, I'm quite aware of how the term "Messiah" is derived, so that there are many "messiahs" in that small sense, but don't be so disingenuous as to try to deny that the Hebrew scriptures point to one particular Messiah, THE Anointed One of God. Orthodox Jews believe He is yet to come, no? We believe He came 2000 years ago and will come another time.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1559 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 15 of 716 (703612)
07-26-2013 4:33 AM
Reply to: Message 12 by Eliyahu
07-25-2013 1:15 PM


The Suffering Servant messianic passages
I don't want to see Jewish commentators who view those passages as speaking about the messiah.
What I want is solid arguments based not on commentators, but on the Tanach, that Isaiah 53 speaks about the messiah.
Possibly we can do both. You claim that Christians "made up" the Suffering Servant idea of the Messiah so it should be appropriate to point out that Jews have also regarded the Suffering Servant passages to be messianic.
The book I mentioned by Raphael Patai, The Messiah Texts, is a scholarly study of Jewish writings on the messianic passages in scripture, including such sources as the Babylonian Talmud, the Zohar and later rabbis such as R. Nahman, and many others. Patai is not a believer but a scholar who follows the modernist views of the Bible and is simply interested in how the "myths" about the Messiah were understood in various Jewish writings.
The Suffering Servant passages were definitely regarded as messianic in many of these sources. In his Introduction he writes of the "Deutero-Isaiah" passages about the Suffering Servant, as "describing the call, mission, sufferings, death and resurrection of this mysterious individual. ... the Aggada, the Talmudic legend, unhesitatingly identifies him with the Messiah and understands especially the descriptions of his sufferings as referring to Messiah ben Joseph..." [one of the two Messiahs that show up in the Jewish writings]
Patai points out at the beginning of his first chapter that Jewish and some Christian scholars regard the Suffering Servant passages as referring to Israel as a whole. "Yet these same passages became in Talmudic times identified with the Messianic theme, and so they have remained in Jewish folk consciousness throughout the ages." He goes on to say the idea is developed from the Isaiah passages about the Suffering Servant in the Talmud, the Midrash and the Zohar.
The point of all this of course, again, is simply to show that Christians did not make up the idea of the Messiah as the Suffering Servant, but that it was understood to be messianic by many Jewish sources as well.
You say in your answer to PaulK above:
According to Christianity, the whole chapter of Isaiah 53 and the last verses of chapter 52, from verse 13, are talking about Jesus. Why do they think so? Because the NT says so, and because it fits so nicely with the Christian story about a suffering messiah. And what proof do the Christians have that the subject in Isaiah 53, the suffering servant, is the messiah?
The writings of the various Jewish interpretations of the scriptures ought to go some way toward showing that it isn't only the New Testament (whose writers are almost all Jews anyway) but many nonChristian Jews who find those passages to be messianic. That may not be proof but then how do you prove something that's a matter of interpretation anyway? The fact that it is shared by many serious Jewish interpreters of the scriptures ought to carry a great deal of weight.
For reference here are the Suffering Servant passages:
Isa 52:13 Behold, my servant shall deal prudently, he shall be exalted and extolled, and be very high.
Isa 52:14 As many were astonied at thee; his visage was so marred more than any man, and his form more than the sons of men:
Isa 52:15 So shall he sprinkle many nations; the kings shall shut their mouths at him: for [that] which had not been told them shall they see; and [that] which they had not heard shall they consider.
Isa 53:1 Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the LORD revealed?
Isa 53:2 For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, [there is] no beauty that we should desire him.
Isa 53:3 He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were [our] faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.
Isa 53:4 Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.
Isa 53:5 But he [was] wounded for our transgressions, [he was] bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace [was] upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.
Isa 53:6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.
Isa 53:7 He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.
Isa 53:8 He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.
Isa 53:9 And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither [was any] deceit in his mouth.
Isa 53:10 Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put [him] to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see [his] seed, he shall prolong [his] days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.
Isa 53:11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, [and] shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.
Isa 53:12 Therefore will I divide him [a portion] with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.
Hard NOT to see Jesus in this passage I would think.
There are other passages in Isaiah that are understood to be messianic and are about the Suffering Servant:
Isa 42:1 Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, [in whom] my soul delighteth; I have put my spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles.
Isa 42:2 He shall not cry, nor lift up, nor cause his voice to be heard in the street.
Isa 42:3 A bruised reed shall he not break, and the smoking flax shall he not quench: he shall bring forth judgment unto truth.
Isa 42:4 He shall not fail nor be discouraged, till he have set judgment in the earth: and the isles shall wait for his law.
Isa 42:5 Thus saith God the LORD, he that created the heavens, and stretched them out; he that spread forth the earth, and that which cometh out of it; he that giveth breath unto the people upon it, and spirit to them that walk therein:
Isa 42:6 I the LORD have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles;
Isa 42:7 To open the blind eyes, to bring out the prisoners from the prison, [and] them that sit in darkness out of the prison house.
Isa 42:8 I [am] the LORD: that [is] my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images.
Isa 42:9 Behold, the former things are come to pass, and new things do I declare: before they spring forth I tell you of them.
Isa 49:1 Listen, O isles, unto me; and hearken, ye people, from far; The LORD hath called me from the womb; from the bowels of my mother hath he made mention of my name.
Isa 49:2 And he hath made my mouth like a sharp sword; in the shadow of his hand hath he hid me, and made me a polished shaft; in his quiver hath he hid me;
Isa 49:3 And said unto me, Thou [art] my servant, O Israel, in whom I will be glorified.
Isa 49:4 Then I said, I have laboured in vain, I have spent my strength for nought, and in vain: [yet] surely my judgment [is] with the LORD, and my work with my God.
Isa 49:5 And now, saith the LORD that formed me from the womb [to be] his servant, to bring Jacob again to him, Though Israel be not gathered, yet shall I be glorious in the eyes of the LORD, and my God shall be my strength.
Isa 49:6 And he said, It is a light thing that thou shouldest be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved of Israel: I will also give thee for a light to the Gentiles, that thou mayest be my salvation unto the end of the earth.
Isa 49:7 Thus saith the LORD, the Redeemer of Israel, [and] his Holy One, to him whom man despiseth, to him whom the nation abhorreth, to a servant of rulers, Kings shall see and arise, princes also shall worship, because of the LORD that is faithful, [and] the Holy One of Israel, and he shall choose thee.
Isa 49:8 Thus saith the LORD, In an acceptable time have I heard thee, and in a day of salvation have I helped thee: and I will preserve thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, to establish the earth, to cause to inherit the desolate heritages;
Isa 49:9 That thou mayest say to the prisoners, Go forth; to them that [are] in darkness, Shew yourselves. They shall feed in the ways, and their pastures [shall be] in all high places.
Isa 50:4 The Lord GOD hath given me the tongue of the learned, that I should know how to speak a word in season to [him that is] weary: he wakeneth morning by morning, he wakeneth mine ear to hear as the learned.
Isa 50:5 The Lord GOD hath opened mine ear, and I was not rebellious, neither turned away back.
Isa 50:6 I gave my back to the smiters, and my cheeks to them that plucked off the hair: I hid not my face from shame and spitting.
Isa 50:7 For the Lord GOD will help me; therefore shall I not be confounded: therefore have I set my face like a flint, and I know that I shall not be ashamed.
Isa 50:8 [He is] near that justifieth me; who will contend with me? let us stand together: who [is] mine adversary? let him come near to me.
Isa 50:9 Behold, the Lord GOD will help me; who [is] he [that] shall condemn me? lo, they all shall wax old as a garment; the moth shall eat them up.
In verse 3 of Isaiah 49 Israel is addressed, and as I pointed out above some think all these messianic passages refer to Israel as the Suffering Servant. That looks like quite a stretch to me of course. Some Christian theologies say that Jesus stands for Israel so that the verse is addressed to Him anyway. The rest of the passage certainly applies to Him.
You also said that there is nothing about a dying Messiah in scripture, but there is, in Daniel 9:24-26, which Patai also references, and this passage speaks explicitly of the Messiah:
Dan 9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.
Dan 9:25 Know therefore and understand, [that] from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince [shall be] seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.
Dan 9:26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof [shall be] with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
This is also the famous passage by which we can calculate the exact timing of Jesus' riding the donkey into Jerusalem from a particular decree to rebuild Jerusalem after the Babylonian Captivity.
{By the way, you mention in your OP Jesus riding a donkey as if that means nothing, but that's the only time he rode a donkey that we know of and his riding that animal into Jerusalem was symbolic of a King announcing that He comes in peace, in the context of Middle Eastern customs.)
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1559 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 22 of 716 (703630)
07-26-2013 2:20 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by PaulK
07-26-2013 9:27 AM


Re: The Suffering Servant messianic passages
Because it says it's about the Messiah.

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 Message 16 by PaulK, posted 07-26-2013 9:27 AM PaulK has replied

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1559 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 23 of 716 (703631)
07-26-2013 2:23 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by Eliyahu
07-26-2013 9:52 AM


Re: The Suffering Servant messianic passages
It would be nice if you would at least acknowledge that Christians didn't make up the messianic meaning of the Suffering Servant passages if such nonChristian sources as the Babylonian Talmud and so many others also view it as messianic.

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1559 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 24 of 716 (703632)
07-26-2013 2:28 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by Eliyahu
07-26-2013 10:04 AM


Re: The Suffering Servant messianic passages
So, just like I said, the Christians don't have the slightest shred of Biblical evidence, that Isaiah 53 speaks about the messiah.
So why should anybody take the Christian claims seriously??
Perhaps I will go through some of the passages later to explain what's so clearly messianic about them. Meanwhile it ought to carry some weight that many great spiritual men down the centuries knew them to be messianic.
.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1559 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 26 of 716 (703635)
07-26-2013 2:49 PM
Reply to: Message 25 by PaulK
07-26-2013 2:38 PM


Re: The Suffering Servant messianic passages
Dan 9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.
Dan 9:25 Know therefore and understand, [that] from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince [shall be] seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.
Dan 9:26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof [shall be] with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1559 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


(1)
Message 28 of 716 (703637)
07-26-2013 3:05 PM
Reply to: Message 27 by PaulK
07-26-2013 2:54 PM


Re: Daniel 9
Looks obvious to me as I'm sure it does to you as well, and how about the fact that not only 2000 years of Christian understanding plus the sources I mentioned from the Patai book regard it as referring to THE Messiah, and if you still want to argue go ahead I won't answer since you have no real interest in the truth about it anyway.

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1559 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 30 of 716 (703648)
07-26-2013 6:26 PM
Reply to: Message 28 by Faith
07-26-2013 3:05 PM


Re: Daniel 9
Also, wherever a "Messiah" is spoken of by that title alone, without giving the identity of the one anointed -- such as Saul or David or Solomon and so on -- it is understood to refer to THE Messiah promised and prophesied down the centuries from Eden, who will save the people from their sins. The fact that there are many ordinary messiahs is irrelevant and a red herring, since all the anointed ones but THE Anointed One are clearly identified.

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1559 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 34 of 716 (703655)
07-26-2013 7:20 PM
Reply to: Message 31 by ramoss
07-26-2013 7:14 PM


Re: Two Messiahs or Two Advents?
No, that's what the people do who don't see two comings of Christ.

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1559 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 35 of 716 (703656)
07-26-2013 7:24 PM
Reply to: Message 33 by ramoss
07-26-2013 7:20 PM


Re: Two Messiahs or Two Advents?
There is a lot of ambiguity in all the messianic passages, but usually the ambiguity itself, along with sudden changes of focus, is what gives the clue that they are prophetic. There is some blurring of the identity of the Messiah WITH Israel as a whole, for instance, because He stands for Israel, He is the fulfillment of the Abrahamic promise to be the blessing to the world that the Jews as a people never were and never will be. If you read those passages honestly most of what is described of the "servant" couldn't possibly describe Israel as a whole.

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1559 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 39 of 716 (703665)
07-27-2013 1:23 AM
Reply to: Message 36 by ramoss
07-26-2013 7:32 PM


Re: The Suffering Servant messianic passages
Here is where you are not understanding what a messiah is. In Jewish culture , messiah, means 'Anointed one'. Kings are considered 'anointed ones', as well as the high priest in the temple. That means Cyprus was a messiah.. a king.
Indeed, and I've acknowledged that fact many times here already.
And as I've also pointed out at length, based on the study by Raphael Patai, it is some of the best teachers of Jewish culture who understand the Suffering and Dying Servant scriptures to be messianic, along with all the other messianic scriptures Christians also recognize. Babylonian Talmud, Haggadah, Midrash, particular rabbis etc etc etc.
In this case, the author of the Book of Daniel
Daniel the prophet himself of course, because the book makes absolutely no sense at all written by anyone else who came later.
which was written in 164 BCE,
Only according to unbelieving "scholars" who dated it so late simply because they refuse to believe in prophecy, which is in fact affirmed in your quotations of such "scholars," but such a late date destroys the whole context and coherence of the book, and makes a liar out of its writers, something unbelievers in the supernatural love to do of course. It only holds together when it is acknowledged to have been written by the great prophet Daniel himself writing toward the end of the Babylonian captivity, chapter 9 having been written, according to my sources, around 538 BC, almost 400 years earlier. It is genuine prophecy, beautiful prophecy.
was writing a propaganda piece to try to encourage people against Antioch IV.
One of those Likely Stories made up by unbelievers, but if you actually READ Daniel you couldn't possibly believe such nonsense without committing some pretty terrible false witness against him. He prophesied of Antiochus Epiphanes, and much before and after that character as well.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1559 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


(1)
Message 40 of 716 (703666)
07-27-2013 1:37 AM
Reply to: Message 37 by jar
07-26-2013 7:43 PM


Re: Two Messiahs or Two Advents?
Of course, if Faith's assertion of two Messiahs were true then Jesus according to her argument is NOT the Messiah or is a failed Messiah.
However, of course, Faith did NOT make any such assertion. Faith pointed out that some Jewish Bible interpreters down the centuries, including writers of the Babylonian Talmud etc etc etc, came up with the idea of two Messiahs because they recognized the two different portraits of the Messiah in the scripture, the Suffering Servant portrait and the Warrior King portrait, and that is how THEY reconciled the two. It is NOT how I or Christians reconcile the two portraits. We reconcile them by understanding that the one and only Messiah Jesus of Nazareth came the first time as the Suffering Servant and will come a second and last time as the Warrior King to take vengeance on God's enemies.
The question is whether you have a reading problem or simply enjoy misrepresenting whatever I say. Which is it?
The suffering servant may have been fulfilled but not the avenging despot.
Uh huh, but remember that it is the "avenging despot" that Eliyahu, along with Orthodox Jews in general, believe is THE Messiah who is yet to come, having denied that there is anything messianic about the Suffering Servant passages of scripture. They disagree with the Jewish sources referenced in the book by Raphael Patai that I have referred to above.
And again, Christians reconcile the two portraits of the Messiah in the Hebrew scriptures in terms of two separate advents. We are still in the time of grace since His first advent when He came as Suffering Servant to die for our sins, but He's coming again as the Warrior King, most likely not too far in the future.
So by her very argument Jesus is NOT the Messiah
Not MY argument, jar, as you either know but prefer to misrepresent, or failed to grasp because of reading problems.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

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 Message 42 by jar, posted 07-27-2013 8:33 AM Faith has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1559 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


(1)
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Message 41 of 716 (703667)
07-27-2013 3:26 AM
Reply to: Message 18 by Eliyahu
07-26-2013 10:04 AM


Just a little note to Eliyahu as I take my leave
Or hope I'm taking my leave from this typical EvC exercise in confusion.
I would just like to say that I've had extensive discussions with Orthodox Jews and I can come up with arguments to answer your arguments pretty much point by point thanks to that experience. Of course you will not change your mind and I will not change mine and there we will be, at stalemate in the end. Right now, due to a lot that's going on in my "real" life at the moment, I'm really not up to a repeat of that whole scenario so I would like to bow out of this thread.
But what I'd say to you in parting is that by agreeing with anything the others on this thread have to say you are agreeing with your own worst enemies, IF you are the kind of Orthodox Jewish believer I'm familiar with, because although they will happily agree with all the "liberal" reworkings of scripture you embrace in order to argue with Christians, they despise your belief in God and the supernatural elements of scripture as much as they despise mine. Some here love to denounce the God of the Hebrew scriptures as a "genocidal maniac" and an evil entity invented by the Jews to serve tribal purposes. If you are a true Orthodox believer that shouldn't sit well with you.
You of course are quite happy to side with anything that debunks your hated Christianity and Jesus Christ, but beware because in many important points concerning scripture among other things we are more on your side than these guys here are.
Shalom.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by Eliyahu, posted 07-26-2013 10:04 AM Eliyahu has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 43 by Faith, posted 07-27-2013 8:44 AM Faith has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1559 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 43 of 716 (703676)
07-27-2013 8:44 AM
Reply to: Message 41 by Faith
07-27-2013 3:26 AM


Isaiah 52:13-15
I'm going to give some commentaries on Isaiah 52:13-15 since I don't have time to go through all of this right now. They speak for Protestant Christianity just fine and of course far better than I could possibly do. Of course much more has to be said -- about Isaiah 42, 49, 50 and 53. But this should be a start:
David Guzik:
B. The Servant of the Lord brings salvation to many nations.
1. (13-14) The exaltation and humiliation of the Servant of the Lord.
Behold, My Servant shall deal prudently; He shall be exalted and extolled and be very high. Just as many were astonished at you, so His visage was marred more than any man, and His form more than the sons of men.
a. Behold, My Servant: This passage, through the end of Isaiah 53, has in focus the Servant of the Lord. This is the Servant previously spoken of in Isaiah 42:1, and Isaiah 49:3 and 6.
i. The Ethiopian in Acts 8:24 asked a question about Isaiah 52:13 through 53:12: Of whom does the prophet say this, of himself or of some other man? This question is still asked today, and the answer is extremely important.
ii. Through the book of Isaiah, many have been called servants of the Lord in one way or another. This includes Isaiah himself (Isaiah 20:3), Eliakim (Isaiah 22:20), David (Isaiah 37:35), Israel (Isaiah 41:8-9). But there is no doubt that the phrase is also used as a specific title for the Messiah, and this is what is in view here.
iii. The New King James Version rightly capitalizes Servant, because the context demonstrates this is a clear reference to Jesus. Additionally, Matthew quotes Isaiah 42:1-5 and plainly says it is a prophecy fulfilled in Jesus (Matthew 12:16-21). Additionally, in Matthew 8:16-17 the Bible takes this passage of Isaiah 52:13 through 53:12 and says it specifically applies to Jesus.
iv. Many people are amazed that people - especially Jewish people - can read a chapter like this and miss Jesus. But really it isn’t surprising. When we make up our minds about who Jesus is, it’s easy to become blind and deaf to the plain, simple message of the Word of God. Put away your pre-conceived notions and your cultural Jesus. Let the Word of God tell you who He is.
b. He shall be exalted and extolled and be very high: The first words of the Lord in the mouth of the prophet regarding His Servant declare His victory. He shall be exalted and extolled means that the Messiah will triumph. There is no doubt about it. Before any of His suffering is announced, His glorious triumph is assured.
c. His visage was marred more than any man: This speaks of the cruel and vicious beating Jesus endured at the hands of his enemies. Jesus was beaten so badly on His face that He hardly looked like a man. The result was so shocking that many were astonished when they saw Jesus.
i. Now the men who held Jesus mocked Him and beat Him. And having blindfolded Him, they struck Him on the face and asked Him, saying, Prophesy! Who is the one who struck You? (Luke 22:63-64)
ii. The astonishment mentioned may be subtly referred to in the New Testament. On several occasions after His resurrection, the followers of Jesus were slow to recognize Him (Luke 24:16; John 20:14, and 21:4). On one occasion, they even seem awkward about His appearance: Yet none of the disciples dared ask Him, Who are You? - knowing that it was the Lord. (John 21:12) This may indicate that the marred visage of Jesus remained after His resurrection. We know that Jesus retained some of the scars of His crucifixion (Luke 24:40; John 20:25-28), perhaps this extends to His face as well. However, we should not be troubled by the thought of seeing an ugly Jesus in heaven. If those scars do remain, they will only increase His glory and beauty to our eyes, standing as badges of His matchless love.
iii. More than any man does not literally mean that by appearances, Jesus was beaten more severely than any many would ever be beaten. It is a poetic hyperbole used to express the terrible effect of the beating He endured.
2. (15) The cleansing of many nations.
So shall He sprinkle many nations. Kings shall shut their mouths at Him; for what had not been told them they shall see, and what they had not heard they shall consider.
a. So shall He sprinkle many nations: Sprinkling is often associated with cleansing from sin in the Old Testament (Exodus 24:8; Leviticus 3:6; Numbers 19:21; Ezekiel 36:25). Here, the promise is that the work of the Messiah will bring cleansing to many nations.
i. The Messiah is certainly Israel’s Messiah; yet He belongs to more than Israel. His saving, cleansing work will extend far beyond Israel to many nations.
b. Kings shall shut their mouths at Him: Though all will be astonished at His appearance, they will have nothing to say against Him. His glory and His great work will stop every word. When they spoke against Him before, it was in blindness, but now what had not been told them they shall see.
Jamieson, Fausset and Brown:
13. Here the fifty-third chapter ought to begin, and the fifty-second chapter end with Isa 52:12 . This section, from here to end of the fifty-third chapter settles the controversy with the Jews, if Messiah be the person meant; and with infidels, if written by Isaiah, or at any time before Christ. The correspondence with the life and death of Jesus Christ is so minute, that it could not have resulted from conjecture or accident. An impostor could not have shaped the course of events so as to have made his character and life appear to be a fulfilment of it. The writing is, moreover, declaredly prophetic. The quotations of it in the New Testament show: (1) that it was, before the time of Jesus, a recognized part of the Old Testament; (2) that it refers to Messiah ( Mat 8:17 Mar 15:28 Luk 22:37 Jhn 12:38 Act 8:28-35 Rom 10:16 1Pe 2:21-25 ). The indirect allusions to it still more clearly prove the Messianic interpretation; so universal was that interpretation, that it is simply referred to in connection with the atoning virtue of His death, without being formally quoted ( Mar 9:12 Rom 4:25 1Cr 15:3 2Cr 5:21 1Pe 1:19 2:21-25 1Jo 3:5 ).
The genuineness of the passage is certain; for the Jews would not have forged it, since it is opposed to their notion of Messiah, as a triumphant temporal prince. The Christians could not have forged it; for the Jews, the enemies of Christianity, are "our librarians" [PALEY]. The Jews try to evade its force by the figment of two Messiahs, one a suffering Messiah (Ben Joseph), the other a triumphant Messiah (Ben David).
HILLEL maintained that Messiah has already come in the person of Hezekiah. BUXTORF states that many of the modern Rabbins believe that He has been come a good while, but will not manifest Himself because of the sins of the Jews. But the ancient Jews, as the Chaldee paraphrast, Jonathan, refer it to Messiah; so the Medrasch Tauchuma (a commentary on the Pentateuch); also Rabbi Moses Haddarschan (see HENGSTENBERG, Christology of the Old Testament).
Some explain it of the Jewish people, either in the Babylonish exile, or in their present sufferings and dispersion. Others, the pious portion of the nation taken collectively, whose sufferings made a vicarious satisfaction for the ungodly. Others, Isaiah, or Jeremiah [GESENIUS], the prophets collectively.
But an individual is plainly described: he suffers voluntarily, innocently, patiently, and as the efficient cause of the righteousness of His people, which holds good of none other but Messiah
( Isa 53:4-6, 9, 11 ; contrast Jer 20:7 15:10-21 Psa 137:8, 9 ). Isa 53:9 can hold good of none other. The objection that the sufferings ( Isa 53:1-10 ) referred to are represented as past, the glorification alone as future ( Isa 52:13-15 53:11, 12 ) arises from not seeing that the prophet takes his stand in the midst of the scenes which he describes as future. The greater nearness of the first advent, and the interval between it and the second, are implied by the use of the past tense as to the first, the future as to the second.
Behold--awakening attention to the striking picture of Messiah that follows (compare Jhn 19:5, 14 ).
my servant--Messiah ( Isa 42:1 ).
deal prudently--rather, "prosper" [GESENIUS] as the parallel clause favors ( Isa 53:10 ). Or, uniting both meanings, "shall reign well" [HENGSTENBERG]. This verse sets forth in the beginning the ultimate issue of His sufferings, the description of which follows: the conclusion ( Isa 53:12 ) corresponds; the section ( Isa 52:13 53:12 ) begins as it ends with His final glory.
extolled--elevated ( Mar 16:19 Eph 1:20-22 1Pe 3:22 ).
14, 15. Summary of Messiah's history, which is set forth more in detail in the fifty-third chapter. "Just as many were astonished (accompanied with aversion, Jer 18:16 19:8 ), &c.; his visage, &c.; so shall He sprinkle," &c.; Israel in this answers to its antitype Messiah, now "an astonishment and byword" ( Deu 28:37 ), hereafter about to be a blessing and means of salvation to many nations ( Isa 2:2, 3 Mic 5:7 ).
thee; his--Such changes of persons are common in Hebrew poetry.
marred--Hebrew, "disfigurement"; abstract for concrete; not only disfigured, but disfigurement itself.
more than man--CASTALIO translates, "so that it was no longer that of a man" (compare Psa 22:6 ). The more perfect we may suppose the "body prepared" ( Hbr 10:5 ) for Him by God, the sadder by contrast was the "marring" of His visage and form.
15. sprinkle many--GESENIUS, for the antithesis to "be astonished," translates, "shall cause . . . to exult." But the word universally in the Old Testament means either to sprinkle with blood, as the high priest makes an expiation ( Lev 4:6 16:18, 19 ); or with water, to purify ( Eze 36:25 ; compare as to the Spirit, Act 2:33 ), both appropriate to Messiah ( Jhn 13:8 Hbr 9:13, 14 10:22 12:24 1Pe 1:2 ). The antithesis is sufficient without any forced rendering. Many were astonished; so many (not merely men, but) nations shall be sprinkled. They were amazed at such an abject person claiming to be Messiah; yet it is He who shall justify and purify. Men were dumb with the amazement of scorn at one marred more than the lowest of men, yet the highest: even kings ( Isa 49:7, 23 ) shall be dumb with awe and veneration ("shut . . . mouths"; Job 29:9, 10 Mic 7:16 ).
that . . . not . . . told them--the reason why kings shall so venerate them; the wonders of redemption, which had not been before told them, shall then be announced to them, wonders such as they had never heard or seen parallelled ( Isa 55:1 Rom 15:21 16:25, 26 ).
Matthew Henry:
Isa 52:13-15
Here, as in other places, for the confirming of the faith of God’s people and the encouraging of their hope in the promises of temporal deliverances, the prophet passes from them to speak of the great salvation which should in the fulness of time be wrought out by the Messiah. As the prophecy of Christ’s incarnation was intended for the ratification of the promise of their deliverance from the Assyrian army, so this of Christ’s death and resurrection is to confirm the promise of their return out of Babylon; for both these salvations were typical of the great redemption and the prophecies of them had a reference to that.
This prophecy, which begins here and is continued to the end of the next chapter, points as plainly as can be at Jesus Christ; the ancient Jews understood it of the Messiah, though the modern Jews take a great deal of pains to pervert it, and some of ours (no friends therein to the Christian religion) will have it understood of Jeremiah; but Philip, who hence preached Christ to the eunuch, has put it past dispute that of him speaks the prophet this, of him and of no other man, Acts 8:34, 35. Here,
I. God owns Christ to be both commissioned and qualified for his undertaking. 1. He is appointed to it. "He is my servant, whom I employ and therefore will uphold.’’ In his undertaking he does his Father’s will, seeks his Father’s honour, and serves the interests of his Father’s kingdom. 2. He is qualified for it. He shall deal prudently, for the spirit of wisdom and understanding shall rest upon him, ch. 11:2. The word is used concerning David when he behaved himself wisely, 1 Sa. 18:14. Christ is wisdom itself, and, in the contriving and carrying on the work of our redemption, there appeared much of the wisdom of God in a mystery, 1 Co. 2:7. Christ, when he was here upon earth, dealt very prudently, to the admiration of all.
II. He gives a short prospect both of his humiliation and his exaltation. See here, 1. How he humbled himself: Many were astonished at him, as they were at David when by reason of his sorrows and troubles he became a wonder unto many, Ps. 71:7. Many wondered to see what base usage he met with, how inveterate people were against him, how inhuman, and what indignities were done him: His visage was marred more than any man’s when he was buffeted, smitten on the cheek, and crowned with thorns, and hid not his face from shame and spitting. His face was foul with weeping, for he was a man of sorrows; he that really was fairer than the children of men had his face spoiled with the abuses that were done him. Never was man used so barbarously; his form, when he took upon him the form of a servant, was more mean and abject than that of any of the sons of men. Those that saw him said, "Surely never man looked so miserably, a worm and no man,’’ Ps. 22:6. The nation abhorred him (ch. 49:7), treated him as the off-scouring of all things. Never was sorrow like unto his sorrow. 2. How highly God exalted him, and exalted him because he humbled himself. Three words are used for this (v. 13): He shalt be exalted and extolled and be very high. God shall exalt him, men shall extol him, and with both he shall be very high, higher than the highest, higher than the heavens. He shall prosper in his work, and succeed in it, and that shall raise him very high. (1.) Many nations shall be the better for him, for he shall sprinkle them, and not the Jews only; the blood of sprinkling shall be applied to their consciences, to purify them. He suffered, and died, and so sprinkled many nations; for in his death there was a fountain opened, Zec. 13:1. He shall sprinkle many nations by his heavenly doctrine, which shall drop as the rain and distil as the dew. Moses’s did so only on one nation (Deu. 32:2), but Christ’s on many nations. He shall do it by baptism, which is the washing of the body with pure water, Heb. 10:22. So that this promise had its accomplishment when Christ sent his apostles to disciple all nations, by baptizing or sprinkling them. (2.) The great ones of the nation shall show him respect: Kings shall shut their mouths at him, that is, they shall not open their mouths against him, as they have done, to contradict and blaspheme his sacred oracles; nay, they shall acquiesce in, and be well pleased with, the methods he takes of setting up his kingdom in the world; they shall with great humility and reverence receive his oracles and laws, as those who, when they heard Job’s wisdom, after his speech spoke not again, Job 29:9, 22. Kings shall see and arise, ch. 49:7. (3.) The mystery which was kept secret from the beginning of the world shall by him be made known to all nations for the obedience of faith, as the apostle speaks, Rom. 16:25, 26. That which had not been told them shall they see; the gospel brings to light things new and unheard of, which will awaken the attention and engage the reverence of kings and kingdoms. This is applied to the preaching of the gospel in the Gentile world, Rom. 15:21. These words are there quoted according to the Septuagint translation: To whom he was not spoken of they shall see, and those that have not heard shall understand. As the things revealed had long been kept secret, so the persons to whom they were revealed had long been kept in the dark; but now they shall see and consider the glory of God shining in the face of Christ, which before they had not been told ofthey had not heard. That shall be discovered to them by the gospel of Christ which could never be told them by all the learning of their philosophers, or the art of their diviners, or any of their pagan oracles. Much had been said in the Old Testament concerning the Messiah; much had been told them, and they had heard it. But, as the queen of Sheba found concerning Solomon, what they shall see in him, when he comes, shall far exceed what had been told them. Christ disappointed the expectations of those who looked for a Messiah according to their fancies, as the carnal Jews, but outdid theirs who looked for such a Messiah as was promised. According to their faith, nay, and beyond it, it was to them.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

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 Message 41 by Faith, posted 07-27-2013 3:26 AM Faith has not replied

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 Message 44 by ramoss, posted 07-27-2013 9:07 AM Faith has not replied

  
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